A professional, objective, apolitical future for The Escapist...

[Phasmal]

Snip

Just to clarify, I want the Escapist to talk about the new content creators.
What they're going to be doing, what we can expect. Normally, you'd expect that when a site takes on new members.

And also, deciding that I'm not interested in someone's work based on their personal views of trans people may be ridiculous to you, but I'm no telling you not to be interested. I'm just saying I am not.

Me not being interested in this isn't really a point of debate, I'm afraid.

 

[runic knight]

Once again, I am no stranger to to the knowledge of the issues transfolk face. And again, I readily agree he is an idiot for his stances. The problem is I can't call something "hate" unless it is actually motivated by hate, and regardless how ignorant the guy is, I don't get "hate" in what he says. His posts are not stepping on anyone's throat and his opinions are not the cause of the plight of various marginalized groups. Your presumption of his motivation though I have to call into question, as I didn't get that off the tweets there. If you have some I haven't seen though, please, I am more then happy to check them out.

As it is, I see an ignorant fool with opinions rooted in historical biology about what defines gender. Hatred, throat-stepping, his posts are not.

1) Person makes comment. Perhaps born of thoughtlessness, or ignorance. Who can say?
2) People say "Hey, that's potentially very harmful...have you considered these possible ramifications?"
3) Person responds with "STFU you can't tell me how to talk".

So...are we still arguing ignorance, here? He's just NOT AWARE? The people responding to him went in one ear and out the other? The last 30-50 years of social growth just passed him by, he was watching Miami Vice?

Ignorance isn't "not aware", ignorance is lacking the right knowledge. That does include being too damn stubborn to listen to people trying to teach you because you don't trust the information they are trying to impart. Also considering that the examples given were on twitter, the fact he didn't change his perspective immediately doesn't surprise me sadly.

He gives the overwhelming impression of absolutely not giving a single shit, and prioritizing his freedom of expression over any kind of social grace, or consideration of the marginalized group he is cheerfully engaged in mocking.

I'm not sure what the disconnect is here, Runic. You're clearly not a stupid guy. You concur that transgendered people are marginalized. You concur they face tremendous stigma from society. You're aware the suicide rate is off the charts alarming. This is what social stigma looks like. This is it in action. Is there a 1:1 correlation between this guy's tweet and some transgendered person killing themselves? Fuck if I know. Is he contributing to the problem? YEP. Is he aware of that? YEP? Does he give a shit? NOPE.

How much evidence do you need to establish malice?

Well for starters, something demonstrating he is aware he is directly contributing to the problem. Or doing so intentionally to cause harm. Basically the same as I mentioned before, something showcasing that the behavior is spiteful and malicious instead of direct result of stubborn ignorance and an archaic perspective on gender binary.

This guy is a political writer. It is what he does. If I said "we're trying to cut down on religion here at the Escapist" and then hired a lifelong priest to write the new gaming column, what would your perspective on that decision be? How can he NOT be religious? It's going to influence everything he thinks and writes. It's part of who he is. It's also why "taking the politics out of it" is such a stupid thing to suggest, because humans are innately political.

My perspective would be the same, regardless my personal dislike of religion or church. If he can't keep his politics out of the writing, then I am all for calling for kicking him to the curb. But we haven't seen that he can't yet. He was brought on for, if I recall right, something dealing with comedy and gaming. That doesn't need to be political. Since I haven't seen malicious intent in his stupidity, I have no qualms giving him the chance to show he can keep his foot out of his mouth here.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Then they would be fired, and presumably they shouldn't have been working for that particular company in the first place if their views are completely different and shunned by the audience.

This isn't really a matter of social justice, but more to do with employer/employee rights and the politics surrounding how much power each should have.

Either way, I'm not against this guy working here. But let's be honest, this site does have a significant left-wing bent. this guy kind of sticks out here, and his presence is already causing drama before he has even arrived.

Still, I'm more interested in what kind of content he plans to bring than his personal philosophy.

Fair enough. Personally I think it's a problem with the audience more than it is with the Employee/Employer.

Any problem with the audience in a content driven site like the Escapist is the Employer's problem by nature, and if that problem stems from the views of a content creator(Employee)... Well you do the math.

