A question for the ladies.

[FuzzyRaccoon]

As kind of a counter to this particular example, let's say that after you tried really hard, you asked me what I thought. If I thought it was terrible I'll say as much. If you don't want my honest opinion, then you shouldn't be asking me in the first place.

You don't have to lie to be friendly.

- I think that your painting/meal could be better, maybe you could improve *insert whatever here*. Honest and friendly.
- I think that your painting/meal is terrible, it's honestly really, really bad. Honest and unfriendly.
- I think that your painting/meal is great! Dishonest and unfriendly (really... lying is by definition unfriendly).

Some people won't appreciate the honest and friendly approach either. Think about it. You worked super hard on something, and someone comes in, looks at it or tries it, and starts critiquing it like they're suddenly experts and can do that. When you talk to a sensitive person, you have to be pretty careful about it. You can't just smile at them and give them alternatives, in spanish that'd probably come off as you mocking them.
:/

 

[Hagi]

I agree with you on principle that if something upsets you then it's not irrelevant... but in practice I can't really take that to heart. If I think it's something dumb to be mad over, then I'll feel that regardless of pep-talk. Isn't that how people are, irrational?

However... on the basis of anger I don't really agree with you. I do think it's something healthy to experience. I can also tell you that I don't bottle EVERYTHING up inside. I just tend to favor talking things out logically if at all possible. I can say terrible things in anger, and I don't want to hurt someone I care about, that wouldn't be helpful for either of us. I think you're thinking about this whole anger business in a very lopsided way.

You don't have to blow up in anyone's face.

Even if you think it's somehow dumb there's no harm in muttering a little:
*grumble* well he/she COULD have at least TRIED differently! *grumble*
to yourself. If it makes you feel better and you don't hurt anyone then what's the harm?

Anger doesn't mean losing all logical and rational thought. It just means anger. You can be pissed off and logical at the same time. You can avoid hurting someone's feelings and still tell them straight to the point that what they did was NOT cool, SERIOUSLY NOT cool.

And how exactly is my thinking lopsided?

 

[QuantumT]

For clarification, as it apparently wasn't obvious enough that it was just an example -_-' .. I've edited my post.

No I understood that, it's just a particular situation that tends to bug me and I felt I needed to respond to it.

You don't have to lie to be friendly.

- I think that your painting/meal could be better, maybe you could improve *insert whatever here*. Honest and friendly.
- I think that your painting/meal is terrible, it's honestly really, really bad. Honest and unfriendly.
- I think that your painting/meal is great! Dishonest and unfriendly (really... lying is by definition unfriendly).

I completely agree. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to be rude.

A bit more OT, I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing for women to cut guys a bit of slack in this department sometimes. It's not that we don't want to realize what it is that you're angry about, it's just that we're honestly a bit clueless sometimes.

 

[Mariena]

As kind of a counter to this particular example, let's say that after you tried really hard, you asked me what I thought. If I thought it was terrible I'll say as much. If you don't want my honest opinion, then you shouldn't be asking me in the first place.

You don't have to lie to be friendly.

- I think that your painting/meal could be better, maybe you could improve *insert whatever here*. Honest and friendly.
- I think that your painting/meal is terrible, it's honestly really, really bad. Honest and unfriendly.
- I think that your painting/meal is great! Dishonest and unfriendly (really... lying is by definition unfriendly).

Exactly.. Constructive Criticism. I've learned to be helpful in that regard. "Nice work. I can clearly see you did a really good job on [this and that], but [these things] could use a little work. Here, I'll show you what I mean. It's heading the right way though!"

Bam! Helpful, friendly, the person will feel encouraged to improve on his/her work and you should feel better, because you helped someone. At least, that's what works for me.

I feel no need to be blunt and upset the more sensitive..

 

[Ionait]

It depends on the other person. Some people are more open to honest and friendly critique than others, and there is definitely a time and a place for everything. I can't clean with my husband around because sometimes he'll go into "let me show you how to mop this way, if you do it like this you can get done faster and it'll still be as clean". And, in most cases he's right. But do I really want to be stopped and given a lesson on mopping? No. Do I need one. Maybe. I am kind of slow with most chores.

