A series of questions to those who want change in female game roles.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

That image is so oversexualised it's demeaning to the character and just reduces her to eye candy.

Explain the logic behind that, please.

If you don't understand by now after all these times I have explained in these threads over and over and over then tbh I can't be bothered anymore.

Women can be attractive without being ridiculously oversexualised. It's needless and it's demeaning because clearly the characters main reason is to be there to titillate men.

If a female politician turned up to a meeting in a mini skirt and bra top would she expect people to take her seriously? No. So why do you think women don't take these 'warriors' seriously.

See how the bottom woman still looks attractive but isn't stupidly out of place and oversexualised?

As for the last part Why do men NEED this stuff exactly? Why are you so upset that we want better female characters that haven't got their tits hanging out. WHY. Why so defensive of something that is so overtly sleazy and crap.

 

[ElPatron]

Women can be attractive without being ridiculously oversexualised. It's needless and it's demeaning because clearly the characters main reason is to be there to titillate men.

So the main reason we are here today is because women and men have been titillating themselves since... ever.


There is nothing amoral about sexualization, specially because it goes both ways.

If a female politician turned up to a meeting in a mini skirt and bra top would she expect people to take her seriously? No.

There are not many games with female politicians.

Why am I even saying this? I hate politicians, I take women in minikirts more seriously than pathological liars. Rather have someone who doesn't hide their identity and personal taste than someone who wears a classy suit to hide the fact that he/she is a legalized thief.

As for the last part Why do men NEED this stuff exactly? Why are you so upset that we want better female characters that haven't got their tits hanging out. WHY.

Your whole argument is a succession of fallacies. Not only it implies that there are no lesbian women, you're also trying to make everyone look bad.

So just because this dead horse has been pummeled to rotten goo and the fact that we are getting too upset over something that many consider an artistic medium (not to mention protected by the freedom of expression), we defend the lack of good female characters? Talk about implications.

That's either a gross over-analysis or just a plain irrational antagonistic attitude towards men. I give you the benefit of the doubt.

Why so defensive of something that is so overtly sleazy.

'Cause freedomz.

It's one of the best things we have. Better enjoy it before those politicians in their suits come and take them from us.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Yeah why don't you just be honest and admit that you want to keep things the way they are because they pander to you.

And good job completely twisting my point.

It would be nice to have female characters who are characters and not eye candy. Why won't male gamers let us have that is it so much of a slight?

Like it or not oversexualisation of female characters is a barrier to having good female characters in games. As those characters will always be defined by primarily their sexuality. So by defending that you don't want better female characters. Like I said check out A:TLA for decent female characters.

No I'm not implying that there are no lesbian women, but implying that they have lesbian women in mind is kind of stupid. Especially since most lesbian relationships in games are just there to pander to men and are kind of a joke.

If a female politician turned up to a meeting in a mini skirt and bra top would she expect people to take her seriously?

This politician was a porn star and continued to star in porn while elected in Italy and she was taken seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilona_Staller

"Staller continued to make hardcore pornographic films while a member of parliament. She is famous for delivering political speeches with one breast exposed"

Sort of puts a dent in your point.

Yeah I'm sure loads of people took her super seriously...*rolls eyes* 'While in office, and before the outset of the Gulf War she offered to have sex with Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in return for peace in the region' What a hero, such a role model...>_>

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

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Yeah I wonder why she got elected... -.-

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

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Yeah I wonder why she got elected... -.-

It says here she was "campaigning on a libertarian platform against nuclear energy and NATO membership, and for human rights".

Keep this up, it's making you look pretty silly.

She lost any legitimacy she had when she makes speeches with her tits hanging out. She just makes politics out as a joke.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

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Because it's inappropriate to the situation why do I even have to explain that.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Because it's inappropriate to the situation why do I even have to explain that.

It doesn't make her point less valid though.

Yeah but it undermines it like printing your CV in comic sans...

 

[ElPatron]

Yeah why don't you just be honest and admit that you want to keep things the way they are because they pander to you.

Why don't you stop lying (I'm sorry, but that's what you are doing) about me and about other Escapist members?

