A rant on PC fanboyism

[TrevHead]

Its different horses for courses. The controller type that the game / genre was designed for is best.

2D retro games: Dpad or arcade stick
RTS & Point and clickers: M&K
3D action games like Tomb Raider, DMC: Analog stick
Light Gun games: A light Gun or Wii Mote is nearlly as good
Simualtion Driving: Steering wheel and pedals
FPS: M+K (but that said a FPS that is totally designed for the analog stick doesnt quite translate to M+K as well, thats why theres cries of dumbing down for console)

This gen has really gotten everything mixed up with games been controlled with the wrong control type. Just look at all those 2D games that have analog stick control or worse mouse control.

Im playing Jamestown a bullet hell shmup on steam, its a great game but my only gripe I have with it is that it mixes up M+K plus analog with traditional dpad and arcade stick with no segregation in the leaderboards. This wouldnt be so bad if the game didnt give them an advantage due to the gunner ship that is overpowered compared to the other 3 ships, is even more overpowered with M&K or analog stick.

 

[Treblaine]

SNIP

W-A-S-D better than a d-pad for movement?!

Spoiler

The keyboard is very limited as a gaming input. Mostly because it isn't primarily designed to be one.

Keyboards can't even detect amount-of-pressure correctly, for Rah's sake.

Why not use a gamepad? Because of a very basic concept. Guaranteed equipment. AKA: What you automatically KNOW your user has. Here's as I see it.

PS3: A ps3 controller.
360: A 360 controller, and headset.
Wii: Wiimote and Nunchuke.

Selling games that aren't as playable without extra equipment makes no business sense. And besides, I'll still be limited by the fact the game was made for the keyboard.

As for the game's I listed? I'll now give why I wouldn't want to play them on PC.

Mario 1: Movement controls simply not up to standard. Two keyboard buttons can serve as A and B adequately.

monster hunter 3: Awful movement, making dodging attacks (A VERY fundamental aspect of the game) awkward. Comboing attacks would become a real pain. As would special attacks. There's a reason why there's only one PC monster Hunter game. Oh, and it's better on 360.

deathsmiles: A shmup. W-a-s-d doesn't give NEARLY enough accurate movement for this game. Especially given the bullet hell aspects.

dragon quest 9: JRPG. Very rarely transfer over to PC well.

what did I do to deserve this, my lord: Would have to be lobotomized and RUINED in order to be profitable on PC. AKA: Dumbed down.

disgaea 4: The gameplay would have to be fundamentally changed to be adequately playable with the keyboard.

kirby superstar: I've tried to play this on keyboard.

It.
Is.
ABSOLUTELY.
AWFUL.
It's a platformer. One of several genres (including fight games and shmup's) that will never have a serious or even noteworthy presence on PC.

final fantasy 5: JRPG. Next.

berzerk: I just wanted to mention berzerk. It's just a great game overall.

Also, strictly speaking I don't NEED a PC. The only thing I use my PC for is Minecraft (Which I won't even be playing on PC for long.)

Jokes on you. WASD keys work really well if you gave them as much consideration as D-pad. Think about it, three fingers of control vs just your thumb. Oh and D-pads aren't pressure sensitive either, so what?

"Selling games that aren't as playable without extra equipment makes no business sense."

Uuuuh, but everyone does that ALL the time: lightguns, Move, Kinect, fighting games with arcade stick, driving games with wheel.

Unfortunately they won't support the most useful peripherals, a humble keyboard and mouse for all the many many shooters that would benefit so much from that. Do you really think one vanilla controller is good enough for all the many many varieties of games? That's a compromise.

"platformer... and fight games and shmup's will never have a serious or even noteworthy presence on PC"

Hmm, wut? 2D platformers on PC:
-Abuse
-Terraria
-Capsized
-Braid (90% metascore for PC version)
-Super Meat Boy (Originated on PC as free game)
-And Yet It moves

Fighting games:
-Zeno Clash
-Klassic Mortal Kombat series
-Street Fighter series
-

You've got me on bullet-hell Shm'ups but how popular is that rather narrow part of top-down shooters? PC does have:
-Alien Swarm
-Alien Breed series
-Anomaly: Warzone earth
-Crusade series

Honestly I don't know enough about this genre. I know of several more but can't remember their names. Anyway LOADS of top-down shooters on PC, I know Alien Breed isn't the only one.

