A Perfect People, A Perfect World, or; The Eugenics Movement

[Smooth Operator]

Fully preventing genetic defects and diseases is impossible, just so we are clear.

And the only intelligent approach to this is education, parents should be informed on what kind of problems their genes are prone to cause.
Now I expect any half way decent person wouldn't want their child to be severely impaired, or atleast be prepared for whatever comes.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I've been reading the Dune series recently and I'd have to disagree with Eugenics from reading that. The Bene Gesserit are dicks.

 

[Tselis]

Once again I say, the exception, not the rule. How many millions suffer, terribly, who might not need to? You sound like a great person, someone I wouldn't mind knowing, and I'm an anti-social recluse (Bipolar, PTSD, Depression, etc). However, the idea of eliminating the genetic scourges that plague us is one I believe firmly that we must pursue. It must be pursued in an ethical fashion, but it must be pursued none-the-less.

Thank you for your kind words, but if you knew me better I think that you would find them unfounded .

While I agree that many people are suffering and this is certainly a tragedy, many would rather the chance to suffer than not have the chance to enjoy the rest of life. Much great genius has been wrought from many things that Eugenics would fix. Would we have Van Gogh with out depression? Einstein without Aspergers? Socrates without Schizophrenia? Hawkings without Lou Gehrig's? Yes these are all exceptions, but is not the exceptions that make the difference?

Speaking from a strictly human point of view, I would rather face the chance that science will not find an alternative way to cure these diseases. I would rather face suffering, then not have the chance to fight it. If we remove chance from the equation, if we remove all possibility of suffering do we not make life all the more bitter? Do we honestly sacrifice the exception? Will life truly be better without suffering?

It's hard to speak philosophically when your six year old tries to understand why she can't make friends and do things that other kids her age can do. It's hard to see the forest when the little eyes in front of you are clouded with confusion, and you know that there's nothing you can do. Philosophy offers more than religion, but still not enough to help ease the restlessness of the child who is uncomfortable in her own mind. It's just not enough. We need to do more.

 

[Tselis]

I've been reading the Dune series recently and I'd have to disagree with Eugenics from reading that. The Bene Gesserit are dicks.

1) Yes, yes they are, big time.
2) The series dropped off after the first one, imho.

 

[chaosyoshimage]

There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I read somewhere that communism works well for up to 14 people, add 1 more and the whole thing breaks down. The basic family unit is formed around communism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, now I'm up far past when I should have gone to bed, and am just haunting the forums for shits and grins. At least I still have my oreos.

Oo! Can I have some?!

I have a shrink gun and no qualms about using it. ;.>

Fine, be that way >.>

There are oreos out there for you, you just have to go out and get them, these are mine. I love them and pet them, and pop them in my mouth and crunch. =D

Not again, I need to stay away from cookies, it's not...not...good for me...

GIMMIE THOSE OREOS!!!@!!111

SHRINK GUN!!!!!!!!

A shrink gun won't work on me, for I cannot become a smaller man than I already am...

So, I have your cookies now...

1) I already ate them, so, HA!
2) Wow, isn't your boy/girl friend supposed to say that?

I totally didn't realize how perverted that sounded until it was too late. Also, if these aren't your cookies than were the devil did they come from?

What was this thread suppose to be about again?

Hmm, I seem to have hijacked the thread. Oops. On the other hand, I'm haviong trouble typing, since I'm lmaughind so harfd.

"haviong" "lmaughind" and "harfd", I don't think you're having trouble typing, that's got to be code for something, it's too suspicous...

That or you typed the Captcha in the wrong place...

No, it's just me being up way too late, with too much stress and too little sleep. I did manage to not snort my oreos though. Crumbs in the sinuses, no good ...

Don't tell a crazed conspiracy theorist that there's no code there, then he'll KNOW it's code. Too much stress and too little sleep is a good excuse, been there done that...

Eugenics, yeah, eugenics, such a controversial topic that um is controversial...

