A point of contraversy (part 1) - Buying a game used is as bad as pirating?

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Stall

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Fernadette said:
Let's turn this around even further. You can do whatever you'd like with that disc, correct? So what is stopping you from making COPIES of it? I mean, you can do whatever you'd like with the disc, correct? It isn't infeasible to argue in such a way that you can copy a game while just owning the disc and not the data. This is the problem with conveying ownership to games, which is why publishers and developers license them to you.

But this way off base from my original post anyways. All I was arguing is that used game sales and piracy both cause a developer damage in the exact same way, which is why a developer might want to take action to combat and mitigate the effect of used games sales. I'm not trying to argue about the legality of used games... all I was trying to say is that both hurt developers.
 

God's Clown

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Used games are cheaper, thus people want to buy it used. Publishers are greedy bastards, thus the price new games at 60 bucks. 60 is far too expensive. They need to put the price back at 40-50 bucks. I would buy a lot more games new if they were even 10 bucks cheaper.
 

Fernadette

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Feb 9, 2011
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Stall said:
Fernadette said:
Snip.
What's stopping me is a little thing called "Copyright". It's the same thing that stops people from making handwritten copies of books, and copies of movies. I was talking about the physical object, not the software on it. Like a music CD, or an AOL disc that people used to make weird yard designs out of. Any physical object that I own, from my TV, books, clothes, etc, is mine to do with as I please.

If I want to give everything away, I can. If I want to sell it all on Ebay, I can. If I want to pile it all up and melt it into "modern art", I can (within the confines of the fire code). Can I take my music, put it on my computer and onto a torrent site? Not within the confines of Copyright law. Can I take that same CD and sell or give it to Uncle Jimbo down the street? Yes. Yes I can.

Because that physical object is mine, just not the actual information on that disc. So if I want to sell it, throw it, break it, or what have you, I can. Because I own that object.

Also, when have I ever signed a license agreement with every game publisher? I haven't. Sure newer games will have an EULA, but what about prior generation games? Do I not own my NES games either? Can they take them away from me?
 

Baresark

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Everyone needs to look at it in completely different terms, to be honest:

As human beings, we have a concept called right of ownership. Basically, this states we have a right to certain things, including but not limited to the right to benefit from the fruits of our own labor (the opposite of this is slavery, where this is little or no personal benefit from our labor), and the right to own things we purchase with our money.

The reason why it's not the same is because the company has had the benefit of our business. We have purchased "anonymous game" from them and given them $60 of our hard earned dollars. With that comes the right of owning said physical game. According to our right of ownership, we then are allowed to turn around and sell that game to anyone we wish at whatever price was agreed upon.

Piracy is the outright theft of a game where no money has exchanged hands. The publisher does not get our money, the people who are distributing said stolen property are not getting money for it (in general, the black market is a different story altogether).

I see posts arguing about people feeling "entitled" to entertainment. This is of course false. It's not that people are "entitled" to play games for cheaper, it's that the people who have purchased a physical copy of a game are entitled to sell it to whomever they wish.

People are grossly over simplifying this subject ad nauseum. I'm not saying don't support the publisher/developer. I am saying that if a company can offer the same product for cheaper, they are simply being competitive and the consumer (read: you and I) benefit from that. Anyone who denies the benefit of this are completely idiotic and are not arguing from a stand point of rationality and logic, they are simply arguing an emotional argument with nothing to back it up. That is the very basic concept of Capitalism. When a company goes out of it's way to deny products to people, they hurt the entire market.

You are likewise making the same argument that anyone who sells the new games on sale for less than the MSRP price is hurting the publishers/developers because they are selling it for cheaper than the Publisher wants you to sell it for. Check Amazon sometime. They are always selling new games for less than Gamestop.

That is one man's opinion, backed up by hard data... but still my opinion.
 

voidfalcon

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to say that the used game sellers should pay the developers is stupid. i understand they feel cheated for sales but honestly i cant stand behind a process that screws only the people who actually wanted the product. the used game sellers still make just as much money off each sale, the consumer is the one that gets screwed. its like saying an antique store should send an portion of sales to whoever made the vases they sell. which i guess in this metaphor/analogy thing would make the online pass a small explosive stuck into every vase in case you try and show it to someone. the original owner gets nothing out of it but the sick satisfaction of knowing that someone out there is pissed off about that vase.

tbh i just tldr-ed myself. post may be incoherent :D
 

WaruTaru

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KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life said:
Asserting that "people" will extinguish interest by experiencing a form of media is inaccurate. I for one have, in fact, bought new copies of games after I've experienced the game from start to finish. I've also re-bought new copies of games that have been broken on me. I've also bought books and films after experiencing them in their entirety. And I cannot possibly be the only person on Earth who has done this.