 

[AntiChri5]

I have to say, I think this is a pretty absurd position to take. If you, or anyone probably, uses social media these days, I'm certain someone can find something you posted, wrote, tweeted, whatever, that many people could blow out of proportion like what's happening now.

For instance, you used the word "bigotry" without actually demonstrating (so far no one has really demonstrated this) that Brandon is actually a bigot at all. However, this is enough for you to suggest that the Escapist should comment?

Comment what exactly? That Brandon's opinions are his own? (Obviously).

Frankly, I'm really quite annoyed at "callout culture" and slacktivism. It's pointless and accomplishes nothing other than making it's participants feel morally superior over ultimately trivial matters. Pretty much everyone in this thread who has vociferously complained about this appointment has failed to do anything other than demonstrate the Brandon has hurt their feelings (or, potentially hurt the feelings of others by proxy). Even then it's a maybe because not everyone is going to interpret a couple of tweets the same way.

I really do not understand what drives "callout culture". I don't get it. I don't know why people want to partake in it. I don't understand what they get from it really. And I don't understand why they do it at all. It seems like such a pointless and useless activity to be perpetually outraged at other people having ideas you don't like (and daring to speak about them). I don't see any sort of moral imperative on anyones behalf to do this, we already have laws on the books about using speech to incite violence and that my friends is an actual crime and worthy of speaking out against.

A couple of stupid tweets, is not.

What combination of white, straight, cis, and/or guy are you? Because you sound like the whitest, straightest, cis guy ever, tied with Runic Knight.

As a white, straight, cis guy who is on the same side of the debate as you....could you please not?

 

[Jake Martinez]

That's an extremely jaded way to look at it. It was an example. One thing Vault 101 is 100% correct on is that transgender suicides are shockingly high, and almost always linked to transphobia.

I don't particularly think it's jaded to call out someones cynical use of a young persons death in order to advance a point on an internet forum and I think everyone, but particularly people who believe that they are "morally empowered" to some degree or another to reflect upon the fact that it's probably not an appropriate decision to use someone elses tragedy in such a way. I suppose we can disagree on that this one point, but jaded? I don't really think so.

Also, I'm extremely sympathetic to the plight of transexuals. As I've mentioned before I have a close family member who is one and who has suffered with mental illness for decades. However, I am not sympathetic to the idea that anyone can harass other people into not having an opinion they don't like and I'm even less sympathetic to the idea that if you "eradicate transphobia" (as if you could ever do this considering how many other undesirable social ideas that people have that still remain around) that this will actually do much.

Here is the crux of the problem for me. People love to "call out" other people for perceived moral slights that happen to align to their own cultural or social identity. I don't get why they do this, because I don't particularly see it as producing any sort of positive result (likely because I get no personal enjoyment from it) but this actually doesn't solve anything. People who are actually concerned about issues, should likely address those issues head on instead of wasting time arguing on an internet forum about if someone, a single person out of probably billion of people with the same idea should, or should not, be employed for a completely unrelated matter.

So, from my position, all I ever see in these kind of arguments is useless posturing by useless people who are reveling in their ability to waste time doing useless activities. I mean this quite plainly, there is not a word in the english language to describe the contempt I have for this fruitless and pointless activity and the people who make it their lives mission to pursue it endlessly on the internet.

Someone brought up racism earlier in this thread. I'm going to use that subject to make my final point on this matter.

I see alot of people (usually white people) gushing over how terrible racism is, or how the cops are evil in Ferguson, or more recently about an interactive map of lynchings that went on in the united states. They have this idea that racism is something that can be eliminated and by doing so it would prevent all these problems. It seems apparent to me that these folks have never actually talked to a minority in their life about this shit.

Let me tell you what would have prevented those lynchings - The government and the police actually doing their jobs and upholding the laws they were supposed to enforce. People can be as racist as they want to be, that might be annoying to people like me who happen to be obviously a minority in this country, but you know what - I'd really prefer that the government actually have my back when my rights were being infringed or when myself or my family are in danger. I'm never going to make everyone person here like mexicans or blacks, that's a pointless and stupid idea, but I can damn well sure work towards making sure that society and the institutions that prop it up work.

