A question about Solo

[Trunkage]

They're getting a film with a male hero and a male cast because apparently these people like a sausage fest where women only exist to jerk off the hero, I guess. So what more do they want?

It's almost as if that isn't the substantial issue with the dissatisfaction of the audience, isn't it? But how can that be, after what we've been told by the media and studio representatives?

If only there was some way to solve the riddle.

I don't want to pretend that there aren't multiple facets to why people are boycotting. I'm trying to listen. Some critics focus on the storytelling, while some also focus on Rey (in particular, her being female. Or pushing leftist agenda onto them.)

I don't think Rey is a good character but neither is Luke or Han, or Finn for that matter. They are bare bones skeletal outlines of a character. The story didn't make sense in'77 and got a pass becuase it had good special effects and we were kids,

I gave Phantom Meance a shot. I then didn't see Attack of the Clones at the movies, I thought Menace was that bad. I saw Force Awakens and nothing else of the new one. Star Wars isn't for me. But I'm also not about to try and force a company or director to make a Star Wars I like. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I don't know. I mostly heard about the political anti-feminist backlash against TLJ from a friend of mine, I don't follow any forums other than this one. I'm probably going to have to change that once this one fails...
What gets me is that the major complaint I heard about TFA is that it was basically a retread of ANH, which it kinda was. So TLJ did something almost completely different and people hate it.

Personally if I was going to boycott this movie it'd be because I don't want to see any more of these damn spin-off movies.

Well, if you're interested I'd recommend MauLer's Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJRw56cOVw]; highly entertaining rant, focuses only on storytelling issues.

Well at least those are legitimate reasons for hating it. ...and honestly stuff I'd not considered. I mean I hated what they did to Luke's character, but a lot of that other stuff hadn't occurred to me.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

... Who is Keneally?

Anyway, eh. While I refuse to associate with these people boycotting, I can't deny that I am not comfortable how this push for diversity has affected Star Wars. The chick that Finn was hanging out with (was it Rose?) is the worst part of the movie, and they only added her as an afterthought to the script to have more ladies in the movie.

I have no problem with diversity, but that is exactly the kind of shit that crosses the line for me.

But yeah, boycotting Solo is ridiculous.

 

[Hawki]

The chick that Finn was hanging out with (was it Rose?) is the worst part of the movie, and they only added her as an afterthought to the script to have more ladies in the movie.

False. To quote Wookiepedia:

The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson conceived Rose because he realized that having Poe go with Finn to Canto Bight would have been boring. "It was just these two dudes on an adventure," he said. "I knew something was wrong when I looked at their dialogue and realized I could interchange any of the lines. There wasn't conflict between them. So I realized I had to come up with something else. Finn needing somebody else to go with who would actually challenge him and push him and contrast with him was where Rose came from.

He did not envision Rose with a specific ethnicity, auditioning Caucasian actresses and women of color for the role. "We saw a lot of talented actresses of a very broad range ? but honestly, it was more about finding Kelly," he recalled. "There was something about Kelly that had that kind of genuine oddball nature and a real sweetness to her. She has the most open heart of anyone I've ever met and I knew that was going to shine through onscreen.

 

[Saelune]

The only good thing about the new Star Wars films is how progressive the universe got. The plots all suck, but I am glad that women and other skin colors are heavily featured.

Besides, Leia was a feminist icon since the original film.

 

[Saelune]

... Who is Keneally?

Anyway, eh. While I refuse to associate with these people boycotting, I can't deny that I am not comfortable how this push for diversity has affected Star Wars. The chick that Finn was hanging out with (was it Rose?) is the worst part of the movie, and they only added her as an afterthought to the script to have more ladies in the movie.

I have no problem with diversity, but that is exactly the kind of shit that crosses the line for me.

But yeah, boycotting Solo is ridiculous.

I do not like Rey, but I do not think her being a woman is why she is badly written. I think JJ Abrams vision is why she is badly written.


If you do not like Rose, that is ok, but if you think a push for diversity is relevant to why, then that is worrysome.

Do you think Rose being a woman is why you do not like her? If Finn was getting flirty with a man, would that be better? Cause uh...that would probably a bigger diversity push than another straight romance plot, cause there are more of those in media than stars in the sky at this point.

 

[Saelune]

From what I understand, a number people are unhappy about the direction Star Wars as a franchise seems to be going, for several different reasons, and want to express their discontent in the only way that actually has a chance of making Disney care; Solo just happens to be the one that's coming out at the moment. I'd be very surprised if the same people don't call for a boycott of Episode IX and whichever spinoff comes after that, barring some actual shakeup at Disney/Lucasfilms.

Now, me, I have to wonder just what precisely people expected would happen when a self-contained, concluded saga was bought by a soulless corporation with no conceivable interest in it other than turning it into a perpetual money-printing machine, but hey... to each their own.

EDIT: Because I just stumbled upon this... have a video. It does a pretty good job of explaining what has been going on with Star Wars and disgruntled fans, I thought.

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

From what I understand, a number people are unhappy about the direction Star Wars as a franchise seems to be going, for several different reasons, and want to express their discontent in the only way that actually has a chance of making Disney care; Solo just happens to be the one that's coming out at the moment. I'd be very surprised if the same people don't call for a boycott of Episode IX and whichever spinoff comes after that, barring some actual shakeup at Disney/Lucasfilms.

