A question to the grown adult men of the Escapist

[poppabaggins]

They're both 100% at fault.

Also, you can't say that the girl was only doing it because of the alcohol and then say that the guy would have done it even if he weren't drinking.

They're both disgusting people.

Intoxicated sex = rape. The law states that a person must be fully cognizant and capable of consenting.

My opinion is that this is an insult to all woman who are actually raped.

Drunken sex is not rape, I don't care what the law says, it is not rape.

Thank you for this. Thank you so much.

My personal favorite "rape" story has a girl that invites a guy back to her room, gets them both drunk on her alcohol, has sex with the guy and then claims that he raped her. He was found guilty. Complete bullshit.

Going to a party and getting completely trashed is like walking into the lion's den covered in steaks. Sure, it sucks that you get eaten, but you're an idiot for putting yourself in that situation, and you have no right to complain to the people who get attacked by lions randomly on the street.

...I might have taken that metaphor too far.

 

[electric method]

I am old school when it comes to stuff like this. If he knew 100% she was in a relationship it should have been an automatic, do not touch. Don't even think about it, and that is drunk or sober even if he was asked to have sex with her. Total douche move. Further more it shows that he didn't give a crap about the consequences of his actions. The consequences in this case being how it would effect her or you. And the lack of a condom.... just places it even farther out there.

All that being said; her actions are just as crappy as his. One doesn't place themselves in that position without reason. More to the point, one doesn't put themself in a position like that if they are in a commited relationship if they want to STAY in that relationship.

Speaking as a person who has been cheated on before I can certainly empathize with the O.P. It's also the reason why I follow this rule; "Screw me once shame on you. Screw me twice shame on me." From experience, there is almost no coming back from a situation like this. All the trust and respect is gone. Secondly, if one did want it to work out, then both people would have to completely commit to making it work. Good luck.

 

[Gudrests]

I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left.
Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

Wow....begging for it?..idk what to say...1 break it off with her she clearly cant handle being alone and in a relationship 2 that guy is a 8-10 easy...thats fucked up...3 knock him out....pretty much sums up your next 3 steps in life. Good luck and I hope that never happens to you again man...it blows

 

[synobal]

Drunk or stoned chicks are not sexy. So not sexy that I wouldn't have sex with scarlett Johansson if she was stoned or drunk out of her mind.

 

[Jibblejab]

Let's look at it another way: you say alcohol does not excuse behaviour, so let's remove it from this story.

Hot girl sitting at a coffee shop, your friend's girlfriend. You walk up and start chatting. It becomes flirting, when you jokingly suggest taking it further. Girl says yes. You go home, she asks if you have a condom. You say no, girl says 'oh well' and gets on with it.

The guy in that situation was indeed a dick for even considering such an action, but who was the one actually responsible?

I never thought of it like that

Genius. You sir, are the messiah.

 

[ferd mertz]

I didn't read all 200+ posts so I might be repeating things others have already said but here's my thoughts.......

There are too many unknown factors to simply slap a number onto this situation that determiners how fucked up what this guy did. How drunk was he? Did he have a thing for her beforehand? Is she the flirty touchy type that sends mixed signals while sober? Does this guy know her significant other? To what extent?

This is a sampling of some factors that could change his actions from a 9 to a 2 or from a 2 to a 9.

Either way you slice it they are both at fault and even in the worst circumstances (with the ONE exception being that he was completely/mostly sober) I would still only split the blame 70/30 in her favor. Sorry to say but it sounds like she is using alcohol as an excuse and demonizing the male to take blame off herself.

 

[INF1NIT3 D00M]

Situation described in this thread: OMG rape

Situation described in this thread if the genders were reversed: lol awesome

See that's the thing, I know how women feel about this. The situation would never be reversed.

Women don't have the same parts and/or responsibility shirking abilities as men either.

Right... Because women don't shirk responsibility. Heavy drinking, drug use, cheating, these are all things that men do because they have an amazing ability to completely disregard their responsibilities. It's entirely unique to them, I assure you. Something about the Y chromosome is obviously missing some genetic code regarding responsibility and common sense.