Why would a game like "What did I deserve... Badman" have to be dumbed down for PC? Of ALL platforms, it is the platform with the most user complaints that the games are too simplified and they want more depth/complexity. And to be profitable it would only have to make more than it cost to have a small team port it, porting a game like that to PC would be pittance. Hell you wouldn't even have to port it, just wrap it in a PSP emulator.

Is it really a surprise that Jrpg's are poorly supported on PC? That's not PC's fault, that is the Japanese developers bias towards the Japanese gaming market where PC is woefully under-represented. There is no reason these games cannot be enjoyable on PC. The JRPGs that are ported to PC do very well.

Never said PC had EVERYTHING. Just that is has enough that you'd be woe to dismiss so much of it.

You do need a PC... or else you couldn't even post in this forum to say you don't need a PC. (And yes, a Mac is a type of PC to spite what those obnoxious ads say).

To arbitrarily refuse to use it for gaming when it is so capable, is just petty.

PS: You'd be crazy to give up on Minecraft for 360 version, it is being lobotomised in online features to conform with XBL rules and regulations. The game isn't even being ported by Mojang, it's just an effort to stop all the XBLA Minecraft imitators. Abandoning the PC version for 360 would be pure fanboy favouritism.

 

[Chibz]

SNIP

I often don't post on these forums using a PC. Not even joking. It's actually rather rare to see me post USING my PC. Hell, I even browse youtube without my PC. Even get better sound quality that way...

Street Fighter IV on PC is a joke. Braid? It's also a joke. And harmed by keyboard controls.

Mortal Kombat 2 & 3 on PC were just butchered, version of a mediocre 90's arcade fighting game.

The only thing I see the PC as having in its favour are ... RTS'. A genre I don't touch anyways.

Also... Zeno... WHAAAAAAAT? *Checks wikipedia* Yeah. Not a noteworthy fighting game.

Also, Minecraft on 360. It's more an open admission: My 360 is overall more powerful than my PC.

 

[Treblaine]

Also... Zeno... WHAAAAAAAT? *Checks wikipedia* Yeah. Not a noteworthy fighting game.

Well you sure gave that game a chance (/sarc)

You know I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first but now claim you don't even use your PC for web-browsing. Yeah, you aren't being reasonable.

 

[Chibz]

Well you sure gave that game a chance (/sarc)

You know I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first but now claim you don't even use your PC for web-browsing. Yeah, you aren't being reasonable.

On further inspection, it isn't even a fighting game. It's a BRAWLER, you silly man. It looks like passable, maybe even GOOD brawler. Is it on XBLA? *Checks* YES! I might buy it. Trial time.

How's it unreasonable to say I don't usually browse the forums on the PC? Is my spelling/grammar bad?

 

[Treblaine]

Well you sure gave that game a chance (/sarc)

You know I gave you the benefit of the doubt at first but now claim you don't even use your PC for web-browsing. Yeah, you aren't being reasonable.

On further inspection, it isn't even a fighting game. It's a BRAWLER, you silly man. It looks like passable, maybe even GOOD brawler. Is it on XBLA? *Checks* YES! I might buy it. Trial time.

How's it unreasonable to say I don't usually browse the forums on the PC? Is my spelling/grammar bad?

It's unreasonable because you dismiss it after just looking at the Wikipedia page. You are now making pedantic distinctions about whether a game entirely about fighting is actually a fighting game. Ridiculous. If you meant "2D plane classic fighter" then say that. As you stated PC has no stake in a very broad genre.

You really do seem to just be blatantly hating on PC. First you dismiss Zeno Clash as a PC game as "not noteworthy" till you realise it is also on 360, then it is suddenly worth a try. FYI: it was a compromised port.

Blatant hypocrisy.

"Street Fighter IV on PC is a joke. Braid? It's also a joke."