And then there is the concept of used book stores. The existence of stores which exclusively sell previously owned works has not sunk any of the large publishers. Game stores which allow used sales are also offering new titles.

"Legal pirate" Is a very FOX News-y label. It is not theft of someone else's property, but the sale of one's own property.

And then there is the matter of circulation and exposure. Let's say ten years from now, someone buys a used copy of RAGE on the cheap, near the end of the Xbox 9001's lifespan; they take it home, play it, and find that there are sections of the game which are made out clearly to be accessible, are not actually accessible. The person then finds out that they needed DLC from the now-dead Xbox 360 Marketplace in order to access the content. That content has now officially been killed. Nobody will ever be able to experience what was locked out, as most copies are now deep in the cycle of resales. Then, when this person finds out that RAGE 55 is coming out, will they be inclined to play it at all, when they know that the creators of the series willingly locked him out of content?

And then there is the case of "Give them an inch...". If this practice of locking-out content from people is accepted as valid now, where does it stop? Why not lock out portions of the game for people who don't buy the special edition? Why not, instead of making the content free DLC for new copies, make it cheaper DLC for new copies? This strategy of punishing used buyers instead of rewarding new buyers is another testing of the water. We've already seen people accept games being shipped broken, and seen that people are willing to pay for content that is already on the disc, so why not go even further? In a world where so much profiteering and "Ending is better than mending" philosophy is spread in business, people who let those who should be providing us, the consumer, with services instead punish us for performing completely legal transactions outside the parameters they want, is deeply disheartening.
I did say "...if you have had enough of it...", which you clearly haven't, hence you buying a new copy.

The book business is in no way comparable to the game industry. Large book chains rarely (I think its safe to say never here) sell used books. All their books are brand new. Conversely, large gameshop chains are doing the exact opposite. The chain itself is doing more harm than good by selling used games. Number plays an important part here, and gameshops are doing the exact opposite of helping the developers. And they have a very, very large number to support their actions.

Your property ownership lies with the physical item, not what is within. Look at my previous post, about the case of Vernor v Autodesk. You have a LICENSE, you do not have OWNERSHIP.

Yes. Yes he will. And I am willing to bet on that. (1) Games that old will not run on Xbox9001 or whatever future gen of Xbox. Backward incompatibility would have rendered the game unplayable in the first place. (2) Having a lock-out portion in a game is the same as loosing multiplayer features because the server closed 10 years ago. You are still locked out from part of the game.

Welcome to the real world, where everything that matters, everything that is good, and everything that is popular revolves around the dollar-sign. Studios fold when ends don't meet. Only the large giants of the industry can take a beating and weather the storm. A gameshop selling used games do more harm to indies than the large publishers. Indies need every dollar they can get their hands on. You are not helping. And besides, the legality of your transaction is questioned.
 

WaruTaru

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Silas13013 said:
Stall said:
ace_of_something said:
Pardon the bluntness, but you are a spectacular moron. I mean a FUCKING spectacular moron. You twisted my words and used a horrible, HORRIBLE distortion of a concept to try to make a point.

Listen. You don't OWN a video game. That disc ISN'T THE GAME. The physical media has NOTHING to do with ownership. It is unimportant here. What is important is that data in the disc. You don't own that data. You are licensed to be able to use it. If you owned it, then why couldn't you make copies of it? If you owned it, why couldn't you distribute it? If you could OWN video games, then piracy would be LEGAL BECAUSE OF THE LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS OF OWNERSHIP. That is why you don't own games. You just are licensed to be able to use them. That disc you are holding IS NOT THE GAME. It is the CONTENT OF THE DISC THAT IS THE GAME. You do NOT OWN that content... you are merely allowed to use it.

Your analogy is crap for that exact reason: cars are physical property, but video games are intellectual property. The analogy is null and void here.

The people on this site are so dense sometimes.
(This only relates to the US)

The Supreme Court of the United States says you are wrong.
No, the Supreme Court says he might be right.
 

Vakz

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Perhaps everyone should be forced to buy new cars as well, since car manufacturers probably lose money on the used car-market as well. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if people were never allowed to sell their stuff? Everything you got tired of had to be thrown away. Never mind the increased pressure on natural resources. Never mind that the things you got bored of would just gather dust in a box, think of the developers and manufacturers!