Genders have been reversed many times. In this situation, I wouldn't even say you described an "OMG rape" scenario, since both parties are drunk to the point that they lose self-control. This kind of thing happens all the time. You had my empathy until you essentially just called men out as a gender. Why do I have to defend my good name because some jackass with a Y chromosome had a drunken encounter with your girlfriend? Men in general are not the problem here, miss. Your girlfriend is.

You want to know how common it is for the average male to drink poisonous amounts of alcohol and do stupid things? Too common. However, it's also embarassingly common for women to drink poisonous amounts of alcohol and do stupid things. There, I've answered your OT. Discussing the habits of douchebags and whores is not going to enlighten you, nor will it put males in a positive light. If I had to hazard a guess without reading any more posts, I'd say it's 23% people defending men, 53% calling men evil, and 20% saying men aren't all bad and then giving you their condolences.

I'm not going to do that. I'm going to tell you what I tell everyone who informs me that they've been cheated on. I'll give it to you logically, then you can decide what to do.
I think you need to kick this chick to the curb. That's what I'd do, anyways. What she did wasn't just wrong, it's pretty much unforgivable. I mean that in the sense that it is almost impossible for you to forgive her even if you want to, and if you do, that doesn't mean there isn't still a problem. At the start of your relationship, or at some point during your relationship, you both agreed to only have sex with each other. Everyone has different terms, but most people settle on either "On pain of death" or "On pain of breakup". Well, she broke the terms of your agreement. Looking at it this way, the logical course of action is to leave and try to move on.
Alternative: You could try to give her a free pass on this one, but a common problem I've observed is that most people who choose this option never stop wondering if it has happened or will happen again. No longer can they handwave away their doubts by saying "It's never happened before, so-n-so wouldn't do that". It ends up being too much of a strain, or the person snaps and does it again for whatever reason, and they break up. This makes the period between original instance of cheating and breakup into this horrible emotional miasma where they don't feel truly forgiven and you don't trust them completely and it's no better than the emotions felt had the two of you broken up. All that right before the normal physical and emotional stress of the average breakup, if the relationship ends.

You're a grown-ass woman, make your own decisions. You hold righteous fury and contempt in one hand, and in the other an olive branch of forgiveness. Forgive this girl or condemn her. It's up to you, the end result makes no real difference to me. All I ask is that you leave my gender out of your decisionmaking. If you want to be pissed at that guy because slept with your beloved, I'll be first in line to kick his ass alongside you; and if he has any spine he'll admit he deserves it. If you want to make or hear blanket statements about men being horrible bastards I'm going to be the first to oppose you. You can hate that man, but I'll be damned before I let you hate all men because of his bad decisionmaking.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

That's what alcohol does. It takes away all inhibition. Both genders abuse that fact.

I also know that having sex hormones as well as alcohol fucking with your brain at any particular time makes it a thousand times harder to resist any obvious oppurtunity for sex.
Even a guy who would normally say 'no' in an instant under normal circumstances is going to be seriously considering it with a bit of alcohol in their system. And there aren't that many men who would say no in an instant regardless.


Try talking to the actual guy, if you know him. He will probably feel bad about it. He might not; some men are just jerks.


If you're in a relationship with the girl who slept with him, she's probably equally upset about having 'betrayed' you as she is about sleeping with the guy. Its not worth falling out with someone you love just because of a drunken decision, so try and help her feel less worried about you. Once everything has calmed down you can talk through your own feelings and hers.

 

[SweetNess_666]

I could never have sex with a drunk girl unless I was both in a relationship with her and also drunk.

I'd just feel too disgusting.

I agree, I'd have sex with my gf if she was drunk as I know she's on the pill and we've been together more than 3yrs n I live with herbut not passed out that's just wrong but if i was single I would never ever take advantage of a girl who was at the point of passing out, that's just.....wrong

 

[Queen Michael]

I'd say seven. Yes, she was drunk and he knew that she wouldn't have had sex with him sober, but when they were having sex she was okay with it. Okay, so she didn't say yes, but she didn't say no either... And nobody forced her to do it against her will; as far as I can gather she never indicated that she wanted him to stop. So I can't say it's that bad, it's not like he raped her, but he did have sex with someone in a relationship and that's just wrong.