It is systems that cause widespread human suffering not some jackass with an opinion I don't like.

 

[IceForce]

What combination of white, straight, cis, and/or guy are you? Because you sound like the whitest, straightest, cis guy ever, tied with Runic Knight.

As a white, straight, cis guy who is on the same side of the debate as you....could you please not?

I have to agree.

Transphobia is a horrible thing, but throwing back the same kind of rhetoric in return doesn't help anyone.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I do agree with you, though.

Sorry if I got antsy, kind of hard when everyday someone questions your existence. I just think it's bullshit that someone who says; 'I believe in liberty. Freedom of expression. Unless you're trans* then your identity is what I say it is, and fuck you that's why. You're a nut case for deluding yourself in the first case. XY = boy ... Wait you're not really XY? Still a boy, regardless ... fucking nutcase.'

It's basically the 'goto' excuse for arseholes and bigots who feel they can tell others that it's okay for them to disregard someone's existence. All the while feign like they are victims when someone calls out their bigotry and their broken platform for dictating the identity of others has nothing to do with liberty and freedom of expression. Pathetic souls, one and all.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

What combination of white, straight, cis, and/or guy are you? Because you sound like the whitest, straightest, cis guy ever, tied with Runic Knight.

Oy, mate. That's me you're talking about. I've got a reputation to keep.

No, but really. Are you having fun trying to so blatantly commit forum suicide by throwing insults at people?

It can't be that hard to have a strong disagreement with people but still be mature enough not to insult them or make assumptions about their character.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

That's an extremely jaded way to look at it. It was an example. One thing Vault 101 is 100% correct on is that transgender suicides are shockingly high, and almost always linked to transphobia.

I don't particularly think it's jaded to call out someones cynical use of a young persons death in order to advance a point on an internet forum and I think everyone, but particularly people who believe that they are "morally empowered" to some degree or another to reflect upon the fact that it's probably not an appropriate decision to use someone elses tragedy in such a way. I suppose we can disagree on that this one point, but jaded? I don't really think so.

Also, I'm extremely sympathetic to the plight of transexuals. As I've mentioned before I have a close family member who is one and who has suffered with mental illness for decades. However, I am not sympathetic to the idea that anyone can harass other people into not having an opinion they don't like and I'm even less sympathetic to the idea that if you "eradicate transphobia" (as if you could ever do this considering how many other undesirable social ideas that people have that still remain around) that this will actually do much.

Here is the crux of the problem for me. People love to "call out" other people for perceived moral slights that happen to align to their own cultural or social identity. I don't get why they do this, because I don't particularly see it as producing any sort of positive result (likely because I get no personal enjoyment from it) but this actually doesn't solve anything. People who are actually concerned about issues, should likely address those issues head on instead of wasting time arguing on an internet forum about if someone, a single person out of probably billion of people with the same idea should, or should not, be employed for a completely unrelated matter.

So, from my position, all I ever see in these kind of arguments is useless posturing by useless people who are reveling in their ability to waste time doing useless activities. I mean this quite plainly, there is not a word in the english language to describe the contempt I have for this fruitless and pointless activity and the people who make it their lives mission to pursue it endlessly on the internet.

Someone brought up racism earlier in this thread. I'm going to use that subject to make my final point on this matter.

I see alot of people (usually white people) gushing over how terrible racism is, or how the cops are evil in Ferguson, or more recently about an interactive map of lynchings that went on in the united states. They have this idea that racism is something that can be eliminated and by doing so it would prevent all these problems. It seems apparent to me that these folks have never actually talked to a minority in their life about this shit.

Let me tell you what would have prevented those lynchings - The government and the police actually doing their jobs and upholding the laws they were supposed to enforce. People can be as racist as they want to be, that might be annoying to people like me who happen to be obviously a minority in this country, but you know what - I'd really prefer that the government actually have my back when my rights were being infringed or when myself or my family are in danger. I'm never going to make everyone person here like mexicans or blacks, that's a pointless and stupid idea, but I can damn well sure work towards making sure that society and the institutions that prop it up work.

It is systems that cause widespread human suffering not some jackass with an opinion I don't like.