There are other things that I love getting critique on and I'm proud to say that hearing from my husband has improved things.

If you really want to give someone you care about any kind of critique, feel them out for the best moment, where they will be receptive, willing to learn, and not so annoyed they just block you out and get angry with you.

 

[Mariena]

For clarification, as it apparently wasn't obvious enough that it was just an example -_-' .. I've edited my post.

No I understood that, it's just a particular situation that tends to bug me and I felt I needed to respond to it.

Oh, okay. Lol.

I've got fairly thick skin, so I wouldn't mind. I'll expect you to shut up if I didn't ask for it, though >.> But then I'd probably not present my work in the first place.

 

[Hagi]

Some people won't appreciate the honest and friendly approach either. Think about it. You worked super hard on something, and someone comes in, looks at it or tries it, and starts critiquing it like they're suddenly experts and can do that. When you talk to a sensitive person, you have to be pretty careful about it. You can't just smile at them and give them alternatives, in spanish that'd probably come off as you mocking them.
:/

I consider that their problem. If I'm polite, honest and friendly then they need to grow a thicker skin.

I'm not insulting them, I'm trying to help them. If they get offended by that? Well there's 6 billion other people on this planet, I'm sure they'll be able to find someone else who'll lie to them.

And how do you say it? "No hablo Español"? I'm not sure I get what you mean by it coming off as mocking in Spanish.

 

[Evidencebased]

Spoiler: snip

You're wasting your time on a girl that clams up and doesn't share her feelings with you. Even more so due to the fact that she's uncomfortable with you because most likely she'll find consolation through another guy. This guy pretends to be the whiteknight because he wants the pussy and this is probably the most attention he's ever gotten from a girl so does his best to try be understanding and deep. Whether you're the good or bad guy here, you lost her when she shuts up about what's going on through her head about the relationship. That, or you have a miserable girlfriend for the rest of the relationship. Don't waste each other's time.

Paranoid much? Your girlfriend being pissed off at you doesn't mean she's cheating on you, dude. (Though if you think the only reason to be nice to a girl is because you want "the pussy" then I don't see you having a lot of girlfriends in the future...)

If you're only way of showing compassion is for someone else's girlfriend going through a tough time, and you're not telling her that maybe she should work things out with her boyfriend, then you're just enabling an emotional affair. You are not a white knight, you're just some sleazebag that doesn't have enough substance to initiate a relationship based on your own merits. Because once that facade runs out and you no longer have an enemy to team up against, you deserve what you get as well.

Also, congratulations on reading one of the multiple situations I've stated.

Men and women can have friendships in which no one is "white knighting" and in which neither party is interested in the other romantically. I do it all the time. And listening to someone who is having problems with her boyfriend is called being a friend, not "enabling an emotional affair."

Glad you think the situation's about you. If she only talks to you about their problems, what use are you in their relationship? Are you there to make her feel good and help her ride it out with her abusive boyfriend? The best you can do is help her leave without the ulterior motive of you picking up where he left off. If something happens to spark between you two after the fact is neither here nor there. But the point is, if she refuses to talk about the situation at hand between her boyfriend, their wasting each other's time, regardless whether or not you're in the picture.

I'm a woman -- and not a homewrecker -- so I'm not really "in the picture" the way you mean anyways. But I think that it can be very valuable for people to have someone outside the relationship to bounce things off of, or to vent to. If the girl never talks to her boyfriend then that's a problem, but just because she talks to someone else sometimes doesn't automatically mean the relationship's doomed or that the someone else has ulterior motives. Usually her "girlfriends" can perform this function but I don't see any reason a guy friend couldn't.

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

You don't have to blow up in anyone's face.

Even if you think it's somehow dumb there's no harm in muttering a little:
*grumble* well he/she COULD have at least TRIED differently! *grumble*
to yourself. If it makes you feel better and you don't hurt anyone then what's the harm?