Now, me, I have to wonder just what precisely people expected would happen when a self-contained, concluded saga was bought by a soulless corporation with no conceivable interest in it other than turning it into a perpetual money-printing machine, but hey... to each their own.

EDIT: Because I just stumbled upon this... have a video. It does a pretty good job of explaining what has been going on with Star Wars and disgruntled fans, I thought.

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

You are not making your position any better if you don't respond to these arguments.

This isn't someone saying to "Killing people randomly is good" scenario where you can just right it off with ease.

This video has 10 minutes of a guy explaining his side. An explination I feel deserves a rebuttle.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

The movie was okay. They're all okay. Impossible to get worked up about them. It's just dumb fun at this point. Could've done without the sassy equal rights robot talking about her off switch like it was her clit though. But what the fuck ever.

The chick that Finn was hanging out with (was it Rose?) is the worst part of the movie, and they only added her as an afterthought to the script to have more ladies in the movie.

False. To quote Wookiepedia:

The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson conceived Rose because he realized that having Poe go with Finn to Canto Bight would have been boring. "It was just these two dudes on an adventure," he said. "I knew something was wrong when I looked at their dialogue and realized I could interchange any of the lines. There wasn't conflict between them. So I realized I had to come up with something else. Finn needing somebody else to go with who would actually challenge him and push him and contrast with him was where Rose came from.

He did not envision Rose with a specific ethnicity, auditioning Caucasian actresses and women of color for the role. "We saw a lot of talented actresses of a very broad range ? but honestly, it was more about finding Kelly," he recalled. "There was something about Kelly that had that kind of genuine oddball nature and a real sweetness to her. She has the most open heart of anyone I've ever met and I knew that was going to shine through onscreen.

Well if he says so.

 

[Ogoid]

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

Yes, I thought someone might object to that.

You know what, fair enough. TL;DW, Becker showcases tons of Youtube channels from people of all walks of life who, much like himself, have made videos criticizing current Star Wars films for a variety of reasons, and points out that the response has been, on the part of so-called "professional" media, to completely ignore said criticism and instead publish demonstrably biased trash like this [http://archive.li/P0lap], and on Disney's and Lucasfilms', to adopt the Paul Feig approach to marketing and PR, apparently believing the only reason it didn't work two years ago was that they weren't quite insulting enough towards their own audience.

 

[Natemans]

From what I understand, a number people are unhappy about the direction Star Wars as a franchise seems to be going, for several different reasons, and want to express their discontent in the only way that actually has a chance of making Disney care; Solo just happens to be the one that's coming out at the moment. I'd be very surprised if the same people don't call for a boycott of Episode IX and whichever spinoff comes after that, barring some actual shakeup at Disney/Lucasfilms.

Now, me, I have to wonder just what precisely people expected would happen when a self-contained, concluded saga was bought by a soulless corporation with no conceivable interest in it other than turning it into a perpetual money-printing machine, but hey... to each their own.

EDIT: Because I just stumbled upon this... have a video. It does a pretty good job of explaining what has been going on with Star Wars and disgruntled fans, I thought.

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

Honestly SJW arguments or complaining about SJWs or diversity is the biggest turn off for me nowadays when it comes to articles or Youtube videos. I know it sounds biased, but goddamn, I'm sick of seeing it shoved everywhere.

 

[Hawki]

You know what, fair enough. TL;DW, Becker showcases tons of Youtube channels from people of all walks of life who, much like himself, have made videos criticizing current Star Wars films for a variety of reasons,

"Dozens" is being generous.

Since he's fond of the potato analogy, let's say I want to address the issue of homophobia. I show people showing that they're not homophobic. That doesn't disprove the notion the homophobia exists. Or to address the video directly, congratulations, not everyone is an asshole who likes to make death threats against directors and verbally abuse anyone who might disagree with them. Doesn't change the fact that those people still exist.

biased trash like this [http://archive.li/P0lap],

An article that points out toxic fandom, that provides direct quotes of detestable language...is baised? One its first paragraphs is Something is deeply broken among the Star Wars faithful. Respectable discourse has deterioriated completely as a small but determined minority of ?fans? turn to the Dark Side?hate-spewing assholes looking to ruin the party for everyone, and often succeeding. Notice the words "small but determined" minority. It doesn't preclude people having legitimate grievances with TLJ, but its onus is to focus on the people who post the garbage the article quotes verbatim.

 

[Saelune]

From what I understand, a number people are unhappy about the direction Star Wars as a franchise seems to be going, for several different reasons, and want to express their discontent in the only way that actually has a chance of making Disney care; Solo just happens to be the one that's coming out at the moment. I'd be very surprised if the same people don't call for a boycott of Episode IX and whichever spinoff comes after that, barring some actual shakeup at Disney/Lucasfilms.

Now, me, I have to wonder just what precisely people expected would happen when a self-contained, concluded saga was bought by a soulless corporation with no conceivable interest in it other than turning it into a perpetual money-printing machine, but hey... to each their own.

EDIT: Because I just stumbled upon this... have a video. It does a pretty good job of explaining what has been going on with Star Wars and disgruntled fans, I thought.

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

You are not making your position any better if you don't respond to these arguments.

This isn't someone saying to "Killing people randomly is good" scenario where you can just right it off with ease.

This video has 10 minutes of a guy explaining his side. An explination I feel deserves a rebuttle.

Not every side deserves to have their opinions considered. If his side was worth listening to, he would have not title his video in a way that only encourages people in his echo chamber to watch it and piss off the other side. It is not meant to encourage honest debate between differing sides, it is meant to antagonize.