That's an unreasonable dismissal. It is without reason. There is no good reason to call Braid on PC "a joke".

What the heck do you "usually" browse the web on? A PS3? An iPad? And why not today? I'm really curious if there is ANY POSSIBLE REASON you'd choose that over a proper PC based web-browser like Chrome or Firefox. Because from what I've heard from you already you seem to have an unwavering bias against PC in almost all aspect to the point of going for any alternative no matter how limited.

 

[Chibz]

What the heck do you "usually" browse the web on? A PS3? An iPad? And why not today? I'm really curious if there is ANY POSSIBLE REASON you'd choose that over a proper PC based web-browser like Chrome or Firefox. Because from what I've heard from you already you seem to have an unwavering bias against PC in almost all aspect to the point of going for any alternative no matter how limited.

Today? My TV is unavailable. The only reason I don't use my computer most of the time is because... Why turn on a different system, when the system I'm currently using can do the same job just as well?

I played Braid, by the way. It's nothing special. If you'd check my Steam, I have it on there. Braid is a shallow, gimmicky game with MANY instances of bad game design. Even the platforming is awkward at best, flat out awful at worse. How this game got so popular is well beyond me. If I want to play a pretentious "Art Game" I'll hit up newgrounds.

"Compromised port"? Seemed pretty awesome to me, when FoC played it. He had a great time.

And no. My computer can't run it. At all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_game

Educate yourself on fighting games.

Here's a brawler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brawler

Both are genres I traditionally enjoy. It also has FPS elements but almost no fighting game elements. If I were you, I'd learn what I was talking about as to not appear foolish in the future.

 

[Serenityrade]

Were I either of you, I wouldn't strawman the other's arguments and insult them. However, I'm not, so feel free to continue replying to one another in such a way as to saturate each sentence with negative adjectives until they seem to comprise the entirety of that which you write.

Despite having no personal coin on the subject of this argument, the two of you act in a manner conformant to the same idiosyncratic and barely meaning-filled palavers that occur whenever two people who feel absolutely compelled to state their own opinions contradictory to those of another collide with each other.

Anyway, a brawler is a type of fighting game. No, I mean that seriously. Brawling is a synonym of fighting. Hence, a 'brawler' is a type of 'fighting' game, much like 'wrestling' comprises various codes of wrestling, such as WWE, WWF, WTF, etc.

Phrases like 'blatant hypocrisy', re-iterating the same phrase multiple times, quote mining the person you are talking to and generally insulting their power of choice and their ability to decide for themselves makes you as bad as your rather unpleasant opponent, Treblaine.

He may be making ridiculous arguments about the laudable inferiority of computer architecture over computer architecture in a smaller box purely on the basis of controls compatible with the computer architecture in a larger box, but at least he did not say you were utterly and without prejudice wrong.

He/she merely didn't try very hard.

 

[Griffolion]

How can you make a very bold, sweeping statement, when it was established quite early on in this thread that those PC gamers who are vocal about how much better they are than console gamers are a very loud minority?

Hence the "those pc gamers" rather than just "pc gamers".

Ah right, I must have misinterpreted the tone of 'those'.

OT: I have an example of a PC game that could work equally well, if not better on console: Terraria.

 

[Treblaine]

What the heck do you "usually" browse the web on? A PS3? An iPad? And why not today? I'm really curious if there is ANY POSSIBLE REASON you'd choose that over a proper PC based web-browser like Chrome or Firefox. Because from what I've heard from you already you seem to have an unwavering bias against PC in almost all aspect to the point of going for any alternative no matter how limited.

Today? My TV is unavailable. The only reason I don't use my computer most of the time is because... Why turn on a different system, when the system I'm currently using can do the same job just as well?

I played Braid, by the way. It's nothing special. If you'd check my Steam, I have it on there. Braid is a shallow, gimmicky game with MANY instances of bad game design. Even the platforming is awkward at best, flat out awful at worse. How this game got so popular is well beyond me. If I want to play a pretentious "Art Game" I'll hit up newgrounds.

"Compromised port"? Seemed pretty awesome to me, when FoC played it. He had a great time.

