A Question about RPGs.

[DreamKing]

The RPG genre is my favorite video game genre. I love Western RPGs and JRPGs. My dilemma is that these two different forms of RPGs take the two main attractions, Combat and Story, and place it two completely different rooms across the galaxy.

I found that JRPGs focus more on the combat, examples being Baten Katios, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Tales of series, but deviating from the main story, the game is poorly explained or poorly concluded. An excellent example of this is Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles for the Gamecube. The dungeons have a very engrossing beginning cutscene but the random events littered around the overworld are dull and repetitive. However, I feel that the turn based JRPGs offer more strategy as I have to time my attacks, spells, techs, and items to hopefully end a battle with most of my party in top condition.

Western RPGs have an engrossing story, side stories, believable NPCs, and a broader meaning of the choice and consequence. There is a lot to do outside of the main quest and I get a feeling of satisfaction for completing the side quests or conduct a random search of a nearby cave. Combat is shallow and usually is just plain button mashing. A good example of this is Fable II. My character mostly focuses on melee attacks and I throw in a couple of ranged attacks for good measure. After a fight is over, my thumb hurts because I am slamming the buttons to make my character respond. I never felt a pressing need to heal my character after an exhausting fight. If I know that I have healing items I may use them but that?s if I really need them. Fallout 3 is another perpetuator of the endless supply of health.

My question to the members of the Escapist, are there games where the story and combat fit. How do these games pull it off?

 

[lazerwolf]

well while the combat in chrono trigger and final fantasy(s) is really good and a good driving part of playing the games, they have much more massive stories than you are giving them credit too. In my opinion chrono trigger may be the best story of all time and combatwise as well.

 

[Varchld]

There are.
With JRPG's though, I like to think that something was lost in translation

DeusEx is close enough to being an RPG in my mind, but the combat is there too. I guess Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines is not really an RPG, but with a little tweaking it could be.
They are both well made FPS' with deep story and limited freedom with exploration and story arc. They work because they're just so well crafted and don't neglect major areas or possibilities.

I hate to bring it up, but Fallout 1 comes to mind too. The action is slow and turn based, but for much of it (till you can kill things with a single eye crit) the combat is actually enough to make you think about it a little. The story and freedom of choice is heaped in on a huge scale too.

Baldur's Gate, a real time pauseable game based on the older D&D methods. Huge story with many arcs and side quests, almost full freedom along a not so narrow predefined path. Combat was rather technical, you'd be controlling 6 people with varying roles and abilities and could do battle a number of differing ways dependant on situation.

Now that I think about it, JRPG's like Final Fantasy have rediculous combat for some of them (I haven't played them all). You'd do the same thing in almost every encounter.

But anyway, if you want to get a grasp on how to do an RPG, play those 4 games and then as yourself the same questions you did here.

 

[-Seraph-]

For WRPG's I thought Jade Empire and Mass Effect did a fine job at melding story and combat together quite nicely.

JRPG's like Star Ocean and Kingdom Hearts are good examples of how it can work well in that sub genre

 

[Arionis]

Ever played Dai Katana? xDDDD

*is stoned, and rightfully so* That game was terrible. 8/

Um....I can't really think of any that have Story and Combat holding hands the entire time. 8/

 

[Avatar Roku]

For WRPG's I thought Jade Empire and Mass Effect did a fine job at melding story and combat together quite nicely.

JRPG's like Star Ocean and Kingdom Hearts are good examples of how it can work well in that sub genre

QFT

Anyway, I'm more of a FPS fan who occasionally dabbles in RPGs, so I only really play Western ones like Mass Effect and KotOR. The ones I play I love though.

EDIT:

Western RPGs have an engrossing story, side stories, believable NPCs,

What the hell are you smoking? This is bullshit and completly backwards. JPRGs have fantastic stories while western ones barely have a story at all.

Um...Mass Effect, Fallout series, need I go on?

 

[JMeganSnow]

I wouldn't even include Mass Effect and Jade Empire. I would say Planescape: Torment, however. You don't level by killing stuff in that game. You level by delving into the story. It makes a big difference.

I think if you really want combat and storyline to go hand-in-hand, then the battles have to be a matter of "you're fighting to accomplish your goals" instead of "you're fighting to level up and get better equipment". And getting from this side of the room to the opposite side of the room does *not* count as a goal. Fights like that are filler to make the game longer.

The trouble, of course, is more fundamental than that: the activities where you do most of your fighting aren't completely integrated into the main plot, either. Very often the gameplay and the character system aren't integrated.

I think that if you want to get a truly integrated game, the conventional ideas about side plots and leveling up have to get thrown out the window. Sure, it's nice to level, but when it detracts from the fun because you have to kill 10,000 kobolds to advance, it's time to rethink this idea.