 

[drthmik]

in a society that practices Eugenics these are some people who would never have been aloud to be born or would have been killed at birth;

Jim Carey, Robert Downey Jr., Robin Williams,
Ludwig Von Beethoven, Vincent Van Gogh, Jimi Hendrix,
Winston Churchill, Theodore Roosevelt, Mark Twain,
Edgar Allen Poe, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln,
Mother Theresa, Ghengis Khan, Queen Victoria,
Mozart, Agatha Christie, Alexander Graham Bell,
Howard Hughes, George Burns, Hans Christian Andersen,
Leonardo Da Vinci, Magic Johnson, Thomas Edison,
Walt Disney, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, George Patton,
Benjamin Franklin, Marilyn Monroe, George Washington,
Henry Ford, Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla,
Thomas Jefferson, Michael J. Fox, Muhammad Ali,
Pope John Paul II, Jesse Jackson, Doc Holliday,
Lou Gehrig, Stephen Hawking, Napoleon Bonaparte,
Charles Dickens, Alfred Nobel, Michelangelo,
Julius Caesar, Aristotle, George Frederick Handel,
Lewis Carrol, & Alexander the Great

Some of these people are among the most famous and influential people in all of human history. they are authors, artists, businessmen, inventors, leaders and rulers.
By it's very nature Eugenics will throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Tselis]

There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I read somewhere that communism works well for up to 14 people, add 1 more and the whole thing breaks down. The basic family unit is formed around communism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, now I'm up far past when I should have gone to bed, and am just haunting the forums for shits and grins. At least I still have my oreos.

Oo! Can I have some?!

I have a shrink gun and no qualms about using it. ;.>

Fine, be that way >.>

There are oreos out there for you, you just have to go out and get them, these are mine. I love them and pet them, and pop them in my mouth and crunch. =D

Not again, I need to stay away from cookies, it's not...not...good for me...

GIMMIE THOSE OREOS!!!@!!111

SHRINK GUN!!!!!!!!

A shrink gun won't work on me, for I cannot become a smaller man than I already am...

So, I have your cookies now...

1) I already ate them, so, HA!
2) Wow, isn't your boy/girl friend supposed to say that?

I totally didn't realize how perverted that sounded until it was too late. Also, if these aren't your cookies than were the devil did they come from?

What was this thread suppose to be about again?

Hmm, I seem to have hijacked the thread. Oops. On the other hand, I'm haviong trouble typing, since I'm lmaughind so harfd.

"haviong" "lmaughind" and "harfd", I don't think you're having trouble typing, that's got to be code for something, it's too suspicous...

That or you typed the Captcha in the wrong place...

No, it's just me being up way too late, with too much stress and too little sleep. I did manage to not snort my oreos though. Crumbs in the sinuses, no good ...

Don't tell a crazed conspiracy theorist that there's no code there, then he'll KNOW it's code. Too much stress and too little sleep is a good excuse, been there done that...

Eugenics, yeah, eugenics, such a controversial topic that um is controversial...

Controversy + Shrink Gun = AWAY!!!!

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I've been reading the Dune series recently and I'd have to disagree with Eugenics from reading that. The Bene Gesserit are dicks.

1) Yes, yes they are, big time.
2) The series dropped off after the first one, imho.

I kinda liked Dune Messiah purely because you could just see that everything is going to end badly. I'm half-way through Children of Dune right now and some of the characters are kinda cool, but the story itself is nowhere near as good as the first book.

 

[vxicepickxv]

With genetic drift, it's actually almost impossible to properly perform a eugenics movement, just because random mutations say "no". I though the concept was interesting, and then I realized that ultimately, the only way to do one would be through a combination of genetic engineering and cloning, because ultimately, DNA and RNA will split enough for genetic drift, even in a single generation.

Plus, once the DNA is broken down enough, cybernetics will replace flesh, and now we're all mechanical husks for the Reapers.

 

[chaosyoshimage]

There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I read somewhere that communism works well for up to 14 people, add 1 more and the whole thing breaks down. The basic family unit is formed around communism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, now I'm up far past when I should have gone to bed, and am just haunting the forums for shits and grins. At least I still have my oreos.

Oo! Can I have some?!

I have a shrink gun and no qualms about using it. ;.>

Fine, be that way >.>

There are oreos out there for you, you just have to go out and get them, these are mine. I love them and pet them, and pop them in my mouth and crunch. =D

Not again, I need to stay away from cookies, it's not...not...good for me...

GIMMIE THOSE OREOS!!!@!!111

SHRINK GUN!!!!!!!!

A shrink gun won't work on me, for I cannot become a smaller man than I already am...

So, I have your cookies now...

1) I already ate them, so, HA!
2) Wow, isn't your boy/girl friend supposed to say that?

I totally didn't realize how perverted that sounded until it was too late. Also, if these aren't your cookies than were the devil did they come from?

What was this thread suppose to be about again?