And no. My computer can't run it. At all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_game

Educate yourself on fighting games.

Here's a brawler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brawler

Both are genres I traditionally enjoy. It also has FPS elements but almost no fighting game elements. If I were you, I'd learn what I was talking about as to not appear foolish in the future.

You are entitled to your opinion on Braid as you have actually expressed it as your opinion though in the most condescending way.

But you know what annoys me? For titles like Zeno Clash you don't just say "it isn't relevant to me because I don't have a powerful PC", that is reasonable. Instead you broadly belittle games as "not noteworthy" under the impression it was PC exclusive.

What is your deal with PCs? Did a PC crash and destroy your life's work?

Phrases like 'blatant hypocrisy', re-iterating the same phrase multiple times, quote mining the person you are talking to and generally insulting their power of choice and their ability to decide for themselves makes you as bad as your rather unpleasant opponent, Treblaine.

He may be making ridiculous arguments about the laudable inferiority of computer architecture over computer architecture in a smaller box purely on the basis of controls compatible with the computer architecture in a larger box, but at least he did not say you were utterly and without prejudice wrong.

Nope. He was being a hypocrite and I called him out on it.

If Chibz doesn't like being talked to in a belittling tone, then Chibz should not do be belittling.

Chibz has been using so many shallow arguments to attack PC, that are complete double standards, like:
-PC games can't depend on non-standard controllers (even though console games do)
-Ignores literally 2/3rds all my counter examples, focusing on just a few to belittle with conjecture
-Stating such a bias against PC to abandon Minecraft as soon a the 360 port is out his "reason" is 360's more powerful graphics... FOR MINECRAFT!?!?!

 

[Chibz]

SNIP

If you're going to claim that the PC has good fighting games, how about listing some fighting
games?

Zeno Clash isn't relevant as a fighting game because it is NOT A FIGHTING GAME. That's like saying "There are lots of good Ford cars. Like the Ford Camry". The hilarious thing is that I could probably argue the point better than YOU are.

Also, most games DON'T use non-guaranteed equipment anymore. The only games, really, are guitar hero/rock band/DJ Hero. But those come WITH their controller. Which, of course, makes them more expensive.

AGAIN.
Guaranteed Equipment:
Wii: Wiimote & Nunchuke
360: 360 Controller & headset
PS3: PS3 controller
PC: Keyboard & Mouse

Almost every game, without fail, will be compatible with the minimum, simplest equipment the user is guaranteed to have. You will NEVER find a physical wii title that requires a classic controller (pro) to play. Sure the Kinect & Move are non-guaranteed equipment but that's why nobody is making games for them.

I'm so belittling about Braid because I genuinely dislike it. I treat things I dislike with contempt. I do not apologize for this.

PC games can't really depend on non-standard controls. Because that would depend on the consumer rushing out and buying them. Which reduces the number of consumers substantially.

In a niche market, you cannot afford to alienate consumers. In a niche market you cannot afford the extra costs to make the game game pad compatible to appease a very small group of extra people. It's basic business-sense.

As for Minecraft, believe it or not but my PC actually encounters ... problems trying to run it.

Anyway, a brawler is a type of fighting game.

No. They aren't. Brawlers are fighting games in the same way that FPS' are Shoot 'em ups. The game listed (Zeno Clash) is not a fighting game. It's provably not a fighting game.

 

[Treblaine]

Why not use a gamepad? Because of a very basic concept. Guaranteed equipment. AKA: What you automatically KNOW your user has.
Selling games that aren't as playable without extra equipment makes no business sense. And besides, I'll still be limited by the fact the game was made for the keyboard.

Selling games that aren't as playable without extra equipment makes no business sense.

aren't AS playable without extra equipment

Almost every (console) game, without fail, will be compatible with the minimum, simplest equipment the user is guaranteed to have. You will NEVER find a physical wii title that requires a classic controller (pro) to play.

You aren't staying on topic.

We started talking about Gamepad as a slightly-better option available on PC if you really want it, even though K+M are still great. Just like you can use a driving wheel with driving games if you want the more adapted control, not that the game is utterly dependant on the non-standard controls.