 

[DreamKing]

Western RPGs have an engrossing story, side stories, believable NPCs,

What the hell are you smoking? This is bullshit and completly backwards. JPRGs have fantastic stories while western ones barely have a story at all.

Ok fine. Maybe Fallout 3 and Oblivion could have a lot more in the character development part. Have you ever played a game called Geneforge? That had loads of interesting NPCs and quests to do. Fable II and the Fallout series have had villians and NPCs that made the game seem larger than life. Final Fantasy II had their NPCs only repeat lines that involved the town directly. It destroyed the main land mass and made each town its own little island. Skies of Arcadia made no attempt at revisiting an area, except maybe to find Discoveries. Baten Kaitos Origins had a terrific battle system, but backtracking was really no fun at all because I knew that my actions would have no effect on the dialouge inbetween the NPCs.

 

[-Seraph-]

JRPGs have you playing a certain character along a linear plot while WRPG let you create a character and choose your own path

Yes but JPRGs tell the story. WRPGs do not. Freedom does not = story.

WRPG's do tell a story, it's just more passive than that of JRPG's. You are right to a certain extent about freedom not = Story. Too much freedom and story becomes hard to stay coherent. Some people to to lost in all the freedom their given and they lose track of whatever story there is.

 

[DreamKing]

I wouldn't even include Mass Effect and Jade Empire. I would say Planescape: Torment, however. You don't level by killing stuff in that game. You level by delving into the story. It makes a big difference.

I think if you really want combat and storyline to go hand-in-hand, then the battles have to be a matter of "you're fighting to accomplish your goals" instead of "you're fighting to level up and get better equipment". And getting from this side of the room to the opposite side of the room does *not* count as a goal. Fights like that are filler to make the game longer.

The trouble, of course, is more fundamental than that: the activities where you do most of your fighting aren't completely integrated into the main plot, either. Very often the gameplay and the character system aren't integrated.

I think that if you want to get a truly integrated game, the conventional ideas about side plots and leveling up have to get thrown out the window. Sure, it's nice to level, but when it detracts from the fun because you have to kill 10,000 kobolds to advance, it's time to rethink this idea.

Good point. But there are ways to expand a story without quests. Take books for example. There could be an in game story of adventurer who, I don't know, learns that wearing a mask on a certain day causes the people to more friendly and more accepting to this random person looking to slay said kobolds in a desperate attempt to win a woman. Player reads the book and, WHAM!, the player now knows what to do on the 5th of Thermidor and that killing kobolds increases his chances of attracting a wife.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

From what I've seen, most wrpgs tend to lack in story because they favor making things "epic" while jrpgs focus on story but make the game linear, and combat suffers in most rpgs no matter what side of the world.

I'm not sure if you can call it an rpg, but try Okami, the battle mechanics work into the whole scheme of the game, story and gameplay go together nicely.

Also the Shin Megami Tensei series, Persona, Digital Devil Saga, or Nocturn. The battle system for Digital Devil Saga and Nocturn are turn based, but they throw strategy in and offer some... interesting alternatives to just killing your enemies. (in Nocturn, you can recruit them into your party, in digital devil saga, you can eat them), as for the story, your actions in the game usually affect which way the story will go.

 

[DreamKing]

Also the Shin Megami Tensei series, Persona, Digital Devil Saga, or Nocturn. The battle system for Digital Devil Saga and Nocturn are turn based, but they throw strategy in and offer some... interesting alternatives to just killing your enemies. (in Nocturn, you can recruit them into your party, in digital devil saga, you can eat them), as for the story, your actions in the game usually affect which way the story will go.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will surely look into these games.

 

[WilliamWhite1]

There are such games. I would suggest the Tales series of games, and only the latest ones.
As of late, they've churned out a substantial amount of 'good' combat, albeit slightly sloppy, and have definitely placed their forte in story telling. Not sure how much longer the series will last, but one could definitely place money on that those who have played do not get enough of the characters involved.

In response to the question, such games DO exist, it's just that they are hard to pull off. What I think these games need is a solid storyline; something to keep us entertained, and a simple, effective battle system which doesn't really 'get old.' We need a battle system that becomes more difficult as we get better at the game, level up, obtain new skills, and is almost clever in its warping of elements.

I don't know about you, but I like a game where the story has an effect on the difficulty of the opponents. I like to believe that I've accomplished something by the end of a battle. For that reason, battle must also not feel tireless or needless; grinding is something that usually takes away from the effect story has on the entire game.

 

[DreamKing]

There are such games. I would suggest the Tales series of games, and only the latest ones.
As of late, they've churned out a substantial amount of 'good' combat, albeit slightly sloppy, and have definitely placed their forte in story telling. Not sure how much longer the series will last, but one could definitely place money on that those who have played do not get enough of the characters involved.