Anger doesn't mean losing all logical and rational thought. It just means anger. You can be pissed off and logical at the same time. You can avoid hurting someone's feelings and still tell them straight to the point that what they did was NOT cool, SERIOUSLY NOT cool.

And how exactly is my thinking lopsided?

What I said before was what I meant about being lopsided. Because as nice as that thought is, anger isn't always reasonable. You're thinking about it in one part. If you feel so angry you want to smash that person's face in, don't you think it's more reasonable to not say anything about it? I don't know, when I personally get mad, there really isn't rational about it. I'm the sort that feels it like a sudden rush, powerful and out of nowhere, just suddenly there. It wouldn't be fair to explode on someone like that, don't you think? Sometimes I feel the slight anger and yeah I agree it's fair to let that out, but how can exploding on someone ever be socially good, (despite how cathartic if might feel to actually do so).

 

[FuzzyRaccoon]

I consider that their problem. If I'm polite, honest and friendly then they need to grow a thicker skin.

I'm not insulting them, I'm trying to help them. If they get offended by that? Well there's 6 billion other people on this planet, I'm sure they'll be able to find someone else who'll lie to them.

And how do you say it? "No hablo Español"? I'm not sure I get what you mean by it coming off as mocking in Spanish.

Ugh, yeah, but there are people like that out there. My mom is a perfect example. You have to be extra careful if you are going to be honest, because she takes any backlash as negative criticism. I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just really saying that when you actually go about it you also have to consider the person. It's nice to say theoretically that say my mom needs a thicker skin, but it's not going to happen any time soon is it?

Maybe you don't speak another language? But ah, words, phrases, even the way you think changes depending on the language in which you speak it. Spanish kind of has a playful air to it, if you critique someone, you'll have to be careful about how you do it. If you smile and go about it, you'll have to be particularly careful, because the combination could come off as mocking. A thoughtful expression while saying these things would be better.

All I'm saying in all of this is you really have to think about things, you can't just react.
x3.

 

[Hagi]

Exactly.. Constructive Criticism. I've learned to be helpful in that regard. "Nice work. I can clearly see you did a really good job on [this and that], but [these things] could use a little work. Here, I'll show you what I mean. It's heading the right way though!"

Bam! Helpful, friendly, the person will feel encouraged to improve on his/her work and you should feel better, because you helped someone. At least, that's what works for me.

I feel no need to be blunt and upset the more sensitive..

And if you really want to score, get actively involved.

Buy a recipe book and get cracking together. See if there's any weekly/monthly painting lessons in your area. etc.

It'll be just a few hours for yourself but he/she will feel like you're doing way more for him/her. And then next time you forget something or somehow upset him/her it should be a lot easier to deal with. Or likely you could spend 2-3 hours every evening gaming and receive no complaints.

Bam! Helpful, friendly, the person will feel encouraged, you feel better about helping someone AND you get off the hook for some other stuff.

ps. Awesome avatar. But it's mightily distracting, I keep checking if there's any frames I've missed...

 

[Samurai Silhouette]

Spoiler: snip

Spoiler: snip

You're wasting your time on a girl that clams up and doesn't share her feelings with you. Even more so due to the fact that she's uncomfortable with you because most likely she'll find consolation through another guy. This guy pretends to be the whiteknight because he wants the pussy and this is probably the most attention he's ever gotten from a girl so does his best to try be understanding and deep. Whether you're the good or bad guy here, you lost her when she shuts up about what's going on through her head about the relationship. That, or you have a miserable girlfriend for the rest of the relationship. Don't waste each other's time.

Paranoid much? Your girlfriend being pissed off at you doesn't mean she's cheating on you, dude. (Though if you think the only reason to be nice to a girl is because you want "the pussy" then I don't see you having a lot of girlfriends in the future...)

If you're only way of showing compassion is for someone else's girlfriend going through a tough time, and you're not telling her that maybe she should work things out with her boyfriend, then you're just enabling an emotional affair. You are not a white knight, you're just some sleazebag that doesn't have enough substance to initiate a relationship based on your own merits. Because once that facade runs out and you no longer have an enemy to team up against, you deserve what you get as well.