 

[Saelune]

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

Yes, I thought someone might object to that.

You know what, fair enough. TL;DW, Becker showcases tons of Youtube channels from people of all walks of life who, much like himself, have made videos criticizing current Star Wars films for a variety of reasons, and points out that the response has been, on the part of so-called "professional" media, to completely ignore said criticism and instead publish demonstrably biased trash like this [http://archive.li/P0lap], and on Disney's and Lucasfilms', to adopt the Paul Feig approach to marketing and PR, apparently believing the only reason it didn't work two years ago was that they weren't quite insulting enough towards their own audience.

Here is a video that summarizes many of my issues with the new Star Wars films without devolving into a sexist tirade of BS.




Yes, for those aware of the channel, often his videos are more for humor sake, but this was a lot more legit criticism than just jokes.


Look, I actually think the new Star Wars are pretty terrible, but the diversity is actually the one good thing about them. Unfortunately, the sexists and racists are making it harder for real criticism to apply. I blame no one but the bigots here...and J.J. Abrams.

 

[Saelune]

Honestly SJW arguments or complaining about SJWs or diversity is the biggest turn off for me nowadays when it comes to articles or Youtube videos. I know it sounds biased, but goddamn, I'm sick of seeing it shoved everywhere.

I am also sick of things being shoved on me. Like bigoted religious fundamentalism. So I tend to not feel bad about people being bothered when people try to force them to care about other people.


No one would have to deal with people preaching about equality if ya know, we had it.


It is like people complaining about the people screaming in the burning building next door cause they are trying to sleep.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

*sees 'SJW' in the title*


No, it is not a good video.


'But you did not even watch it!'


Yeah, and I also never stuck a wet fork into an electrical socket, I still know it is a bad idea.

Yes, I thought someone might object to that.

You know what, fair enough. TL;DW, Becker showcases tons of Youtube channels from people of all walks of life who, much like himself, have made videos criticizing current Star Wars films for a variety of reasons, and points out that the response has been, on the part of so-called "professional" media, to completely ignore said criticism and instead publish demonstrably biased trash like this [http://archive.li/P0lap], and on Disney's and Lucasfilms', to adopt the Paul Feig approach to marketing and PR, apparently believing the only reason it didn't work two years ago was that they weren't quite insulting enough towards their own audience.

Here is a video that summarizes many of my issues with the new Star Wars films without devolving into a sexist tirade of BS.




Yes, for those aware of the channel, often his videos are more for humor sake, but this was a lot more legit criticism than just jokes.


Look, I actually think the new Star Wars are pretty terrible, but the diversity is actually the one good thing about them. Unfortunately, the sexists and racists are making it harder for real criticism to apply. I blame no one but the bigots here...and J.J. Abrams.

Firstly, I hate Cinemasins.

Secondly, I just want Star Wars to look and feel like this, that's all:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/33/6f/cd/336fcd91ec84443c5b014055f85f7347.jpg

 

[Spade Lead]

I am taking my father and kids to their first midnight opening screening of a Star Wars movie because this is the last one I expect to have any desire to see in the opening month, much less opening night, and none of them have ever been to a Star Wars opening event, and I haven't been since Revenge of the Sith. TFA wanted to be good so hard that it ended up falling flat. It tried so hard to build off of nostalgia it didn't deserve that it had no unique qualities or interesting plot points that made me care. Rey was so badly written that a better director had to come along and come out with the only reasonable ass-pull excuse he could think of and it still made her an overpowered Mary Sue with no justification for her powers. I was satisfied with the way she was subsumed by the Dark Side in the cave (despite the fact that spending her entire life on a desert planet she still somehow managed to know how to swim as well as I did in high school, when I was the fastest swimmer in my group of friends and routinely spent all day every day in the summer in the pool or ocean) as a partial explanation for some of her strength, but the whole "Light Side rising to meet the power of the Dark" doesn't make sense on the simple premise of that is exactly what DIDN'T happen with Vader and Palpatine, and there is no justification for it in the previous canon.

I...really don't get this.

If you say "TLJ doesn't feel like Star Wars," sure, I'd bite - that's kind of the point of it. But looking at the films so far, what have we got? Force Awakens, which is basically New Hope 2.0, and that extends to the ship design (Last Jedi at least gives us something new). We have Rogue One, which is different in tone, sure, but still a prequel, and drenched in nostalgia. Then we have Solo, which is another prequel, and drenched even further in nostalgia. If anything, apart from TLJ, Star Wars is feeling too much like Star Wars, or at least, is stuck in a rut about it.

The difference for me is simple. TLJ was a fun movie set in the wrong universe, that breaks the current universe by bringing in things that had don't belong in the saga. The very things that make Rogue One appealing are out of place in a movie set over 30 years after it takes place. The Republic and First Order should have been rival powers, not space terrorists funded by a corrupt government and a neo-nazi Parody that is supposedly evil just because of the way one guy gives a speech standing in front of a weapon that he then uses to decapitate the military and civil command structure of said corrupt government.


The problems with TLJ (Besides the blatant ant-capitalism and anti-weapons manufacturer propaganda) were the terrible story telling plotholes and the ridiculous message about "Toxic Masculinity" that people keep claiming aren't present in the movie. I enjoyed the movie in theaters way more than Episode VII, but once I started thinking about the actual storyline, the movie is just badly written and even worse in pacing.