You make some good points on face value... Still you're shouting someone down for having an opinion as much as the pro-trans here are trying to shoot Morse down stupid things he said on twitter. A key difference is that a lot of people have qualms with the Escapist giving Morse a new platform where he might spew this kind of thing, while paying him for it.

On the other hand you're calling out someone for their call out, which is kind of ironic. Yes a person used an example of a trans child committing suicide to make a point on an internet forum, but without these kind of controversy meaningful discussions won't be had. Even if they are over the Internet.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

No, but really. Are you having fun trying to so blatantly commit forum suicide by throwing insults at people?

It can't be that hard to have a strong disagreement with people but still be mature enough not to insult them or make assumptions about their character.

I thought I made it pretty clear I came back to this account after years just because I heard about this mess and don't care about getting banned at all.

Why exactly have you come back just to complain? This site appears to be either dying or losing relevance.

 

[runic knight]

[snip.

you seem to be operating on [i/]"its not actual -ism unless its KKK robe wearing hate spouting levels"[/i] logic...that is incorrect

he DOES dislike trans people..he fucking mocked them, if that isn't dislike I don't know what is...its transphobia plain and simple, I don't see how this isn't getting through

Because he mocks the concept of self-identifying based on an archaic binary gender idea and not the value of people as human beings who identify themselves as trans? In that regard it is like someone mocking another for not seeing the medical benefits of mercury. They are stupid, but they aren't -phobic against the group of people opposing mercy poisoning themselves nor saying they are subhuman. Being an ignorant jackass in that fashion is not dignified, but it isn't malice either.

I don't get "hate" in what he says. His posts are not stepping on anyone's throat and his opinions are not the cause of the plight of various marginalized groups. Your presumption of his motivation though I have to call into question, as I didn't get that off the tweets there.

oh so total disregard and disrespect isn't enough? is has to be something as outright as "I want all of them to die" so no one gets confused? you ain't gonna see that 99% of the time

what you WILL see is mocking the words people use in regards to their indentitys
what you WILL see is condecening "oh you just have problems, youre experience isn't real"
what you WILL see is "SEX MEANS X CHROMOZOMES AND Y CHROMOZOMES FULL STOP"

Disrespecting the current concept of transfolk based on archaic binary gender perspective is not the same as bigotry against people. Mocking the concept is not the same as targeting those who agree with it. Being ignorant about the idea is not the same as prejudice against them. That is the difference, the lack of not treating them as individual people worthy of the same basic human rights. His perspective is ignorant, but that does not mean a hatred of those who disagree.

that trans girl who died a few months back...her parents never told her to kill herself..they probably never said trans people deserved to die or laid a hand on her in violence...what they DID do was dismiss and (because she was under their control) deny her identiy, you know....the kind of thing this Jerk and majority of society do to trans-people

someone who says racist/homophobic/sexist things probably doens't *think* they hate x group if you asked them, but their still perpetrating the same harmful attitudes, the same bullshit

opinions are not like taste in music...sometimes theyre just shitty and they shouldn'y be defended on the assumptions its "just a subjective thing"

Do I even need to address this thing again? Discuss the difference between actions motivated by belief and belief on its own? Discuss the lack of relevance these examples have in the argument that is not and never was about my personal feelings regarding the guy's stance (he's terribly dumb)? Repeat myself again about the key difference his tweets show is a perspective on gender identity rather then bigotry towards transpeople? Would any of it matter regarding your opinion of my stance here or your intent in using this as a rebuttal in the first place?

Opinions are subjective, some are factual, some are not. My defense was not of the opinions, but of the person who made them, not because I agree, but because I disagree yet can not see the malice in his tweets that so many others seem to see.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

No, but really. Are you having fun trying to so blatantly commit forum suicide by throwing insults at people?

It can't be that hard to have a strong disagreement with people but still be mature enough not to insult them or make assumptions about their character.

I thought I made it pretty clear I came back to this account after years just because I heard about this mess and don't care about getting banned at all.

Yeah, that totally excuses being an ass to people.

Like telling them their very existence has made the world a worse place based on an opinion of theirs you heavily disagree with. Just how much of an ass do you have to be to tell anybody that? Christ, if you don't want to be involved here just ask to be banned or stay away from the forums. Don't shit them up even further by perpetuating shitty and childish behavior.