 

[intheweeds]

I'm not denying that anyone can doing. I'm not saying that gender is the sole factor, merely that's it's a very large one, and shouldn't be dismissed.

Oh, I know. And I agree. But, somewhere several pages ago, someone was talking about how you can't tell what a rapist looks like, so you have to be cautious around any man you don't know because he could potentially be one.

I was merely expanding on that. Anyone could be.

Just like anyone could be a murder.

When you say that any man could be a rapist, it creates images of fearing all men because of what they might do.

When you say that everyone could be a murderer, it creates a more... general caution. People (or most people) don't avoid everyone because anyone could be a killer - they just accept that fact and proceed with caution.

That's a healthier perspective with rape. If you acknowledge that anyone COULD be, you can proceed with caution without being afraid of everyone. I think a lot of "bad feminists" get into the trap of believing that all men should be treated as rapists. And that would be as bad as treating every single person as if they were an axe murder.

One can be cautious and take personal responsibility without treating a person who has committed no crime as if they are a criminal simply because they're capable of it.

Also, when you say "everyone is capable" you are forced to include yourself. If a woman says "all men" then she is removing herself - men are, but she isn't. If she says "everyone" then she must admit that she is capable of that act herself. It changes the attitude.

Anyway, I'm rambling. You get the idea. I'm not trying to deny facts - I actually think that people should be more aware of how many people are hurt by rape each year - but we won't get anywhere with an "us vs them" attitude.

Rape is a problem for everyone - and we all need to work together and take personal responsibility to prevent rape.

This conversation you guys are having made me think of something i said a few pages back. See this is what confuses me about this situation:

I have some wonderful men in my life of all ages who i love and trust. Some of them have warned me to be careful around men. More than one has told me "men think differently when it comes to sex, you can't trust them", during a conversation about how i should be careful. I don't want to paint men with any kind of brush, but what is a woman supposed to think when she is being told by trusted men that men cannot be trusted when it comes to sex? Obviously not all men are pigs, I'm being told these things by men i love and trust and who have my best interests at heart? A few of which I have had sex with and are very definitely not pigs? Paradox anyone?

So should i not be worried about men and sex?

EDIT: wow that came off bad. I'm not trying to sound evil. I really just don't understand. That was the reason for making this thread in the first place was to get guys true thoughts rather than whatever i can figure out with my limited understanding of men's minds.

I think what you're describing is more each genders understanding of abuse.

It's socially accepted that if a man charms a woman into bed and then never speaks to her again. He's some sort of pig.

But if a woman was to do the same to a man, the only people who would call her on it are other women.

A man is far less likely to feel abused by a woman using him for sex. This sounds generalising, but it's true.

If a woman seduced me and I never heard from her again, I wouldn't be upset, rather I'd be happy that I had sex and now have something to bring up at my next poker night.

This again sounds generalising, because not all women are like this, but women are more likely to be upset that a man had used her for sex.

This is what your friends are warning you about. They're saying that there are some men who will say anything to get you into bed. It's a societal double standard that we don't expect women to be able to deal with that.

Basically it's a silly double standard that relies on the notion that all women want commitment and all men want carnal sation.

I guess my question to you then is this:

If a man knows that the next day a woman is far more likely to feel taken advantage of than you are, and you do it anyway, what does that say about the man's morals in general? This sets up a scenario where a woman feels dirty and upset the next day while the man is simultaneously joking and talking about her naked body at a poker game with no issues. If this behavior is common enough in men that they recognize it and feel the need to warn they're female loved ones about it, and they know that the feeling of disgust the next day is so common in women, why do men allow each other to act this way still? Why does male culture still allow for it and why shouldn't women be wary of every male stringer she meets in a bar?

Is it a biological chemical thing that i don't understand maybe? If so, I can't help but think women are right to be concerned even more so.

 

[Dumbfish1]

1 it's a definitive 1. I mean she really looked like she was okay with it then it's her responsibility too. I doubt anyone would be outraged if the foot was on the other shoe and she began touching him.

What about the fact that you knew damn well she wouldn't do it otherwise? And MOST importantly, she has a partner and you don't have a condom? This doesn't factor?

It's not a 1, more like 5. He shouldn't of made a move on her knowing she was dating someone else, however alchol isn't an excuse people can just throw around, she should have reasoned out her actions, cheating is the worst thing you can do to your partner.