Examples of the "Toxic Mascuinity" double standard include but are not limited to:


When Poe destroys the dreadnought he is rebuked for being negligent and foolhardy, despite the fact that within the next three scenes he is proven to not only have saved the fleet, but that had he failed to destroy the dreadnought the bomber fleet would have been destroyed in the hangar anyway, thus negating the whole argument anyway.

Then, when Finn wants to lead Rey away from the fleet, and despite the fact that he has literally fuck all to do with the Resistance, he is subdued as a deserter and told that he has no right to abandon the resistance he never signed up for, and is wrong for even considering it.

Then Vice Admiral Gender Studies informs Poe that Leia made a terrible decision that was based entirely on an incorrect assumption and he had no business being in the chain of command despite the fact that he was still 5th in the chain of command (He is still Commander Air Group, after all), and rather than being a decently competent military commander, she decided to be a living piece of incapable shit and violate the basic precept of military command "A busy crew is a happy crew." When she needed to be bolstering morale, she was off in her corner brooding about how everyone needs to shut the fuck up and watch their friends die because she orders it, violating the second most important order in a military command, "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

Several crewmembers help Poe foment a (Well deserved, at least by pirate and in my veteran opinion) mutiny, in the hopes that maybe a few more of the crew don't have to die even as Holdo sits there not only watching them to die, but encouraging them to do so, for the good of the resistance.

Rose becomes this annoying super-anti-capitalism messenger of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe, and the literally thousands of people in that casino could only ever be CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and on the board of directors for companies that manufacture weapons for the First Order. Then when DJ proves them wrong, he becomes a bad guy by turning on them and selling them out to the First Order, because "Oh, look at that" another Man Plan backfires and DJ overhears the plan Holdo should have relayed to Poe in the first place and uses it to save his own skin when shit goes sideways.

Meanwhile, Rey runs to the First Order flagship and is brought before Snoke like the incompetent idiot she actually is, and yet everything goes exactly as she needs it to, right until Kylo Ren decides not to join her because he is right there, and the ultimate power of supreme leader is too seductive to decline. So she just quietly walks away with a sad look on her face and literally no consequences.

Holdo gives her life for the Resistance, like she had planned on anyway, so despite the fact that her plan is damaged by the machinations of the evil men who ruined her plan, she still succeeded in saving the resistance.

Time and again we are shown Women succeeding while using the same stupid ass-backward tactics that the men do, but the women can't fail whereas the men fail even when they succeed (Poe).

I don't mind the female leads (Although not having a single reoccurring alien does tend to make the movies feel like there is no overlap), but the writing for the new trilogy is shit, and the directing and writing for Rogue One were much better, and I expect Ron Howard to do the same for Solo.

Disney Star Wars has none of the heart that the prequels did, even if they aren't as good, cinematically. Star Wars was about telling a story and pushing the boundary of film making, and the new trilogy hasn't really done either of those things.

Sorry, I used to take my Star Wars very seriously, before Disney ruined my interest with their idea to have JJ Abrams direct the first movie, put in a bunch of story threads that went nowhere, then have two other directors finish out the trilogy, each writing their movies as they wish without an overarching plan, or at least allowing the outlines JJ Abrams wrote to be thrown out by the follow-on directors, as Rian Johnson did.

Also, from a writer's standpoint, you can't have a story set 30 years after the first 6 movies be nothing but dead ends and mysteries that don't have answers or payoffs without it feeling like a separate universe, and that is probably why the new trilogy feels so different and removed from the OT to us. It just has nothing in common with the old movies despite ripping so much off from them.

 

[Hawki]

but the whole "Light Side rising to meet the power of the Dark" doesn't make sense on the simple premise of that is exactly what DIDN'T happen with Vader and Palpatine, and there is no justification for it in the previous canon.

Because if something doesn't happen before, it can never happen.

Nevermind that Anakin is concieved via the will of the Force, so it's well established to have an active hand in things.

The difference for me is simple. TLJ was a fun movie set in the wrong universe, that breaks the current universe by bringing in things that had don't belong in the saga.

Such as?

The very things that make Rogue One appealing

What things?

The Republic and First Order should have been rival powers, not space terrorists funded by a corrupt government and a neo-nazi Parody

Disagree it's a parody, but I'm sympathetic to this idea.

that is supposedly evil just because of the way one guy gives a speech standing in front of a weapon that he then uses to decapitate the military and civil command structure of said corrupt government.

In TFA alone, it's well established that the First Order abducts children and inducts them against their will, along with killing civilians wholesale. There's plenty to dislike about the First Order before the Hosnian system is destroyed.

The problems with TLJ (Besides the blatant ant-capitalism and anti-weapons manufacturer propaganda)

What?

were the terrible story telling plotholes and the ridiculous message about "Toxic Masculinity"

Oh God, here we go...

that people keep claiming aren't present in the movie.

Because they aren't.

I enjoyed the movie in theaters way more than Episode VII, but once I started thinking about the actual storyline, the movie is just badly written and even worse in pacing.

More I thought about it, the more I liked it.

When Poe destroys the dreadnought he is rebuked for being negligent and foolhardy, despite the fact that within the next three scenes he is proven to not only have saved the fleet, but that had he failed to destroy the dreadnought the bomber fleet would have been destroyed in the hangar anyway, thus negating the whole argument anyway.

Which is related to "toxic masculinity"...how, exactly?