If you insist on the 2nd hand market for games is as bad as piracy, NEVER again buy something used. Buy EVERYTHING new, including cars and everything else that will probably set you back tens of thousands of dollars. Don't have double standards, or your opinion isn't worth shit.
 

ryo02

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cutting content in a used game is saying I dont own the content I bought.

if I buy the full game I should own the full game and be able to sell the full game should I choose to do so.

if I bought it I own it the developers/publishers can keep their grubby hands off.

people try to justify the bull by saying people who buy used should give money to "them" well screw that theres two sides to that coin what of the rights of the one selling/trading a game they bought new.

sellers/traders who buy new INSTANTLY lose value on the game they just bought.
 

El Luck

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GrizzlerBorno said:
IKWerewolf said:
However does that mean we should be felling deep emotional guilt? I don't think so, we as humans always want the best deal so we always look for a way to save a bit of money; for Steam users its the sales and console users who can.

To summarise, I disagree in part you are paying something for the game and its not your fault that money is being held by the corporate retailers who are doing something as bad as pirating... not giving money to the publishers to make the games.
Here's what I posted to someone else who used that same logic on me just five minutes ago. Forgive me for being lazy but I literally just finished writing this:

GrizzlerBorno said:
El Luck said:
Why on earth should I be punished for looking for a good deal when its clearly the game retailer that's at fault? they sell it for cheaper (or slightly cheaper depending on the age of the game)
But...But Pirates get the best deals EVER, then! How can you beat the price of free?!

Or fuck Torrents. If you go to a DVD store in any shopping mall in any Indian city, you can get a bootleg double Dvd copy of ANY retail game for like.....~100 rupees. No DRM. No cut levels. No multiplayer though.... But still 100 rupees. That's literally 2 fucking Dollars! So Indian gamers are getting the best bargain deals of all time! And apparently you can't blame them for doing that?

And technically the gamers themselves aren't stealing cause they are paying some random third party that is not affiliated with any publishers, for their used games. Sound familiar?
It's true. You could say "Oh it's not my fault. I'm just looking for a good deal. It's Gamestop who's the enemy" And I reply "No shut up. It IS your fault. Just because you're paying somebody some money, doesn't absolve you of the fact that you're still not paying publishers to play their games. You're being conned so you're not at fault?
Yeah...looking back at what I wrote I really should have just shut up, ugh nevermind, I know for next time when I see a topic like this just to keep my mouth shut.
 

PlasmaFrog

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I don't get why publishers are acting like money-grubbing twits lately?

Used game sales have been around since when I was playing my first SNES. As a matter of fact, I got most of my game copies through either kindness, trading, or even buying them from other friends. It's never significantly hurt the developers or publishers in anyone since people are still being motivated to purchase their content.

Even then, comparing it to piracy? How the fuck is this as bad as piracy? With piracy, they get no sales, zero. At least with people buying used copies, they know that at one point that they at least made a profit from that one copy; rather than someone pirating the game.

Yes, I will agree, companies such as Gamestop might put a dent in their wallets just for selling a used copy that is roughly 10%- than a new copy. Even then, they're still purchasing new copies for sale. This is absolutely no reason to stomp a major part of the industry into the ground over slightly increased profits.

This is just plain, simple, greed. Publishers want more money even though each title that they generally pops out of their as profits millions of dollars a year. This is the kind of cancer-killing attitude that is ruining the game industry itself.
 

wulfy42

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In my opinion when someone buys a game they should own the rights to that game (to play it) and be able to pass those right on to others either by giving the game away or selling it. The game (the right to play it) has been sold already. You should have the ability to sell that right again, especially if you don't like it.

Making copies of the game on the other hand and selling those would be illegal/unethical....which is basically what piracy is (if they even bought the game in the first place).

We should be allowed to trade our games between each other, sell them to others, trade them in for other games and anything else we want to do with the. The actual game disc is just the physical location of the game, but we are the owners of the right to play the game (that is what we pay for) and therefore we should be allowed to use that right however we want.

Most of the time I give my games away if I no longer play them. Gamestop is a freaking joke as far as trade in value. It's true that Amazon gives a fairly decent amount back for games....so that might be worth using sometime, but for the most part it's just not worth it to trade in games you pay $50+ for and get $10 or something.

That being said many games also drop DRASTICALLY in value over time. A game like oh God of War 3...which might have cost $60 when it came out....was $10 last christmas (when I got it in fact). Same with Prototype and a ton of other games that were buyable NEW at less then 1/5th of the initial price within a year of release.