Hmm, I seem to have hijacked the thread. Oops. On the other hand, I'm haviong trouble typing, since I'm lmaughind so harfd.

"haviong" "lmaughind" and "harfd", I don't think you're having trouble typing, that's got to be code for something, it's too suspicous...

That or you typed the Captcha in the wrong place...

No, it's just me being up way too late, with too much stress and too little sleep. I did manage to not snort my oreos though. Crumbs in the sinuses, no good ...

Don't tell a crazed conspiracy theorist that there's no code there, then he'll KNOW it's code. Too much stress and too little sleep is a good excuse, been there done that...

Eugenics, yeah, eugenics, such a controversial topic that um is controversial...

Controversy + Shrink Gun = AWAY!!!!

If only we could use a shrink gun to minimilize the controversy in other controversial subjects that shouldn't be controversial. Yeah, this thread has been derailed like crazy, shrink guns, random controversy, Dune, and Oreo cookies. I like it! If we had eugenics we'd never get conversations like this...

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

Well I certainly have a problem with Eugenics considering it nearly nullified the possibility of my existence. My one grandmother was 'sterilized' because she was considered mentally retarded. Apparently the sterilization didn't work for whatever reason and she was able to have my mom and uncle. Now I'm alive and am not only not retarded but considered 'academically gifted' with a tested IQ of over 130 (which puts me in the top 2%).

So yeah, I have a problem with Eugenics programs such as forced sterilization or making it so certain people can't have children. It isn't always effective (in that harmful genetic mutations will still occur), we still are accurate enough with genetics, and giving people the power to sterilize others doesn't seem like the best idea. What happens when some of them start deciding that people of a certain race are 'undesirable' as well?

 

[Tselis]

Plus, once the DNA is broken down enough, cybernetics will replace flesh, and now we're all mechanical husks for the Reapers.

Dude, way to be depressing when I'm out of oreos.

 

[Tselis]

I've been reading the Dune series recently and I'd have to disagree with Eugenics from reading that. The Bene Gesserit are dicks.

1) Yes, yes they are, big time.
2) The series dropped off after the first one, imho.

I kinda liked Dune Messiah purely because you could just see that everything is going to end badly. I'm half-way through Children of Dune right now and some of the characters are kinda cool, but the story itself is nowhere near as good as the first book.

He should have just left off at the first one. Or maybe picked up with totally new characters in another section of the universe. With how good the first one was, trying to piggy back off of it was bound to not be as good.

 

[drthmik]

As to the idea of promoting "good genes" through positive reinforcement
that is what the movie Gattica is ABOUT!
no one stopped the parents in Gattica from having the main character
no one killed said character for being a "genetic inferior"
they just labeled him "worthless" and denied him access to anything positive, like school, a good job, a wife, children, hope and a future.

 

[AperioContra]

It's hard to speak philosophically when your six year old tries to understand why she can't make friends and do things that other kids her age can do. It's hard to see the forest when the little eyes in front of you are clouded with confusion, and you know that there's nothing you can do. Philosophy offers more than religion, but still not enough to help ease the restlessness of the child who is uncomfortable in her own mind. It's just not enough. We need to do more.

First, my sympathies are with you. I cannot begin to understand what you are going through. And I agree, we need to do more.

We need to find cures, ways to stave back genetic stigmas. Simply breeding it out is not a solution, it's quite literally killing the patient to cure the disease. Genetic diseases have been cured before using modern medicine. There is no reason to believe that it would be impossible to cure these things as time goes on through practical medicine. We don't need to resort to breeding them out when we have the potential to make them a mute point.

Oh, and Dune is awesome.

 

[Tselis]

There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I read somewhere that communism works well for up to 14 people, add 1 more and the whole thing breaks down. The basic family unit is formed around communism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, now I'm up far past when I should have gone to bed, and am just haunting the forums for shits and grins. At least I still have my oreos.

Oo! Can I have some?!

I have a shrink gun and no qualms about using it. ;.>

Fine, be that way >.>

There are oreos out there for you, you just have to go out and get them, these are mine. I love them and pet them, and pop them in my mouth and crunch. =D

Not again, I need to stay away from cookies, it's not...not...good for me...

GIMMIE THOSE OREOS!!!@!!111

SHRINK GUN!!!!!!!!

A shrink gun won't work on me, for I cannot become a smaller man than I already am...

So, I have your cookies now...

