A series of questions to those who want change in female game roles.

[Fappy]

However, it's not just about having a reasonable ratio of vaginas to penises. I have over 700 hours logged in TF2, and there is not a single playable female character in that game.

The pyro is a female. Surely with 700 hours you'd know that about him?

It's a conspiracy! I hope they never definitively answer that question.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

the first few answers on this thread just basically say to me 'video game portrayals of women pander to me so there is no problem'

It's kind of sad.

There is no point in even entertaining this discussion as it will just end up in a massive circular argument of denial and me repeating myself over and over for guys who just don't get it.

Fappy and Phasmal have posted good things so go read theirs. Also watch this episode of Moviebob

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

Currently I'm annoyed about Resi 6 being a brodude sausage fest and the only female character is an unlock with a super sexy voice. Especially since the earlier games are so gender neutral.

Oh and if you want good female characters go and watch Avatar the last airbender and the legend of korra they are female characters who don't have 'female' as their central feature they are just characters. That is what we want.

And no one wants naked men running about, crotch jiggle physics or Twilight don't be silly.

This is what DOA beach volleyball looks like to straight female gamers

 

[Mr F.]

*SNIP*
And remember, examples make the world go round, and people support an opinion.

How are they over sexual?
Their sexual characteristics are being played up as part of the character design. Think boob plates, Shepeards Butt Plate, things like that. "Over" would simply be personal taste, I personally do not have that much of an issue with this, but I think it has its place.

And if so, what would be sensible/fair to put in a video game?
Well, I am a sucker for gritty realism. Compare and contrast how male and female combat uniforms look in the American military (Using them as an easy example). I assume this is a follow up for the above question? Female uniforms are not sexualised, they are just exactly what they need to be to get the job done. As some have pointed out "Boob Plates" would actually be incredibly dangerous in combat as they direct all blows inwards and towards vital organs instead of outwards and away.

Also if we do not change it, what harm will be done?
Any harm done is indirect and impossible to prove. So I should say pass. But personally? The harm done, in my eyes, is the objectification of women. Which is bad. Exagerating sexual stuff does objectify and I believe, despite their being no conclusive research on this area as it is fucking hard to do any conclusive research based on the societal affects of ANYTHING due to how varied society is, that objectification in computer games affects how we see things in society, to a greater or lesser dergree, and this in some way informs our relationships with others and how we see things in a greater, societal context (Good luck finding a flaw in that argument, I covered all of my bases and I said nothing absolute. This was not directed at you, OP, just whoever may or may not read this.

Isn't changing a structure to favor a groups needs no different then censorship?
You're right. Its censorship. It happens. Keeping child pornography out of games is also censorship. Oh look, false equivalence. The point is people, like myself, find this tasteless and believe that it should be changed. I think this change should be limited to mainstream games, I have nothing wrong with Dead or Alive, I have plenty wrong with Boob Plates in mainstream games.

Isn't it self defeating for women to say that some women in games that do not wear the same amount of clothing as them are oversexual--since- some women prefer to wear very revealing clothing? Is that not singling them out, to favor your own likes and dislikes?

False. Equivalence. Same logic is used to call the Occupy lot hypocrites. "Isn't it hypocritical that they are complaining about the inherrent corruption within the banking system and how detrimental it is for the entire world whilst they are occasionally seen buying coffee?"


Just skip to Hislops argument.

Regardless, the same logic applies. Seriously. You can be against the depiction of women in games and still wear "Sexy" clothing.

To quote Hislop from what I just linked "Its so obvious I just cannot be bothered"

Isn't asking creators to go by a criteria that a group finds except able limiting their creativity?
Well, Yes, but EVERYTHING about society limits their creativity. Read the above child porn point.

And if you believe women are being victimized in video games, don't you believe that by extension men are too due to over dramatic muscle tone, beautiful female features, and gruff appearances/tough guy personalities?
False equivalence. Although there is some argument that the negative stereotypes of men are damaging, there is a stronger argument that the negative stereotypes of women are damaging. Also, you just state that men have beautiful female features. Heh.

So three false equivalences contained within your questions. I dunno if they were your views or if you are just posting the views of others in question form.

So... I dunno. I gave examples of how it should be handled, at the start, then just started tearing into the questions. Sorry, I guess.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

However, it's not just about having a reasonable ratio of vaginas to penises. I have over 700 hours logged in TF2, and there is not a single playable female character in that game.

a
The pyro is female. Surely with 700 hours you'd know that about him?

No he's not... at the very least its genderless, since there has been no official statement on it and theories swing both ways.

Also, going back to your Alyx Vance remark in your previous comment, I wouldn't jump too far with the praise. She is a carefully crafted character who's entire role is to fawn over Gordon, worship him, aid him without question and stand aside when Gordon is at work. She also has no baggage, so to speak, that is relative to any of the events in the story... this might change in Ep.3, but as it stands, Alyx is a pretty flat character. This guy explains it well (skip to 4:10 for my point):

Disclaimer: The guy makes a decent point against Alyx, but I don't agree with every point he makes. I agree with him that she gets too much praise for what she is.
Question: How does one timestamp specific parts of vids?