Nevermind that your dreadnought claim is dubious for any number of reasons (range? Firing time? Accuracy?), you've clearly missed the point about Poe's actions, that playing the hero isn't something that always works out, even if it has in past iterations of the franchise. But that aside, if Poe was female, you could have the exact same scenario with the exact same dialogue (bar pronouns) and nothing would change. "Toxic masculinity/feminity" only works as a concept if it's related to gender. None of Poe's actions are.

Then, when Finn wants to lead Rey away from the fleet, and despite the fact that he has literally fuck all to do with the Resistance, he is subdued as a deserter and told that he has no right to abandon the resistance he never signed up for, and is wrong for even considering it.

Lead Rey away from the fleet?

Also, wrong, he helped the Resistance attack Starkiller Base, it's logical to assume he's part of the Resistance. And Rose calling him out on it has less to do with Finn, and more to do with her - she's never met Finn, but has heard of him, so him not living up to expectations (another theme) triggers the response in her (in part).

Then Vice Admiral Gender Studies

...seriously?

informs Poe that Leia made a terrible decision that was based entirely on an incorrect assumption and he had no business being in the chain of command despite the fact that he was still 5th in the chain of command (He is still Commander Air Group, after all),

What decision did Leia make?

How is he 5th in command? I mean, he could be, but we're aware of three Resistance admirals/leaders (Leia, Holdo, Ackbar), and he's already been demoted by this point.

and rather than being a decently competent military commander, she decided to be a living piece of incapable shit and violate the basic precept of military command "A busy crew is a happy crew." When she needed to be bolstering morale, she was off in her corner brooding about how everyone needs to shut the fuck up and watch their friends die because she orders it, violating the second most important order in a military command, "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

While the film could have benefitted from clarity at this (I thought it was obvious why she didn't tell many people - the risk of a First Order spy), Holdo's failure is, guess what, a failure in film that has themes dealing with failure.

Rose becomes this annoying super-anti-capitalism messenger

How?

of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe,

Where does it imply that?

and the literally thousands of people in that casino could only ever be CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and on the board of directors for companies that manufacture weapons for the First Order.

Again, where does it imply that? The impression I got was that most of the people in Canto Bight are regular people. Rich people, but still, regular. And while Canto Bight arguably has something to say against the arms trade (imagine that, politics in Star Wars...obviously that's never been present before), the major theme of Canto Bight is far more related to Finn's arc of seeing the world in the shades of grey it really is, rather than a more dualistic view.

Then when DJ proves them wrong, he becomes a bad guy by turning on them and selling them out to the First Order, because "Oh, look at that" another Man Plan backfires and DJ overhears the plan Holdo should have relayed to Poe in the first place and uses it to save his own skin when shit goes sideways.

Again, see the theme of failure.

Meanwhile, Rey runs to the First Order flagship and is brought before Snoke like the incompetent idiot she actually is,

Um, what? Rey's making the wrong decision. The reason she's making the wrong decision is she believes that because Luke was able to redeem Vader by travelling into the wolf's den, she can do the same, because, well, why wouldn't it? That doesn't make her incompetent, it makes her naieve - again, theme of failure.

thi and yet everything goes exactly as she needs it to,

What? Everything goes wrong until then. It goes wrong almost as soon as she boards the ship. Compare Kylo's mannerisms here to Vader's in RotJ.

right until Kylo Ren decides not to join her because he is right there, and the ultimate power of supreme leader is too seductive to decline. So she just quietly walks away with a sad look on her face and literally no consequences.

What?

Rey doesn't walk away - I'm assuming she runs, given the sorry state the Supremacy is in. And I disagree with your interpretation of Kylo's motives, but fine, let's move on.

Holdo gives her life for the Resistance, like she had planned on anyway, so despite the fact that her plan is damaged by the machinations of the evil men who ruined her plan, she still succeeded in saving the resistance.

I doubt her plan was the hyperspace kamikaze, when the original plan was to use the Raddus as a visual shield to hide the escape pods. And Holdo doesn't save the Resistance. She buys time, sure, but the First Order still lands on Crait. The Resistance still suffers. Luke is ultimately the one who saves the Resistance. It's Luke who's mythologized, not Holdo.

Time and again we are shown Women succeeding while using the same stupid ass-backward tactics that the men do, but the women can't fail whereas the men fail even when they succeed (Poe).

Right, because women never fail in Last Jedi.

Except Holdo. And Rey. And Rose. And Phasma. And...nup, that's all.

Oh, wait, Leia doesn't fail. So...anti-men, something something...

I don't mind the female leads (Although not having a single reoccurring alien does tend to make the movies feel like there is no overlap), but the writing for the new trilogy is shit,

Disagree.

I mean, I have gripes, sure, but the writing is a far cry from "shit."

and the directing and writing for Rogue One were much better,

Rogue One was lackustre. It's only saved by its third act. If you look at it from a writing standpoint, it's lacklustre.

Sorry, I used to take my Star Wars very seriously, before Disney ruined my interest with their idea to have JJ Abrams direct the first movie, put in a bunch of story threads that went nowhere,

Such as?

Bearing in mind that there's still one film that can answer them (though really, what's there left to answer about TFA apart from Maz getting Luke's lightsaber, and Snoke, where argubaly, answering stuff about him would be detrimental)

least allowing the outlines JJ Abrams wrote to be thrown out by the follow-on directors, as Rian Johnson did.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars%3A_Episode_VIII_The_Last_Jedi#Development

That's a gross oversimplification. Also ignores that TFA ignored Lucas's original Ep. 7 ideas, but Ep. 8 re-uses them.