1) I already ate them, so, HA!
2) Wow, isn't your boy/girl friend supposed to say that?

I totally didn't realize how perverted that sounded until it was too late. Also, if these aren't your cookies than were the devil did they come from?

What was this thread suppose to be about again?

Hmm, I seem to have hijacked the thread. Oops. On the other hand, I'm haviong trouble typing, since I'm lmaughind so harfd.

"haviong" "lmaughind" and "harfd", I don't think you're having trouble typing, that's got to be code for something, it's too suspicous...

That or you typed the Captcha in the wrong place...

No, it's just me being up way too late, with too much stress and too little sleep. I did manage to not snort my oreos though. Crumbs in the sinuses, no good ...

Don't tell a crazed conspiracy theorist that there's no code there, then he'll KNOW it's code. Too much stress and too little sleep is a good excuse, been there done that...

Eugenics, yeah, eugenics, such a controversial topic that um is controversial...

Controversy + Shrink Gun = AWAY!!!!

If only we could use a shrink gun to minimilize the controversy in other controversial subjects that shouldn't be controversial. Yeah, this thread has been derailed like crazy, shrink guns, random controversy, Dune, and Oreo cookies. I like it! If we had eugenics we'd never get conversations like this...

I think the people of Dune probably could have done with some oreos and shrink guns. I think they would have been happier.

 

[Shaoken]

I'll try to keep this brief.

The problem that eugenic supporters fail to understand is that we don't fully understand how the human genome works. We can identify some heditary conditions and DNA and things like that, but we have nowhere near the amount of knowledge and expertise needed to pull off something like Eugenics is supposed to be. So it's perfectly likely that in an attempt to "breed out" these diseases we'll end up making future generations weaker against certain diseases and viruses. Genetic Diversity is incredibly important for hte survival of humanity, so why fuck with it?

Secondly, I hear a lot of "those are the exceptions, not the rule" when people point out how Stephen Hawking and the people like him wouldn't have been born with these programs. But honestly, with the amount of knowledge that Hawking has given science, he's easily worth the "cost" that all others with his condition "inflict" on society. So I ask you supporters of Eugenics; you the hell are you to decide another person's self worth before they even exist?

Finally, I'll conclude that Eugenics solves nothing, it's merely running away from a problem rather than dealing with it. Yes, some of these diseases really, really suck, but why should we just try and avoid people being born to not deal with them when we could devote our time and effort do discovering cures for them? We humans have managed to come a long way in a relatively short time span; think about all the diseases and conditions we've cured in the last few centuries. Why should we take away people's freedom to try and breed these diseases out when we can advanced our knowledge of the human body to hte point where we can fix these problems after conception?

 

[chaosyoshimage]

There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I read somewhere that communism works well for up to 14 people, add 1 more and the whole thing breaks down. The basic family unit is formed around communism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, now I'm up far past when I should have gone to bed, and am just haunting the forums for shits and grins. At least I still have my oreos.

Oo! Can I have some?!

I have a shrink gun and no qualms about using it. ;.>

Fine, be that way >.>

There are oreos out there for you, you just have to go out and get them, these are mine. I love them and pet them, and pop them in my mouth and crunch. =D

Not again, I need to stay away from cookies, it's not...not...good for me...

GIMMIE THOSE OREOS!!!@!!111

SHRINK GUN!!!!!!!!

A shrink gun won't work on me, for I cannot become a smaller man than I already am...

So, I have your cookies now...

1) I already ate them, so, HA!
2) Wow, isn't your boy/girl friend supposed to say that?

I totally didn't realize how perverted that sounded until it was too late. Also, if these aren't your cookies than were the devil did they come from?

What was this thread suppose to be about again?

Hmm, I seem to have hijacked the thread. Oops. On the other hand, I'm haviong trouble typing, since I'm lmaughind so harfd.

"haviong" "lmaughind" and "harfd", I don't think you're having trouble typing, that's got to be code for something, it's too suspicous...

That or you typed the Captcha in the wrong place...

No, it's just me being up way too late, with too much stress and too little sleep. I did manage to not snort my oreos though. Crumbs in the sinuses, no good ...

Don't tell a crazed conspiracy theorist that there's no code there, then he'll KNOW it's code. Too much stress and too little sleep is a good excuse, been there done that...

Eugenics, yeah, eugenics, such a controversial topic that um is controversial...

Controversy + Shrink Gun = AWAY!!!!