In response to the question, such games DO exist, it's just that they are hard to pull off. What I think these games need is a solid storyline; something to keep us entertained, and a simple, effective battle system which doesn't really 'get old.' We need a battle system that becomes more difficult as we get better at the game, level up, obtain new skills, and is almost clever in its warping of elements.

I don't know about you, but I like a game where the story has an effect on the difficulty of the opponents. I like to believe that I've accomplished something by the end of a battle. For that reason, battle must also not feel tireless or needless; grinding is something that usually takes away from the effect story has on the entire game.

I agree wholeheartly.

 

[lazerwolf]

Western RPGs have an engrossing story, side stories, believable NPCs,

What the hell are you smoking? This is bullshit and completly backwards. JPRGs have fantastic stories while western ones barely have a story at all.

Ok fine. Maybe Fallout 3 and Oblivion could have a lot more in the character development part. Have you ever played a game called Geneforge? That had loads of interesting NPCs and quests to do. Fable II and the Fallout series have had villians and NPCs that made the game seem larger than life. Final Fantasy II had their NPCs only repeat lines that involved the town directly. It destroyed the main land mass and made each town its own little island. Skies of Arcadia made no attempt at revisiting an area, except maybe to find Discoveries. Baten Kaitos Origins had a terrific battle system, but backtracking was really no fun at all because I knew that my actions would have no effect on the dialouge inbetween the NPCs.

you can't really compare fallout 3 which was released last year with final fantasy 2 and say that the characters change. ff2 has the limitation of the technology at the time.

What you really have to define here is what are you calling "combat" because almost every RPG has a story otherwise you wouldn't really do anything in the game. Some are more intricate and the driving part of the game whereas others are simply there enough to get you from point A to point B with a reason.

 

[DreamKing]

Western RPGs have an engrossing story, side stories, believable NPCs,

What the hell are you smoking? This is bullshit and completly backwards. JPRGs have fantastic stories while western ones barely have a story at all.

Ok fine. Maybe Fallout 3 and Oblivion could have a lot more in the character development part. Have you ever played a game called Geneforge? That had loads of interesting NPCs and quests to do. Fable II and the Fallout series have had villians and NPCs that made the game seem larger than life. Final Fantasy II had their NPCs only repeat lines that involved the town directly. It destroyed the main land mass and made each town its own little island. Skies of Arcadia made no attempt at revisiting an area, except maybe to find Discoveries. Baten Kaitos Origins had a terrific battle system, but backtracking was really no fun at all because I knew that my actions would have no effect on the dialouge inbetween the NPCs.

you can't really compare fallout 3 which was released last year with final fantasy 2 and say that the characters change. ff2 has the limitation of the technology at the time.

What you really have to define here is what are you calling "combat" because almost every RPG has a story otherwise you wouldn't really do anything in the game. Some are more intricate and the driving part of the game whereas others are simply there enough to get you from point A to point B with a reason.

Combat is anything involving the interactions with hostile NPCs. Fable II is a good example of a button smasher WRPG. Fallout 3 is a combination of a button masher and strategy. Final Fantasy is strategy. The Tales of series is a combination of strategy and real-time action, for a lack of a better word.

I guess now that I realize it, FF2 was not a good example. A better example would be Baten Kaitos Origins. When Sagi and co. revisit the islands for a second time, the same people are in the same position and say the same thing from when you first left. sure, there is dialouge repetition in WRPGs too, but a least Three Dog changes his line up after a while.

 

[minoes]

Well, I like how in "Vagrant story" if you take to much time fighting an enemy, the harder it gets to connect hits properly, due to the stress. The other thing I like about that game is that no weapon is universally powerful.

 

[Yog Sothoth]

go play Fallout 1 & 2, then come back and talk to me.....

 

[RyePunk]

Fire Emblem. I usually find the story quite good, albeit i could understand if it wasnt your cup of tea, and the strategy combat to be slices of heaven.

 

[inkheart_artist]

I'm just gonna put it out there that I hate JRPG turn based 'combat' ESPECIALLY the Final Fantasy style where you get choose from 3 or 4 actions and thats it. I played a lot of JRPGs when I was a teen but I can only count one one hand the number I finished because the 'action' came from picking from the same 4 options endlessly and watching the character do all the stuff, that would be fun to do myself, for me. The killer comes when they expect you to do it for 60+ hours to finish a game.... Then again most of that time is devoted to convoluting a stereotypical and simple story to span 50 hours of that time. I can't bring myself to even call it strategic most of the time cause it boiled down to heal and attack almost every time for most of the games I've played. Save games like Crono Cross and Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.

I'm alright with WRPGs though. They play like kinda like, ya know, role playing games. I haven't felt like it deprived me of strategy while playing though, I can't say I've played Fable and I have yet to play Fallout 3 so I can't say too much about them.