Now you are making the straw man argument of non-existent case of a PC games REQUIRING a non-standard peripheral like a gamepad? Stop relying on extremist fallacies to prove your position.

And lets look at quite how many examples you hand-wave away of when a CONSOLE game requires extra hardware:
-Move Games
-Kinect games
-Music games

Others you missed:
-Wii Motion Plus = NOT standard and IS required
-Dual Shock 3 = all the PS3 games that have rumble as integral feature
-Dual Shock 1 = Many PS1 games required dual thumbsticks yet were still succesful
-N64 expansion pack
-Light gun games = Right since 1985
-The Wii nuchchuck itself was not bundled as standard with all Wii consoles (UK at least)



"You will NEVER find a physical wii title that requires a classic controller (pro) to play"

Yet Red Steel 2 and soon Skyward Sword require Motion Plus...

And Classic-controller is a very good example of my initial point of "Better alternat controller" because Monster Hunter Tri plays much better with a gamepad than Wii-mote + nunchuck.

I guess it's another example of your PC-hating double standards, what is outrageous on PC is totally forgiveable and ignored on Wii.

"Sure the Kinect & Move are non-guaranteed equipment but that's why nobody is making games for them."

Bioshock Infinite: Move controls
Minecraft on 360: Kinect controls

Any more outrageous false statement you want to make for me to disprove?

Post Script:

Spoiler

Spoiler: Zeno Clash is...

...a fighting game

 

[Chibz]

SNIP

Red Steel 2: Comes bundled with Wii Motion Plus. It's like... one of three games that require it. And ALL OF THEM COME WITH IT.

Platformers + M&K = trash. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy.

Bioshock Infinite: Playstation move COMPATIBLE. The overall best controls are with a classic controller.

Minecraft on 360: Kinect COMPATIBLE. 360 controller is likely to be the better controller.

My god, do you even LOOK AT NEWS? Wait... The post script...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_game

If you fail to read that link, I'm going to treat you as simply wasting my time and ignore you.

In fact, so there's no excuse...

These characters tend to be of equal power and fight matches consisting of several rounds, which take place in an arena.

The genre is related to but distinct from beat 'em ups, which involve large numbers of antagonists.

Beat'em up is another name for a BRAWLER.

 

[Treblaine]

SNIP

Red Steel 2: Comes bundled with Wii Motion Plus. It's like... one of three games that require it. And ALL OF THEM COME WITH IT.
Platformers + M&K = trash. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy.
Bioshock Infinite: Playstation move COMPATIBLE. The overall best controls are with a classic controller.
Minecraft on 360: Kinect COMPATIBLE. 360 controller is likely to be the better controller.
My god, do you even LOOK AT NEWS? Wait... The post script...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_game
If you fail to read that link, I'm going to treat you as simply wasting my time and ignore you.
In fact, so there's no excuse...

These characters tend to be of equal power and fight matches consisting of several rounds, which take place in an arena.

The genre is related to but distinct from beat 'em ups, which involve large numbers of antagonists.

Beat'em up is another name for a BRAWLER.

"do you even LOOK AT NEWS?" *Cites wikipedia*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_Clash

Very first line calls it a Fighting Game, even links to the wiki-article on Fighting Games. Conclusion: wikipedia articles are only as good as the REPUTABLE sources they cite. Reputable sources like game editor-controlled review sites:

Eurogamer's Zeno Clash Review: "As it is, Zeno Clash remains a fantastically involving and solid fighting game..." [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/zeno-clash-review?page=2]

These are broad terms that are not absolute. The semantics of one-vs-one or one-vs-many fight games is purely pedantic on the issue of your allegation:

"genres including fight games... will never have a serious or even noteworthy presence on PC."

...

"Red Steel 2: Comes bundled with Wii Motion Plus."

Not any of the copies I've found in the UK. And when did bundles ever become a cop-out? They still cost more than game-alone as you pointed out with music games requiring plastic guitars. There is no consistency of thought with you.

"Platformers + M&K = trash."