Yeah Alyx is certainly an inoffensive character but that doesn't mean she is a good or strong character.

People really need to stop giving Alyx so much credit. If she makes it into a list of "strong female characters" then that list sets a low bar for inclusion.

 

[ElPatron]

the first few answers on this thread just basically say to me 'video game portrayals of women pander to me so there is no problem'

First three replies:

"OT: I can't understand why people are so butthurt about it, everytime I play a videogame that shows the "bad side" of women never makes me hate/ like them less."


"Honestly people take this stuff way too seriously, I mean look up 'game' in the dictionary: "An amusement or pastime."

Video games are supposed to be about enjoying yourself and having fun, not giving a shit about and having a cry over sexism. I'm not saying that sexism isn't an issue but that it shouldn't be a relevant factor in video games. If you want video games to be respected as and treated as an art form then why can't you just respect the artists rendition? If you are offended by it just don't play the game. Who are you to pick up a game developers work and say "fuck you this is shit because the females in your creation don't wear enough clothes, change it now.""



"There need be no solution. Can we just settle down and enjoy some video games already?

I think gamers have made enough of a stink about this all over the internet that these develoers are either working on fixing it, or dont give a fuck. Either way, fixing gender role issues takes time, and we'll have to deal with stupid stuff for awhile yet."


"video game portrayals of women pander to me so there is no problem"

No. That's not what they wrote. That's not what they implied. You're factually wrong.

Also, going back to your Alyx Vance remark in your previous comment, I wouldn't jump too far with the praise. She is a carefully crafted character who's entire role is to fawn over Gordon, worship him, aid him without question and stand aside when Gordon is at work.

Gordon Freeman is a deity, a savior, a messiah in the eyes of other characters. It is not exclusive to Alyx.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

It's a simple solution really. Hire more female writers/male writers who can actually write female characters. Also, cut back on the sex appeal in games that don't need it. Easys.

Okay. But what is wrong with the writing of female characters? What makes their characters erroneous? Can you give some examples? Also can you give an example of a female writer who has created a popular female character in a game?

Lara Croft has two personality characteristics:

Flirtatious: She makes innuendo laden statements in a tone that would embarrass Eva Angelina.

Murderous: She kills everything in a ten mile radius.

She has a couple of physical characteristics:

Breasts: Large
Buttocks: Large
Legs: Big thighs tapering to thin ankles and feet

Now let's try and find a male character in gaming who has a similarly limited set of characteristics. How about Kratos

Murderous: He murders everything ever.
Regretful: Having been tricked into murdering his family and forced into becoming a psychopath.

Huh, looks like Kratos, one of the flattest most two-dimensional characters in videogaming, already has a better personality as portrayed through nothing but the game than Lara Croft, often held up as one of the best female characters.

And this is coming from one of the biggest LC fans ever.

Bayonetta is a badly written woman, Alyx Vance is a load, Samus Aran doesn't actually have a character (unless you count Metroid Other M, in which case she's a whiny useless lump who folds at the first sight of a man), Mona Sax goes from badass to damsel in distress at the sight of a man, most of the women of Final Fantasy are beyond useless and in cutscenes go from being super-strong fighters to being taken out by moogles because a man wasn't there to save them.

I could go on. There's also the fact that the list of female protagonists in videogames is maybe two dozen if you stretch the definition of protagonist to its absolute limits, vs every other game in existence for male protagonists.

Here's how to write a good female character in any medium. Go and talk to a woman. See how they talk? See how they view the world? See how it's not particularly different to any man you could meet? Alrighty then.

As for appearances. Yes, men are created in an equally fantasised physical way in games, but at least they have better personalities, even the flat characters, than women, whose personality in games can most often be summed up as 'has breasts and knows it' or 'is useless without a man.'

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

No. That's not what they wrote. That's not what they implied. You're factually wrong.[/b]

Yes they did 'imply' it which is why I said 'basically say to me' :|...They are saying there is nothing wrong when there IS SOMETHING WRONG.

 

[hermes]

You want to have decent female characters? The answer is pretty simple: Make characters whose characteristics are defined more than for his/her sex and the stereotypes. When you look at a picture of the character design, and the only adjectives you can think of are: sexy, skimpy dress, disproportionate, slutty, etc... you are doing it wrong.

Not that characters like that don't have a place in the game pantheon, but not all the examples have to be like that...

 

[ElPatron]

Yes they did 'imply' it....which is why I said 'basically say to me' :|

You have literally zero evidence they have any vested interest on the "portrayal of women".

So you criticize me for pedantry, but you're scrutinizing others' posts to find hidden meanings? Stay classy.

You want to have decent female characters? The answer is pretty simple: Make characters whose characteristics are defined more than for his/her sex and the stereotypes. When you look at a picture of the character design, and the only adjectives you can think of are: sexy, skimpy dress, disproportionate, slutty, etc... you are doing it wrong.

So people in real life with those characteristics aren't "real people" and have poor personalities? Or nobody can ever write a good "slutty" character?