 

[poleboy]

First of all, I wish you'd laid the facts on the table right away, so I wouldn't have had to read through 6 pages of people misunderstanding the actual question. But okay, it's a sticky situation and I can see why you didn't want to put up your personal issues on an internet forum. Yet you did anyway. So... yeah.

As for the actual question, the thing I dislike most about his behavior is that he knows both you and your GF (if I understand correctly) and yet decides to shag her anyway. That's class A asshole behavior right there. Being drunk and having irresponsible sex is minor compared to that, IMO.

 

[intheweeds]

I have been in a situation where a girl was naked and begging for it and i left.
Edit 3: I really wanted to try and keep it very impersonal so as to respect the situation and the fact that i have turned to the internet to understand it. I am the 'bloke' she 'cheated' on, so i am very much involved. It is an awkward situation and i love her very much, we have been together for four years and just moved in together. I wish to respect her here - she is absolutely disgusted with herself and can't stop crying. She knows she is wrong as well and neither of us are unclear about that fact, I'm just very curious about men's thoughts about this. Understand I'm not trying to hate on men. My experience with them sexually is limited I just wanted a gauge of your thoughts.

Wow....begging for it?..idk what to say...1 break it off with her she clearly cant handle being alone and in a relationship 2 that guy is a 8-10 easy...thats fucked up...3 knock him out....pretty much sums up your next 3 steps in life. Good luck and I hope that never happens to you again man...it blows

I think a lot of people can attest to the fact that a woman can be very different when she gets drunk when it comes to this kind of thing. If a woman is so drunk that she is dancing on tables and taking her clothes off, etc. It means she is stupid drunk. It doesn't mean she is fair game because she looks like she wants it is all i was saying. Its actually not that uncommon a scenario for a girl to be overly sexual when she gets overly drunk.

 

[Crimsom Storm]

1.

The sheer fact that you're asking the men what their reaction would be leads me to believe you somehow believe this is purely the guy's fault, and your friend is not at fault even though she wanted it just as much.

If anything, her boyfriend should dump her flat on her rear. She got drunk, she said yes, it's cheating. Don't try to excuse your friend and blame the guy. This entertains the idea that all women are innocent and pure, and it's those devilish men that corrupt them, oh noez. Ha Ha! No. Let her take all the blame for her infidelity.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I don't know if I'm best qualified to answer that. I would never have done that were I in that situation, that's for sure. However as far as guys go, I often get the feeling that I'm the exception not the rule.

 

[Smooth Operator]

If I understand the question correctly it comes down to two simple things for me:
1. I never mess with girls in a relationship
2. I never sleep with drunk girls

Mind you these two rules have scored me more then a few unkind words regarding my manhood, from women no less... it's nice to see respect being appreciated.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think a lot of people can attest to the fact that a woman can be very different when she gets drunk when it comes to this kind of thing. If a woman is so drunk that she is dancing on tables and taking her clothes off, etc. It means she is stupid drunk. It doesn't mean she is fair game because she looks like she wants it is all i was saying. Its actually not that uncommon a scenario for a girl to be overly sexual when she gets overly drunk.

That's on her, though. Incredibly, lots of people manage to make it through having a few drinks without fucking virtual strangers and devastating their partners. The guy in this scenario is a scumbag, but scumbags are a part of life. If you've ever had a girlfriend, the odds are pretty good at least a handful of scumbags put some effort into having sex with her at one time or another. Like death, or taxes, it is an inevitability. Normally the right thing to do in those situations, for the girl, is to say NO. Not "do you have a condom".

So...yeah. Guy was a scumbag, but he wasn't the one cheating. Girlfriend was.

However, if the guy was relatively sober, I think it's rape. Consensual sex is consensual when both parties are in the proper mindset to give consent. One of them being drunk is NOT being in the right mindset.

If she's sober enough to ask about a condom, she's sober enough to understand what she's doing. My GOD we love to let people off the hook for the shit they do while drunk on this forum. It's the get out of jail card for everything. Maybe Stalin was drunk while he was killing 20 million Russians. He's just a silly guy who had a little too much to drink!