If only we could use a shrink gun to minimilize the controversy in other controversial subjects that shouldn't be controversial. Yeah, this thread has been derailed like crazy, shrink guns, random controversy, Dune, and Oreo cookies. I like it! If we had eugenics we'd never get conversations like this...

I think the people of Dune probably could have done with some oreos and shrink guns. I think they would have been happier.

What society wouldn't be happier with shrink guns and Oreos? I'm really at struggling to come up with one...

 

[Tselis]

It's hard to speak philosophically when your six year old tries to understand why she can't make friends and do things that other kids her age can do. It's hard to see the forest when the little eyes in front of you are clouded with confusion, and you know that there's nothing you can do. Philosophy offers more than religion, but still not enough to help ease the restlessness of the child who is uncomfortable in her own mind. It's just not enough. We need to do more.

First, my sympathies are with you. I cannot begin to understand what you are going through. And I agree, we need to do more.

We need to find cures, ways to stave back genetic stigmas. Simply breeding it out is not a solution, it's quite literally killing the patient to cure the disease. Genetic diseases have been cured before using modern medicine. There is no reason to believe that it would be impossible to cure these things as time goes on through practical medicine. We don't need to resort to breeding them out when we have the potential to make them a mute point.

Oh, and Dune is awesome.

Thank you. Like I said, I'm lucky that she's high functioning. Alot of other kids aren't. I'm not saying that eugenics is the only option, and I do agree that it is more on the scorched earth side than not, but I'm open to anything. Well, anything ethical, even if it is radical. I have no problems with human experimentation so long as the subjects are all volunteers, aware of what they are getting into and have appropriate care for whatever side effects might happen to them. So long as we are moving towards bettering ourselves, through whatever means, then I'll be happy. I know that my little girl will probably never be 'cured'. Her brain is malformed, she was born that way. The lobes are asymmetrical, certain parts don't function as much as they should, others are hyperactive. Her skull is subtly misshaped. There is no help for that. What I want is for others to not have to go through what she's going through. I want better.

EDIT: Yes, the first book was a page turner.

 

[Tselis]

There is literally a thread on this every week, isn't there? Like some one made a joke about it the other day, it was worth a few chuckles, but I didn't think it was true...

As for my opinion, just like communism, it sounds good until you try it...

I read somewhere that communism works well for up to 14 people, add 1 more and the whole thing breaks down. The basic family unit is formed around communism, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well, now I'm up far past when I should have gone to bed, and am just haunting the forums for shits and grins. At least I still have my oreos.

Oo! Can I have some?!

I have a shrink gun and no qualms about using it. ;.>

Fine, be that way >.>

There are oreos out there for you, you just have to go out and get them, these are mine. I love them and pet them, and pop them in my mouth and crunch. =D

Not again, I need to stay away from cookies, it's not...not...good for me...

GIMMIE THOSE OREOS!!!@!!111

SHRINK GUN!!!!!!!!

A shrink gun won't work on me, for I cannot become a smaller man than I already am...

So, I have your cookies now...

1) I already ate them, so, HA!
2) Wow, isn't your boy/girl friend supposed to say that?

I totally didn't realize how perverted that sounded until it was too late. Also, if these aren't your cookies than were the devil did they come from?

What was this thread suppose to be about again?

Hmm, I seem to have hijacked the thread. Oops. On the other hand, I'm haviong trouble typing, since I'm lmaughind so harfd.

"haviong" "lmaughind" and "harfd", I don't think you're having trouble typing, that's got to be code for something, it's too suspicous...

That or you typed the Captcha in the wrong place...

No, it's just me being up way too late, with too much stress and too little sleep. I did manage to not snort my oreos though. Crumbs in the sinuses, no good ...

Don't tell a crazed conspiracy theorist that there's no code there, then he'll KNOW it's code. Too much stress and too little sleep is a good excuse, been there done that...

Eugenics, yeah, eugenics, such a controversial topic that um is controversial...

Controversy + Shrink Gun = AWAY!!!!

If only we could use a shrink gun to minimilize the controversy in other controversial subjects that shouldn't be controversial. Yeah, this thread has been derailed like crazy, shrink guns, random controversy, Dune, and Oreo cookies. I like it! If we had eugenics we'd never get conversations like this...

I think the people of Dune probably could have done with some oreos and shrink guns. I think they would have been happier.

What society wouldn't be happier with shrink guns and Oreos? I'm really at struggling to come up with one...

A society filled with depressed mad people.