Star Wars is long past the stage of original authoratorial intent. It's arguably been that way since the EU.

Also, from a writer's standpoint, you can't have a story set 30 years after the first 6 movies be nothing but dead ends and mysteries that don't have answers or payoffs

Such as?

Other than Snoke.

without it feeling like a separate universe, and that is probably why the new trilogy feels so different and removed from the OT to us. It just has nothing in common with the old movies despite ripping so much off from them.

Disagree. TFA is soaked in nostalgia. TLJ distances itself from it. That's only 33% of the new trilogy being "removed" (or "mimicking"). Frankly, IMO, it should have distanced itself from the start. If you're going to give us a 30 year time jump, make it seem like a thirty year time jump.

 

[Ogoid]

"Dozens" is being generous.

Fair enough, poor choice of words. "Several", then.

Since he's fond of the potato analogy, let's say I want to address the issue of homophobia. I show people showing that they're not homophobic. That doesn't disprove the notion the homophobia exists. Or to address the video directly, congratulations, not everyone is an asshole who likes to make death threats against directors and verbally abuse anyone who might disagree with them. Doesn't change the fact that those people still exist.

Well, yes, those people exist; this is the internet. One can find examples of people being asses in any particular way if they really want to...

An article that points out toxic fandom, that provides direct quotes of detestable language...is baised? One its first paragraphs is Something is deeply broken among the Star Wars faithful. Respectable discourse has deterioriated completely as a small but determined minority of ?fans? turn to the Dark Side?hate-spewing assholes looking to ruin the party for everyone, and often succeeding. Notice the words "small but determined" minority. It doesn't preclude people having legitimate grievances with TLJ, but its onus is to focus on the people who post the garbage the article quotes verbatim.

...but to act like they're representative of anything but their own personal inadequacies only betrays one's own personal biases, as far as I'm concerned.

Here is a video that summarizes many of my issues with the new Star Wars films without devolving into a sexist tirade of BS.




Yes, for those aware of the channel, often his videos are more for humor sake, but this was a lot more legit criticism than just jokes.


Look, I actually think the new Star Wars are pretty terrible, but the diversity is actually the one good thing about them. Unfortunately, the sexists and racists are making it harder for real criticism to apply. I blame no one but the bigots here...and J.J. Abrams.

Yes, I saw that. It's a good video.

Thing is? It makes pretty much the exact same points as most of these supposed "sexists and racists", including those I've linked to in this very thread.

Really, if anyone can rise up to Becker's challenge and find him a video with wide support saying, to put it in Pablo "Brand Communications Manager" Hidalgo's so very artful words, that "Our continued and debilitating obsession with our childhood passions was caveman masculine until the dames ruined it"... I would very much like to watch him eat that picture on live stream.

 

[Spade Lead]

but the whole "Light Side rising to meet the power of the Dark" doesn't make sense on the simple premise of that is exactly what DIDN'T happen with Vader and Palpatine, and there is no justification for it in the previous canon.

Because if something doesn't happen before, it can never happen.

Nevermind that Anakin is concieved via the will of the Force, so it's well established to have an active hand in things.

The difference for me is simple. TLJ was a fun movie set in the wrong universe, that breaks the current universe by bringing in things that had don't belong in the saga.

Such as?

Shields don't stop missiles but do stop plasma blasts that arc parabolicly through space. Ships can continuously acclerate through space at such a rate that they can't catch each other, but other smaller ships can out accelerate them and then fly through those shields or hit through those shields with missiles or blaster rounds. Ships just randomly line up behind each other in whatever formation they feel works without a single thought to fire-arcs, overlapping shields, or fields of fire while giving chase. Autopilot doesn't exist and can't pilot a ship in a straight line so that people can evacuate it without cluing in the First Order that a ship is empty. X-Wings can fly between turbolaser turrets but TIE fighters can't, despite the fact that TIEs are traditionally more maneuverable due to a lack of shields. Missile turrets are no longer a thing that can target X-Wings, despite the fact that one targeted a TIE fighter in TFA. Shields in the Sequel Trilogy no longer work in the same way they did in the Original Trilogy or Prequel Trilogy, and are actually less effective than either. I can certainly come up with more if you would like...

The very things that make Rogue One appealing

What things?

The nostalgia: The action, the factions, the struggle, the way things feel familiar

that is supposedly evil just because of the way one guy gives a speech standing in front of a weapon that he then uses to decapitate the military and civil command structure of said corrupt government.

In TFA alone, it's well established that the First Order abducts children and inducts them against their will, along with killing civilians wholesale. There's plenty to dislike about the First Order before the Hosnian system is destroyed.

Granted, but that is really no worse than the Clone Troopers in the terms of slavery, and we are meant to root for the Republic.

I enjoyed the movie in theaters way more than Episode VII, but once I started thinking about the actual storyline, the movie is just badly written and even worse in pacing.

More I thought about it, the more I liked it.

And that is your prerogative, but the Canto Bight scene is completely unnecessary, overly drawn out, and does nothing to further the story except give Rose a chance to speak out about how evil rich people are destroying the galaxy simply by making lots of money and spending it how they want

When Poe destroys the dreadnought he is rebuked for being negligent and foolhardy, despite the fact that within the next three scenes he is proven to not only have saved the fleet, but that had he failed to destroy the dreadnought the bomber fleet would have been destroyed in the hangar anyway, thus negating the whole argument anyway.