Also, congratulations on reading one of the multiple situations I've stated.

Men and women can have friendships in which no one is "white knighting" and in which neither party is interested in the other romantically. I do it all the time. And listening to someone who is having problems with her boyfriend is called being a friend, not "enabling an emotional affair."

Glad you think the situation's about you. If she only talks to you about their problems, what use are you in their relationship? Are you there to make her feel good and help her ride it out with her abusive boyfriend? The best you can do is help her leave without the ulterior motive of you picking up where he left off. If something happens to spark between you two after the fact is neither here nor there. But the point is, if she refuses to talk about the situation at hand between her boyfriend, their wasting each other's time, regardless whether or not you're in the picture.

I'm a woman -- and not a homewrecker -- so I'm not really "in the picture" the way you mean anyways. But I think that it can be very valuable for people to have someone outside the relationship to bounce things off of, or to vent to. If the girl never talks to her boyfriend then that's a problem, but just because she talks to someone else sometimes doesn't automatically mean the relationship's doomed or that the someone else has ulterior motives. Usually her "girlfriends" can perform this function but I don't see any reason a guy friend couldn't.

I've already agreed with you on outside conditions.

If the girl never talks to her boyfriend then that's a problem

This is what I'm focusing on, and we both agree.
Am I supposed to elaborate on the entire myriad of scenarios?
FYI, Friendship is magic, please, you don't have to explain it.

 

[meselfshimself]

I hate when women do that, but Ive had the odd male freind who has done it also. I dont think its a gender specific problem at all.

The pissed off persons frame of mind is:
"im pissed off and I shouldnt need to explain why to the person responsible - because it should be freaking obvious to them"

The person who did the pissing off's frame of mind is more often than not.
"WTF is wrong with this person and what did I do wrong? if they dont tell me the problem I cant bloody fix it!"

Its a common break down of communication I guess, but yes it usually happens between couples

The main difference between when a man does it and when a woman does it, is the response you get when you confont them.
for example:

You: Whats wrong?
Male freind: Nothing.
You: seriously whats wrong
Male friend: OK Fine!....(explains the problem)

You: Whats wrong?
Girl freind: Nothing.
You: seriously whats wrong
Girl friend: OH WHY DONT YOU HAVE A F**KING GEUSS!
(Fight ensues)

XD

 

[Hagi]

What I said before was what I meant about being lopsided. Because as nice as that thought is, anger isn't always reasonable. You're thinking about it in one part. If you feel so angry you want to smash that person's face in, don't you think it's more reasonable to not say anything about it? I don't know, when I personally get mad, there really isn't rational about it. I'm the sort that feels it like a sudden rush, powerful and out of nowhere, just suddenly there. It wouldn't be fair to explode on someone like that, don't you think? Sometimes I feel the slight anger and yeah I agree it's fair to let that out, but how can exploding on someone ever be socially good, (despite how cathartic if might feel to actually do so).

As I said. There's anger, which is fine. And there's going berserk, which isn't.

If you feel such a huge sudden rush of anger then calm down a little bit first, then confront the person with it. But don't let it go completely. We're emotional and rational beings, and those two aren't mutually exclusive.

Calm down to the point where you can think logically, but not to the point where you feel no anger at all. Moderation is key. Pissed off is great, exploding is not.

And moderation can be hard, but it's the only thing that, in my opinion, will actually improve your situation. Exploding will just lead to regrets, but letting go completely will make you feel insignificant and silly.

 

[Hagi]

Ugh, yeah, but there are people like that out there. My mom is a perfect example. You have to be extra careful if you are going to be honest, because she takes any backlash as negative criticism. I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just really saying that when you actually go about it you also have to consider the person. It's nice to say theoretically that say my mom needs a thicker skin, but it's not going to happen any time soon is it?