 

[AntiChri5]

If you think racism against whites or anything similar is even possible then fuck off, no one wants or needs you on their side.

Racism is possible against people of all races and sexism is possible against people of all genders. In our society, the deck is stacked way the fuck in favour of straight white guys and they rarely face anything resembling discrimination, certainly not on the scale of some others.

With that out of the way, grow the fuck up. At this point, you are just hurling insults at people for being born different and linking the lack of perspective of a few posters to their sex, race and orientation. What does that get you? What's the positive that comes from that? Does it make things any better for gay or trans folk? Does it change hearts and minds? Does it win the debate? Does it guide the person you are discussing things with to a more balanced perspective where they can accept the struggles of those born different. No, and no and no no no. All it does is push away support so you can have a pity party in your minority fortress of specialness.

Being part of a marginalized group does not excuse being an asshole, man.

 

[Bat Vader]

No, but really. Are you having fun trying to so blatantly commit forum suicide by throwing insults at people?

It can't be that hard to have a strong disagreement with people but still be mature enough not to insult them or make assumptions about their character.

I thought I made it pretty clear I came back to this account after years just because I heard about this mess and don't care about getting banned at all.

Why though? If you haven't visited the site in years why all of a sudden come back just because you heard about this? Since you don't care about getting banned why not just stop visiting entirely? Why get intentionally banned?

 

[Fsyco]

I'm not sure his tweets are motivated by transphobia. It seems more like they were motivated by the fact he's a libertarian (he himself said so on his twitter), and libertarians get notoriously pissy when you try to tell them what to do. They also like to dress up opinions that defend the status quo as "rebellious" and "edgy". I've personally never met one that was all quite right in the head (the things I've heard my father say make these tweets sound pretty tame), but he might not be the monster we think he is. But, maybe he is. Who knows?

 

[IceForce]

Yes. The exact same rhetoric. Totally.

Don't you see the irony and hypocrisy of what you're doing? You're engaging in the very same type of insulting behavior that the person outlined in the OP is engaging in, only in the opposite camp.

What makes YOUR bigotry any better than his?

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I will only say this to you lot, the whole lot of you, look exactly like Gamergaters when it first started, digging through people's twitter feed to find something incriminating, accusing them of things. The only difference is, you feel you are morally correct and therefore have no shame in doing so, you feel you are correct so what does it matter if you go down to your oppositions level, hey I'm right, they are wrong fuck em.

If I had any doubts that you are the new moral panic like that of the Christians in the 90s it was erased when there was a Crusade to get that Mozilla founder to step down, it's nice to see you all following the trend though. Have fun being the man you used to fight against.

Well, first off, 'digging' implies that I even had to look very hard.

As others have said, I don't think denying trans-people the right to their own identities under the juvenile guise of 'Ain't no Liberal Correctness gonna tell this lone soldier what to do!' is on another level to the complete non-starters that, somehow, got GamerGate started.

Finally, for the umpteenth and last time, I am not calling for this guy to be fired before his work has even begun. I don't actually see anyone in this thread doing that. I see people rightly indignant at the things he's said, promising to no longer financially support the site if this is going to mean such sentiment will be supported by the site. However, if somebody were to actually call on him to be fired at this point, I would disagree with them. If he does something that shames the site, on the site, then he should be fired. Until then, I won't suggest it, I will simply question, as I have been doing, how the logic of hiring him matches up with statement previously made by higher-ups about their new 'apolitical' direction.

On something I found from Mr. Morse- He had written this and it is safe to say, he seems to be one of the many people who loathe "political correctness" along with speaking of Saul Alinsky, the Frankfurt School, and many other talking points from social conservatives I find and it is safe for me to say I am in complete opposition to this viewpoint of Mr. Morse.

He quotes Carlin to support his viewpoint? Carlin?!

I can't imagine George Carlin having anything other than fucking disdain for this guy. That quote was in fact Carlin accusing the term 'Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder', of sheltering people from the true horrors of war, and this guy is trying to use it to say how it's perfectly okay for him to call trans-people delusional?