If you want to judge me, do so using things I have said about myself. If you're making up stuff about me just so that you can feel you are in the right, that's beyond an Ad Hominem fallacy - that's a lie. A fabrication.

I never claimed I wanted "to keep things the way they are".

And good job completely twisting my point.

I took everything at face value. If there's anyone looking beyond the literal meaning of a post it's you.

It would be nice to have female characters who are characters and not eye candy. Why won't male gamers let us have that is it so much of a slight?

You are antagonizing "male gamers", turning this into a useless gender war and for some reason you also decided to generalize "men" and make them the enemy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry

You have no evidence that "we" are doing the evil things you're saying "we" do. There is no conspiracy here.

No I'm not implying that there are no lesbian women, but implying that they have lesbian women in mind is kind of stupid. Especially since most lesbian relationships in game are just there to pander to men and are kind of a joke.

I don't remember that many games with lesbian relationships. Actually, I remember none because I don't play that kind of games. But that is completely unrelated to the argument, so it's a "Red Herring" fallacy.

Yeah I'm sure loads of people took her super seriously...*rolls eyes* 'While in office, and before the outset of the Gulf War she offered to have sex with Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein in return for peace in the region' What a hero, such a role model...>_>

>comfortable with her profession and sexuality
>got to politics despite her past and current occupation
>somehow not a role-model

Yeah, our only political role models should be the God-fearing old white people who have a straight marriage. Those are the ones we can trust!

Yeah but it undermines it like printing your CV in comic sans...

>sex should dictate the job you are able to get

The world will be a better place when people stop thinking like that. Specially because mohawks look awesome in people in suits, and I want to show up like that in a job interview.

And no one wants naked men running about, crotch jiggle physics or Twilight don't be silly.

This is what DOA beach volleyball looks like to straight female gamers

I don't really have anything to add to the main discussion, but I have to address this video you posted.

Seriously, I am not sure that this made your point. As a straight male gamer... I thought that was the most laugh out loud funny shit I had seen in days.

I would totally play that game for shits and giggles: with friends, male or female.

Anyway, this is basically a thank you for posting that: I lol'd

+1 on this one.

If the purpose was to alienate me or simply disgust me, then it was a massive fail because it was one of the most awesome and entertaining things I ever saw.

I wish DoA BV was this fun.

 

[Dimitriov]

And no one wants naked men running about, crotch jiggle physics or Twilight don't be silly.

This is what DOA beach volleyball looks like to straight female gamers

I don't really have anything to add to the main discussion, but I have to address this video you posted.

Seriously, I am not sure that this made your point. As a straight male gamer... I thought that was the most laugh out loud funny shit I had seen in days.

I would totally play that game for shits and giggles: with friends, male or female.

Anyway, this is basically a thank you for posting that: I lol'd

Clearly it didn't if she was elected. Sounds like you need to stop judging people on their appearance.

Are you kidding?! Yeah, because the average voter totally makes their decisions based on policy and platforms... oh no wait the average voter in most countries probably doesn't know what a policy or platform is.

For example: how many of my neighbours to the south are going to vote Republican this fall? How many do you suppose have actually read the Republican platform? I have read some of it and it basically says "Make America awesome again! Fix the economy by lowering taxes on the rich!"(because that has definitely either not been tried, or it has been tried and it totally worked... /sarcasm)... and of course "God bless America!" (seriously, I counted 30 mentions of God or Jesus in it... nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it is interesting).

Okay, this kind of went off on a tangential rant... the point is voting tends to be based on image and perception. It really is a big popularity contest in most respects.

 

[Xanadu84]

Here is the cycle of life for criticism of womens roles.

1) Person makes some female character with a certain trait, usually a trait that has a sexualized appeal to the male player base. This may be low brow, but it's fine.

2) Other people realize that people love this low brow sex appeal. Slowly, almost every female character in gaming reflects this in some way. It's not always to the same extreme or in the same way, but the trend remains overpowering. There are exceptions, but the overall trend is incredibly apparent.