Maybe you don't speak another language? But ah, words, phrases, even the way you think changes depending on the language in which you speak it. Spanish kind of has a playful air to it, if you critique someone, you'll have to be careful about how you do it. If you smile and go about it, you'll have to be particularly careful, because the combination could come off as mocking. A thoughtful expression while saying these things would be better.

All I'm saying in all of this is you really have to think about things, you can't just react.
x3.

That's true. Being careful rarely hurts.

Though I do think your mother (or other family) are special exceptions. You can't really find another mother... Plus the bonds of family are, at least as far as my experience goes, very strong but still very different from the bonds of friendship or romantic love.

I personally don't think you have to be friends with your family. If you can be, that's great. But I consider it to be more about acceptance and support then real friendship. Family is special, and you treat them differently then you would everyone else.

If the person who couldn't take criticism wasn't family I'd say get rid of them unless they have some serious redeeming qualities.

 

[meselfshimself]

Men and womens brains are physically wired differently, that is a scientific fact, one is not better or worse overall than the other - they are just 'different'

Women are more emotional that guys in general, but they actually apply the emotional part of their brain for alot more other than 'feelings' they also combining it with their logical brain part for every day tasks (where men tend to just apply the logical part) this has its pros and cons.

To their advantage, women tend to be better at multi-tasking and puzzle solving than men.
To there disadvantage they tend to be a bit worse with some other logical things like map reading and sense of direction.

Of there are some exceptions to the rule.

 

[meselfshimself]

This guy puts it perfectly XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNzKN2EeA4s

 

[Hagi]

Men and womens brains are physically wired differently, that is a scientific fact, one is not better or worse overall than the other - they are just 'different'

Women are more emotional that guys in general, but they actually apply the emotional part of their brain for alot more other than 'feelings' they also combining it with their logical brain part for every day tasks (where men tend to just apply the logical part) this has its pros and cons.

To their advantage, women tend to be better at multi-tasking and puzzle solving that men.
To there disadvantage they tend to be a bit worse with some other logical things like map reading and sense of direction.

Of there are many exceptions to the rule.

That scientific research?

It's talking about populations. It's not talking about individual persons.
It's talking about averages across huge groups of extremely varied people. It's not talking about anyone you know.

Individual differences, even in the 'wiring' of the brain, are much larger then any other differences.

"Women" is not a person. Don't talk about it like it is. It's an average that's completely meaningless in day-to-day life. It only has meaning when talking about populations, not when talking about individuals.

When talking about populations the size of genders you only need a 1% difference for it to be statistically significant due to the huge possible sample size you're working with.

Statistics is about populations. It's not about individual persons.

 

[similar.squirrel]

This was very informative. Thank you. Just to clarify, I wasn't asking for relationship advice, because I'm currently single.
The question had just been bugging me for a while now.
Also, thanks for not labelling me sexist.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If a girl isn't telling you why she's mad, it's because you should already know. If you don't know, then you problem was likely one of consideration.

While not a complete re-direction, perhaps it's just something we don't need/want/know to consider?

For instance, if you are mad at us for not recognising your new X, perhaps it's because we don't know that you consider our opinion on X important. Especially when our opinion seems only appreciated if it agrees with yours...which you're not telling us.

That's really quite difficult to figure out.

Equally, if we're quite mad for you not recognising our new X, the standard counter is "Don't be so immature/oversensitive/sulky", which isn't really consideration for us.

(As usual, these are baselines. Individuals may/may not apply.)

One of the biggest problems of male/female relationships in general is that men tend to relax by forgetting (usually by retreating to their "cave"), while women tend to relax by sharing.

When you get men sharing or women retreating, that's often an entirely different set of emotions. (Joy or Pain, respectively)

The more a woman stands there in silence, the worse a guy feels. And the worse he feels, the more he'll try and "solve" your problem. And you already know how bad our "soloutions" can be. That's not how we recognise lack of consideration.

If we've really been a jerk, just say "You prat, how come you didn't X?", possibly followed up by a soft punch in the arm. It's a lot quicker, it doesn't get you as mad, and we're more likely to respond favourably.

Probably with flowers or chocolates. We're not too original.