Which is related to "toxic masculinity"...how, exactly?

This was all one long series of examples building to a single point...

Nevermind that your dreadnought claim is dubious for any number of reasons (range? Firing time? Accuracy?), you've clearly missed the point about Poe's actions, that playing the hero isn't something that always works out, even if it has in past iterations of the franchise. But that aside, if Poe was female, you could have the exact same scenario with the exact same dialogue (bar pronouns) and nothing would change. "Toxic masculinity/feminity" only works as a concept if it's related to gender. None of Poe's actions are.

Then, when Finn wants to lead Rey away from the fleet, and despite the fact that he has literally fuck all to do with the Resistance, he is subdued as a deserter and told that he has no right to abandon the resistance he never signed up for, and is wrong for even considering it.

Lead Rey away from the fleet?

Also, wrong, he helped the Resistance attack Starkiller Base, it's logical to assume he's part of the Resistance. And Rose calling him out on it has less to do with Finn, and more to do with her - she's never met Finn, but has heard of him, so him not living up to expectations (another theme) triggers the response in her (in part).

Then Vice Admiral Gender Studies

...seriously?

My favorite nickname for her, but more based on the fact that she is obviously a political appointee with all the right connections than a truly great commander with a long list of actual accomplishments.

informs Poe that Leia made a terrible decision that was based entirely on an incorrect assumption and he had no business being in the chain of command despite the fact that he was still 5th in the chain of command (He is still Commander Air Group, after all),

What decision did Leia make?

How is he 5th in command? I mean, he could be, but we're aware of three Resistance admirals/leaders (Leia, Holdo, Ackbar), and he's already been demoted by this point.

Leia demoted him, and he is fifth in command behind Admiral Holdo, Captain of the flagship, XO of the flagship, OPS, and possibly one more CO who may or may not outrank him. This is based on him still being Commander Air Group, who is normally 3rd in line of succession behind the CO and XO on an Aircraft Carrier, but also having two visiting Admirals and Commanders to replace Leia and Ackbar who were incapacitated.

and rather than being a decently competent military commander, she decided to be a living piece of incapable shit and violate the basic precept of military command "A busy crew is a happy crew." When she needed to be bolstering morale, she was off in her corner brooding about how everyone needs to shut the fuck up and watch their friends die because she orders it, violating the second most important order in a military command, "Never give an order you know won't be obeyed."

While the film could have benefitted from clarity at this (I thought it was obvious why she didn't tell many people - the risk of a First Order spy), Holdo's failure is, guess what, a failure in film that has themes dealing with failure.

Rose becomes this annoying super-anti-capitalism messenger

How?

of how there is literally only one way to become rich in the entire fucking universe,

Where does it imply that?

In the movie her lines are literally "There is only one business that gets you this rich in the whole galaxy. Selling weapons to the First Order."

and the literally thousands of people in that casino could only ever be CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and on the board of directors for companies that manufacture weapons for the First Order.

Again, where does it imply that? The impression I got was that most of the people in Canto Bight are regular people. Rich people, but still, regular. And while Canto Bight arguably has something to say against the arms trade (imagine that, politics in Star Wars...obviously that's never been present before), the major theme of Canto Bight is far more related to Finn's arc of seeing the world in the shades of grey it really is, rather than a more dualistic view.

Then when DJ proves them wrong, he becomes a bad guy by turning on them and selling them out to the First Order, because "Oh, look at that" another Man Plan backfires and DJ overhears the plan Holdo should have relayed to Poe in the first place and uses it to save his own skin when shit goes sideways.

Again, see the theme of failure.

Meanwhile, Rey runs to the First Order flagship and is brought before Snoke like the incompetent idiot she actually is,

Um, what? Rey's making the wrong decision. The reason she's making the wrong decision is she believes that because Luke was able to redeem Vader by travelling into the wolf's den, she can do the same, because, well, why wouldn't it? That doesn't make her incompetent, it makes her naieve - again, theme of failure.

thi and yet everything goes exactly as she needs it to,

What? Everything goes wrong until then. It goes wrong almost as soon as she boards the ship. Compare Kylo's mannerisms here to Vader's in RotJ.

right until Kylo Ren decides not to join her because he is right there, and the ultimate power of supreme leader is too seductive to decline. So she just quietly walks away with a sad look on her face and literally no consequences.

What?

Rey doesn't walk away - I'm assuming she runs, given the sorry state the Supremacy is in. And I disagree with your interpretation of Kylo's motives, but fine, let's move on.[]

Holdo gives her life for the Resistance, like she had planned on anyway, so despite the fact that her plan is damaged by the machinations of the evil men who ruined her plan, she still succeeded in saving the resistance.

I doubt her plan was the hyperspace kamikaze, when the original plan was to use the Raddus as a visual shield to hide the escape pods. And Holdo doesn't save the Resistance. She buys time, sure, but the First Order still lands on Crait. The Resistance still suffers. Luke is ultimately the one who saves the Resistance. It's Luke who's mythologized, not Holdo.