I fucking despair...

 

[FirstNameLastName]

No, but really. Are you having fun trying to so blatantly commit forum suicide by throwing insults at people?

It can't be that hard to have a strong disagreement with people but still be mature enough not to insult them or make assumptions about their character.

I thought I made it pretty clear I came back to this account after years just because I heard about this mess and don't care about getting banned at all.

Why though? If you haven't visited the site in years why all of a sudden come back just because you heard about this? Since you don't care about getting banned why not just stop visiting entirely? Why get intentionally banned?

He seems to have realised that without anything to lose, he can begin throwing his shit around without having to worry about the consequences.

To be honest, he is pretty heavily invoking Poe's Law.

 

[runic knight]

That makes perfect sense. I also am willing to point way back to some of my earlier posts in this thread that he at least deserves a chance to show weather or not his bigotry will show in his content. I'm interested to say what he said. The whole thing that started irritating me was this line of argument. Also it feels like a personal right has been taken from you if someone actively denies how you identify.

Well, seems we agree relatively on the primary part. As to the followup, I don't know. How you identify is a personal thing, and no one can take that away from you, but should they have to accept your identity and treat you as you want to be seen as? Civility would demand you be treated as you wish to be considered as, of course, but in terms of right? I don't know. I'd say forced to pick, I'd say that no, it doesn't sound like a right in its own. People do not have to accept another's opinion, even of themselves after all. Gender identity would have to be looked at with regards to legal and social aspects I think. Legality, that is a damn mess last I heard so no clear answer there. Socially? Is it a right to be socially considered a gender you identify with instead of a biological one? I don't know. As an extension of how people treat you in general, outside of obeying laws, there is no right to how you are treated or talked to. Seems a complex issue and I will admit, I don't have a clear answer on that one, will need to mull it over more and hear more arguments.

This is exactly why I'm glad I have the ability to pass as female, generally if people don't have any idea then they treat me as the gender I identify with, rather than the biological sex I was born as. On the legal side it is a damn mess, socially to some people I instantly become a pariah. At least the legal side is starting to slowly clear up, the social side is generally more advanced as more people are becoming able to rationally accept transgenderism. But that's largely thanks to the fact the transgenderism is becoming more and more visible and more understood by people, which means they're more likely to accept it.

I live in a society where 2/3 still don't think evolution is real in spite of it being scientifically testable and principles depended on for medicine and food production. I fear progress with regards to gender identification will take time. Still, I will take your word about the legal aspects and see that as a positive. You have my sympathy with regard to being a pariah though, such a reaction is not easy.
As for rationality, I have to wonder if the best way to address this and many other problems wouldn't be an encouragement of rationality itself sometimes. While no one is perfect, I think critical thought and debate is far too undervalued and as a result, it slows the acceptance of new progress reliant on rationality to be accepted. Forcing it to take generations to grown in acceptance what can be rationally demonstrated true or untrue today.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I thought I made it pretty clear I came back to this account after years just because I heard about this mess and don't care about getting banned at all.

Why though? If you haven't visited the site in years why all of a sudden come back just because you heard about this? Since you don't care about getting banned why not just stop visiting entirely? Why get intentionally banned?

Some men something something about the world burning.

Yes. The exact same rhetoric. Totally.

Don't you see the irony and hypocrisy of what you're doing? You're engaging in the very same type of insulting behavior that the person outlined in the OP is engaging in, only in the opposite camp.

What makes YOUR bigotry any better than his?

Coincidentally, whenever I've used the term "SJW" it's always been in reference to people like Wyrmy here.

So, you know, there's the frame of reference.

OT: I do wonder if the Escapist would even comment on this. It seems like something they shouldn't really let 'fester,' especially with how much whining has already happened, but then, they didn't say anything about MovieBob either...though he did 'apologize' at one point or another, which came from on high.

So, we'll see?

In the mean time...relax, folks. Give it a bit. See where this goes. By all means, don't consume whatever content the guy has if it doesn't jive with you at all. No harm there.

But, you know, maybe stop accusing the site of shit? Maybe? Just a suggestion?

Edit: Nevermind. I read that article Skat linked. I'm in judgey mode now, Escapist.