3) Concerned people catch on. They realize that gaming as a whole relies heavily on this broad and unrealistic stereotypes, and that gaming would be better if it had more rounded and realistic characters. There is an outcry for better female characters in, "Games"

4) Upon hearing this, every goddamn game company in the world salivates over the prospect of everyone else being more inclusive, allowing them to monopolize the use of a certain sexualized trait. They justify there own actions, say, "Yeah. The rest of you guys should really get on that" and tell themselves that if just they do it, then it's fine. Everyone thinks that its fine if just they do it.

5) Realizing that diffusion of responsibility makes it impossible to change "Games" at large, concerned people instead question individual games, holding individuals responsible for a specific instance, and for passing up the opportunity to provide decent female characters.

6) The accused rightfully point out that they alone are not the cause of the problem, and that there are plenty of games that do have decent female characters. They then name a bunch of games where they overlook the dark side of those female characters, and a bunch of games that provide a reasonable view of women. There are a number of examples because there are a huge number of games out there, which makes reasonable female characters appear ubiquitous, but in reality, it is a tiny percentage of the whole. And being a part of the community you DO perceive the whole.

7) The concerned people realize that blaming the individual is not accurate, and blaming the group is fruitless. They get mocked for attempting to solve a problem where the impossibility of addressing that problem is mistaken for the problem not existing.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

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Muscle Marsh is pretty hilarious, a let play of it was the funniest shit I've seen.

snip

All I see is you deflecting arguments by talking about how I have said it rather than what I have said.

Why don't you actually address my points rather than hide behind accusations and semantics. As for misandry...no I think it's pretty accurate to say the majority of gamers who have a knee jerk defensive reaction to having oversexualisation taken away are male. I don't think that's unfair.

snip
+1 on this one.

If the purpose was to alienate me or simply disgust me, then it was a massive fail because it was one of the most awesome and entertaining things I ever saw.

I wish DoA BV was this fun.

It wasn't it was just to show how bloody stupid oversexualisation looks to women sometimes.

 

[ElPatron]

7) The concerned people realize that blaming the individual is not accurate, and blaming the group is fruitless. They get mocked for attempting to solve a problem where the impossibility of addressing that problem is mistaken for the problem not existing.

I don't think that the problem is impossible to address. I just think that some of the arguments simply do not make sense when we should just try to justify the existence of better/deeper characters in general.

All I see is you deflecting arguments by talking about how I have said it rather than what I have said.

Why don't you actually address my points rather than hide behind accusations and semantics.

Accusations? I'm sorry, but I merely stated my opinions on your accusations and generalizations.

Semantics? Logical fallacies get you nowhere. That's why they are called "fallacies". They are not supposed to help you, they undermine the potential of your arguments.

When I used the word misandry I wasn't criticizing you for "assuming" that we are male. I used it because you have convince yourself that male gamers *want* poor female characterization and have started a conspiracy to eliminate good female characters. It's an irrational assumption that everyone has a certain opinion because they are men, and that any man that dares to disagree with you wants oversexualization.

gamers who have a knee jerk defensive reaction to having oversexualisation taken away

I know it's almost 30min long but please watch the video.

I'm not defending "oversexualization in games", I am defending 1. "freedom of expression" and the idea that 2. "sexualization isn't necessarily bad or demeaning"

tracing false parallels ("Men have unrealistic proportions too!")

That is not a false parallel. Men are heavily sexualized in any medium. The subtle difference is that physical attributes are a mean of making an impression on other candidates - other men - and not so much on women. Physical attributes alone do not guarantee the "stability" women are hardwired to find in their possible mates, even though many people don't realize that.

 

[Ryotknife]

guys do have much more physical varience in body types, but significantly fewer personality/mental varience than female characters. Female characters have an extremely broad personality spectrum....distilled into a hour glass figure (although that is slowly changing for the better).

Men on the other hand are pigeonholed into a few personality types with a broad range of body types (and it is getting WORSE).

better writers would solve many problems in the industry, gender issues included.

The other thing is it is very HARD to objectify men visually, you pretty much have to go to an extreme. If a female character shows her legs, breast, butt, vagina, or tummy she is considered objectified. Only sure fire way for a guy to be considered objectified is for him to either show or focus on his penis, even showing his butt is not always a closed case for objectification.