Yes, but in Holdo's original plan she was intending to jump the ship one final time to some undisclosed location, run out of fuel, and die valiantly while the First Order tore her ship apart, unless they were smart enough to go "Hey, why did they just jump to hyperspace after driving right past this planet, I bet that someone went down there and is hiding out to either send a message or even escape in the ensuing chaos..." Her plan was half-assed at best, and the fact that DJ betrayed them probably had no bearing on why Holdo's plan failed at all, when viewed from the lens of "What would any reasonable human think happened if they were lead on a chase for dozens of hours to a point just past a planet, where suddenly the enemy flagship jumped to hyperspace?" And it wasn't like the First Order didn't have enough ships to leave some behind to investigate the planet at the same time the flagship followed her and commenced a boarding operation at the flagship's final destination.

To go back to your point about Rey running away, she is shown in the movie to slowly turn and walk away as Kylo stands there watching her leave, so it isn't like she fled in a panic, she just sadly shook her head and left the scene, disappointed that Kylo hadn't renounced the Dark side as she was sure he intended to.

Also, nothing went wrong for the fleet between the time Holdo assumed command and the First Order began firing on the cloaked transports.

As for the theme of failure, the women are shown to be strong, clear headed, and thoughtful, while the men are brash, impulsive, and ruin everything for everyone else. Leia puts an end to the mutiny with a single well placed shot despite being in a coma the entire movie, Holdo's plan was basically a success because the resistance still made good their escape, despite the glaring and terrible flaws in her stupid plan, and while she had to do the hyperspace ram instead of giving her life in a different method, the ultimate goal was still achieved.

Time and again we are shown Women succeeding while using the same stupid ass-backward tactics that the men do, but the women can't fail whereas the men fail even when they succeed (Poe).

Right, because women never fail in Last Jedi.

Except Holdo. And Rey. And Rose. And Phasma. And...nup, that's all.

Oh, wait, Leia doesn't fail. So...anti-men, something something...

Leia and Holdo's plans came off without a hitch, despite the fact that they were obviously flawed as hell, except where the men screwed them over.

I don't mind the female leads (Although not having a single reoccurring alien does tend to make the movies feel like there is no overlap), but the writing for the new trilogy is shit,

Disagree.

I mean, I have gripes, sure, but the writing is a far cry from "shit."

and the directing and writing for Rogue One were much better,

Rogue One was lackustre. It's only saved by its third act. If you look at it from a writing standpoint, it's lacklustre.

I don't disagree that the story pacing is slower in Rogue One, but the writing is still more character oriented than TFA and TLJ, which take the established characters and dismiss literally all growth over the course of the original trilogy, while the only two original characters who have any development at all are Hux (who got shit on during TLJ) and Kylo Ren, who obviously is the protagonist of the new trilogy because he is the only one with any back story.

Sorry, I used to take my Star Wars very seriously, before Disney ruined my interest with their idea to have JJ Abrams direct the first movie, put in a bunch of story threads that went nowhere,

Such as?

Bearing in mind that there's still one film that can answer them (though really, what's there left to answer about TFA apart from Maz getting Luke's lightsaber, and Snoke, where argubaly, answering stuff about him would be detrimental)

There is no explanation how the First Order has basically unlimited resources, with the ability to kidnap children and brainwash them, where the Knights of Ren came from or went, the problem is actually that now that 8 is out, all the really big mysteries that made 7 seem like it was a good base to build off of, can't be answered because Snoke is dead, as is the logical and reasonable places to get answers like Luke or even Leia, who is still alive in canon but there is no possible way to include her in the next film.

least allowing the outlines JJ Abrams wrote to be thrown out by the follow-on directors, as Rian Johnson did.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars%3A_Episode_VIII_The_Last_Jedi#Development

That's a gross oversimplification. Also ignores that TFA ignored Lucas's original Ep. 7 ideas, but Ep. 8 re-uses them.

Star Wars is long past the stage of original authoratorial intent. It's arguably been that way since the EU.

That is very true, but the whole problem is that there is no grand unified design for the final trilogy, not that it is different from Lucas' (I unapologetically enjoy the Prequels and consider them superior to the Sequels). If someone stood up and said "This is my story, I like it, and we are moving forward with it according to my vision" I would be less annoyed by the minor niggles than the way it is playing out now where everyone is just kind of running with what is on screen and letting the story come about as it is written without any end goal in mind while writing. Except now that JJ is writing the final one again, the middle one is probably going to be out of place, since it is the only one not directed by him, which sucks because it was the more enjoyable of the two.

Also, from a writer's standpoint, you can't have a story set 30 years after the first 6 movies be nothing but dead ends and mysteries that don't have answers or payoffs

Such as?

Other than Snoke.

Where the First Order came from, where they get their resources, how they could afford to build Starkiller base and their Star Destroyers, what happened to the Knights of Ren, and where did they come from, What happened to the Republic heroes and military, all the Jedi stuff...

without it feeling like a separate universe, and that is probably why the new trilogy feels so different and removed from the OT to us. It just has nothing in common with the old movies despite ripping so much off from them.

Disagree. TFA is soaked in nostalgia. TLJ distances itself from it. That's only 33% of the new trilogy being "removed" (or "mimicking"). Frankly, IMO, it should have distanced itself from the start. If you're going to give us a 30 year time jump, make it seem like a thirty year time jump.

I agree that they should have made it feel more like a thirty year time jump (I assumed it would because the TIE fighter designs and X-Wing designs felt like great transitions in the trailer, and then felt let down by the actual movie because of how much of the story was) and should have done more to distance itself from the OT. That was my whole point.