It's actually gotten to the point where unless it's a game you have been dying to play it almost makes sense to wait until the deals and specials start on a game before picking it up. That usually makes me just purchase games on release if I'm dying to play it, or I want to support the company that produced it.

As far as buying used games, I only buy used games when it's a great deal (GS had buy 2 get 1 free last year) and it's a game am not sure I'll enjoy or it's not a genre I really like. The purchasing price of new games are often barely 10% more then the used one (again mainly at gamestop) and if you wait for specials on amazon etc....you can often get the new game for less then a used version!!!

Take the ratchet and clank games for the Ps3...both tools and crack I got for $10 new (think it was from toys r us) when they were on special. Right now one is 29.99 used and the other is 19.99 used at gamestop. It was $20 for both new half a year ago and it's $50 right now for them used....craaaaazy.

So yeah....used games are not really costing the gaming industry much money, the people it's hurting more then most is us...because were getting ripped off quite often heh.
 

Epona

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PlasmaFrog said:
I don't get why publishers are acting like money-grubbing twits lately?

Used game sales have been around since when I was playing my first SNES. As a matter of fact, I got most of my game copies through either kindness, trading, or even buying them from other friends. It's never significantly hurt the developers or publishers in anyone since people are still being motivated to purchase their content.

Even then, comparing it to piracy? How the fuck is this as bad as piracy? With piracy, they get no sales, zero. At least with people buying used copies, they know that at one point that they at least made a profit from that one copy; rather than someone pirating the game.

Yes, I will agree, companies such as Gamestop might put a dent in their wallets just for selling a used copy that is roughly 10%- than a new copy. Even then, they're still purchasing new copies for sale. This is absolutely no reason to stomp a major part of the industry into the ground over slightly increased profits.

This is just plain, simple, greed. Publishers want more money even though each title that they generally pops out of their as profits millions of dollars a year. This is the kind of cancer-killing attitude that is ruining the game industry itself.
It's true that used sales have always been around and it's true the industry has grown with the used games industry around (hell, I think the used game industry helped the game industry grow) and it's true that publishers have become overly greedy.

The reason they are getting so greedy now is because they know that they can get away with it. Many gamers send them that message.
 

Anti-Robot Man

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I've seen a lot of people throwing around used vs full-retail price here. Buying a game new can be very cheap if you wait a while and bother to shop around a bit. There are stacks of brilliant games you can get sealed for under £15.

I will say that the used game market helps this as retailers cut the price of new games much more aggressively than they used to (though it's mainly an effect of the UK marketplace becoming overcrowed with retailers).

I almost always buy new, though I only get the games I really want day 1.
 

Something Amyss

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IKWerewolf said:
OK I'm trying something out here, be patient and understanding.
I understand you're "trying this out," but this point of controversy has been done a few dozen times. I doubt anything has been added here since the last one, so recent it's still got some quotes in my inbox.

Should we blame the used games market stores? Well yes and no really. Yes for not giving some of that used game revenue back to publishers but not for the idea of providing customers what they want, games at cheaper prices.
Why should be blame them for not just giving money to the pubs? They got money off the original sale. Why should anyone feel entitled to get a second piece of the action?

OK so the game would break the used game market as it would reduce the price making it not worth the shelf space but customers would not buy the game at all as a show of anger as they would feel ripped off (and I ask why because this is the way PC players have to play anyway?).
Game stores likely wouldn't accept it in trade, or offer very little and charge a reduced price.

Now consider what Rage is doing... and its the lesser of two evils as it doesn't turn the game into a frisbee. However its the easy way out not the best. There is one thing as gamers that we can do to stop it and I'll fill you in when the time is right but feel free to guess on here.
However, you also summed it up. The lesser of two EVILS. It's still wrong to deliberately cut content, which is what they're admittedly doing. Not to the same level as people interpreted it to be, but maybe a little hissyfit based on ovverraction is what the gaming community needs.

DLC has offered a lot of more flexible methods for distribution, and unfortunately a good chunk of the gaming world has used it to punish us rather than to benefit both sides. Locking content just shows disdain for the customer base. The argument that they don't see money from used sales being problematic, since the used sales they hate often fund the new sales they love so much. In short: Deprive the gamer, deprive yourself.

If I have to spend ten or fifteen dollars to unlock content, that's not going to be spent on new content. If I spend it at all. If I do, the publisher doesn't really care. They get their money one way or the other. If I don't, they cry and scream because I'm not buying their games.

Devalue the used game, the gaming community does have less to throw around. It's two-fold, both for the seller and the buyer. And the people who trade in their games are more prone to do so for cash towards games. There's a reason Gamestop's model has been so successful, though part of it is dark magic I suspect.