One word: Abuse [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_(video_game)]

Stop and consider that you just aren't giving PC controls a chance, use them enough to get over the initial unfamiliarity that would sap ability. Anyone would be inherently biased towards d-pad as their muscle memory just knows how to use it without thinking.

What is WASD's actual problem compared to D-pad other than "It's different, I haet it!"?

"Bioshock Infinite: Playstation move COMPATIBLE. The overall best controls are with a classic controller."

No, the best controls are mouse and keyboard. They tested this, Gamepad gamers vs M&K gamers, both the most experienced with each. Team gamepad got annihilated by M&K users. Anyway, my point was they are making games for Move.

BTW, isn't the "overall best controller" for the likes of Monster hunter Tri the classic-controller-pro? Sold separately or bundled at a higher price that's is in your own words "not a good business strategy" yet Monster Hunter Tri was made with that controller in mind.

you also again missed:
-Dual Shock 3 = all the PS3 games that have rumble as integral feature
-Dual Shock 1 = Many PS1 games required dual thumbsticks yet were still succesful
-N64 expansion pack
-Light gun games = Right since 1985
-The Wii nuchchuck itself was not bundled as standard with all Wii consoles (UK at least)

Bottom line: nothing wrong with using a gamepad on PC. Nor any platform using any non-standard controller. It is not business suicide, it is done all the time and applies equally to PC as consoles.

Why can't you accept that? After all these examples I have given and even examples you yourself have given.

 

[Chibz]

Um... Abuse is a Run 'n' gun. A subgenre of Shoot 'em up! I've played Abuse. It's certainly no contra.

The primary problem with lightguns from the 80's is that there were so few games that actually used them. Peripherals like this are consistently less than useful. I can count two or three games that used the lightgun for the NES. Two games that "used" ROB. Three that used the super scope. Why? It's NOT smart use of money to make games that REQUIRE a peripheral for basic functionality.

I'd take platformers/etc on the PC more seriously if they weren't designed with the keyboard in mind.

As for the genre of zeno clash? They use brawler (read as: Beat 'em up) and Fighting game interchangeably. They are vastly different genres.

Beat 'em up:

Spoiler

Fighting game:

Spoiler

Again?

Beat 'em up:

Spoiler

Fighting game:

Spoiler: Heaven or Hell? Let's rock!

Either you've got nothing to contribute simply because you know little (or NOTHING) about the basics of game genres... Or you're deliberately leading me along. In either case, polite discussion with you is impossible. Welcome to ignore, any further communications will be treated as harassment. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to watch a friend play NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams

 

[Treblaine]

Um... Abuse is a Run 'n' gun. A subgenre of Shoot 'em up! I've played Abuse. It's certainly no contra.

The primary problem with lightguns from the 80's is that there were so few games that actually used them. Peripherals like this are consistently less than useful. I can count two or three games that used the lightgun for the NES. Two games that "used" ROB. Three that used the super scope. Why? It's NOT smart use of money to make games that REQUIRE a peripheral for basic functionality.

I'd take platformers/etc on the PC more seriously if they weren't designed with the keyboard in mind.

...

Either you've got nothing to contribute simply because you know little (or NOTHING) about the basics of game genres... Or you're deliberately leading me along. In either case, polite discussion with you is impossible. Welcome to ignore, any further communications will be treated as harassment. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to watch a friend play NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams

So you are happy to foot the bill for so many extra controllers for Wii: Classic Controller Pro, Motion-Plus, Nunchuck, 2nd wii-mote (for any co-op games)... but refuse to even consider buying a gamepad for PC when it is suitable. That's shameful.

You can label whatever screenshots with whatever you like, If Eurogamer calls Zeno Clash a fighting game, it's reasonable to call it a fighting game. This is how the word definitions are determined, how they are used by professionals, like professional game critics. From the very wikipedia article you cite it admits, with sources, that "beat'em up" games have been described as "fighting games":
"the two terms may still be conflated." come with two sources:
http://www.next-gen.biz/features/e3-feature-fighting-games-focus
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/the-tao-of-beat-em-ups-article