Other elements that separate used sales from piracy:

-Finite copies versus infinite. The used market can only exist as long as there are new copies being purchased.

-finite usage. While one disc could technically be sold around a million times, it means nobody previous has access to it at the time. You can play a game while someone else torrents your installer. You can't do this with a used disc. Unless you're also pirating, but that falls under...Piracy.

-Used games are great marketing for new content. Going into Gamestop, you have to go past like ten million ads just to trade your stuff in. They actively and aggressively push new games. Some complain too aggressively. This helps push that all-important pre-order.

-Used games can still mean money without depriving the user of original content. We're living in the era of DLC, people. Seriously. If pubs can't figure out how to make this one work, they deserve to crumble like the bloated dinosaurs they are.

-Though EC meant it in different context, Players. Are. Content. Locking out multiplayer especially is just dumb, as you're depriving the paid owners from more content just as you're depriving the unpaid owners.

Aaaand...My tendinitis is acting up again, so I guess that's all I got. I don't get why anyone should feel guilty here, though.
 

Atmos Duality

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Silas13013 said:
(This only relates to the US)
The Supreme Court of the United States says you are wrong.
The Supreme Court says he is right.

This was upheld in the Blizzard vs Glider case (if you need a specific reference), and that case has become part of the basis upon which all of Blizzard's future games will be markted and sold.

(And this is the true reason Bnet 2.0 exists: It is meant to take BLIZZARD into the future; certainly not their gameplay experience. In practice, it's a strictly-worse system for the paying customer than Bnet 1.)

As for EULAs...some are enforceable. Some aren't. It's all in how and when they are presented.
Bnet 2.0 provides Blizzard with a legal strawman which it can hide behind: They literally turn their game from a product into a service, and by doing so can legally sever all rights the user had in using it.

Because with products, you can take goods home and fuck around with them to your heart's content; even break them. But with a service there are terms and conditions. In order to bypass them even a little, you have to break into their system and tamper with THEIR code.
Which is something they can sue you for, and thus it's legally enforceable. In this, Blizzard can define whatever terms they want; and this is how the old paper-thin-contract-of-adhesion suddenly becomes the Iron Standard Contract.

All other gaming publishers will eventually follow in Blizzard's footsteps; the potential for greater profit (completely at the expense of the customer) dictates this.

This is why the way an EULA is presented is important. The contract (which is what an EULA is) determines what rights the holder of a license has. If the contract is presented in a way that cannot be legally upheld (historically: most EULAs and other Contracts of Adhesion follow this in the United States), then the license means bugger-all. They could take you to court over terms in the EULA, but if it cannot pass muster, then it's all for naught.

However, even if the EULA isn't legally enforceable, STANDARD COPYRIGHT LAW STILL APPLIES.
To use an analogy: Even if you didn't need a gun license to carry a gun, that doesn't give you a License to Kill with that gun.

So legally, you do *not* own a byte of data on that disc. Or your hard drive. Or even in RAM.
On its own, there is nothing wrong with this practice; it's when companies start treating games like services with ridiculous termination clauses and terms of usage* is where we encounter serious problems.

*(such as Starcraft 2's clause stating you can't let anyone else play your game. They can ban you if they SUSPECT you do this. They don't have to prove it.
If they knew who I was, they could ban me right now just for posting this and I would have no legal power to do anything about it. I'd have to sue them in civil court, and I would certainly lose due to the crushing costs of legal bills alone even if I WAS in the right. This is why consumer's rights are important and not "sentimental" as some fools have put it before. Prevention is the surest cure.)
 

Baresark

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Zachary Amaranth said:
...so I guess that's all I got. I don't get why anyone should feel guilty here, though.
That is literally the part that is complete nonsense. We, as consumers, are supposed to feel guilty for the market providing us a product for cheaper. We are literally supposed to seek out the deal that hands the publisher more money because "it's the right thing to do". People are seriously confused as to the nature of the universe in regards to this. They also like to point out that the law of the land is that we don't own the data, but they are throwing back examples of how the system is completely broken. And the law of the land is pretty much illegitimate in compared to the law of nature.... you know, the actual laws.... as in things that cannot be changed because the universe dictated them as they are now.....

Do I make any sense here?
 

Baresark

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Atmos Duality said:
Well stated. It's good to see some folks around here pay attention to details rather than just ramble on and make up facts to make their argument seem more legitimate. I am filing your post away in my mental banks as a point of debate. :)