Plus, if you are looking at character design I assume you're looking at it's physique, which doesn't give us much about personality. Talk about stereotypes.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Yes they did 'imply' it....which is why I said 'basically say to me' :|

You have literally zero evidence they have any vested interest on the "portrayal of women".

So you criticize me for pedantry, but you're scrutinizing others' posts to find hidden meanings? Stay classy.

If that's all you could find to comment on about my post then I really don't know what to say...

They were suggesting that there isn't a problem when there clearly is when there are characters who look like this.

WOW that outfit looks super fucking efficient to fight in doesn't it clearly there is zero problem here!

-.-

Plus, if you are looking at character design I assume you're looking at it's physique, which doesn't give us much about personality. Talk about stereotypes.

No he isn't he's talking about GOOD CHARACTERS. Characters who aren't just there to look nice for the boys they are actually characters in themselves. Sadly kids programs like Avatar:TLA are the best place to find decent female characters as they aren't swamped by their own sexuality.

 

[ElPatron]

They were suggesting that there isn't a problem when there clearly is when there are characters who look like this.

WOW that outfit looks super fucking efficient to fight in doesn't it clearly there is zero problem here!

-.-

Games are unrealistic? Stop the presses! Apparently I can fight in a war but come back to life five seconds later! That's a huge problem!

Is there a problem? I don't know, you tell me what's the problem with that image.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip.

Yeah it's just super that they are unrealistic to pander to men and women are allowed 0 power fantasies. Like I said you are okay with it because it panders to you.

That image is so oversexualised it's demeaning to the character and just reduces her to eye candy.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

However, it's not just about having a reasonable ratio of vaginas to penises. I have over 700 hours logged in TF2, and there is not a single playable female character in that game.

a
The pyro is female. Surely with 700 hours you'd know that about him?

No he's not... at the very least its genderless, since there has been no official statement on it and theories swing both ways.

Read my post again and again and again until you see it.

Also, going back to your Alyx Vance remark in your previous comment, I wouldn't jump too far with the praise. She is a carefully crafted character who's entire role is to fawn over Gordon, worship him, aid him without question and stand aside when Gordon is at work. She also has no baggage, so to speak, that is relative to any of the events in the story... this might change in Ep.3, but as it stands, Alyx is a pretty flat character. This guy explains it well (skip to 4:10 for my point):

Disclaimer: The guy makes a decent point against Alyx, but I don't agree with every point he makes. I agree with him that she gets too much praise for what she is.
Question: How does one timestamp specific parts of vids?

Yeah Alyx is certainly an inoffensive character but that doesn't mean she is a good or strong character.

People really need to stop giving Alyx so much credit. If she makes it into a list of "strong female characters" then that list sets a low bar for inclusion.

So pretty much no matter what a female character does, she is shit? Got it.

Pretty much everyone fawns over Gordon and treats him like a god, regardless of gender.

Like I said in my previous post, every female character is criticised. If they aren't perfectly characterised (which no one is) then it's seen as some kind of sexist remark and an attack on women. See my previous comment about tuning out these kinds of voices.

Right, I see it.

Don't get all defensive or you'll miss the point. Its not that she's a sexist character (holy crap am I tired of the shoot first mentality on here). She isn't, she has a character that isn't about tits and ass. Her role has a dynamic that isn't seen all too commonly in video games.

But she isn't a great character OR a strong female role. She is second fiddle to Gordon (fancy that, an NPC who isn't as important as the PC). That position she fills makes her incapable of being a strong character, since she can't (or at least hasn't) done anything to change the flow of events. Her role is so vacant when it comes to the actual plot. Breen is a good character, but his role as antagonist makes it easier for him to affect the plot of the first game.

She tags along with you, shoots some stuff, points at other things and waits for you to finish farting around before following you onwards or dumping a little exposition. She is a bog standard NPC... as you said, like everyone else in Half Life. Again, she is an inoffensive character. READ: NOT SEXIST. But she isn't a good or strong character. It just looks so stupid when people keep drawing points about her being some sort of role model (well... relative to games she could be) when there is very little to her.

Its sad that people think of her as some sort of Icon for female characters, when at the very most she is equal to barney, who is purely fan service himself (does very little of consequence plot wise, apart from simply interacting with Gordon and adding a bit of wit between gun fights).

Its safe to say very few characters in Half Life are compelling enough to be given merits for it, let alone to be lauded like Alyx. Her praise is disproportional to her presence.

Essentially, she is about on par with everyone else in the game (which could be considered a milestone for female presence in games), but that is not much in terms of praise.

She doesn't deserve to be on "strong character" lists or even "strong female" lists. You can rate her as a completely neutral/functional character or slightly above average (the average not setting the bar too high) at the very best. Again, not something that should be given a pedestal.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

Spoiler: And here is your Big Book of Donts

Now all we need is a writer who can take those examples, and you will have a lasting, memorable female character.

Heh, there is something very poetic about using Xion as an example of an unmemorable character, given the ending of 358/2 Days where everyone

Spoiler

forgot her.

Well, since we already have a Kingdom Hearts example let´s add in a fun female villain from the same franchise (as a more positive example).

 

[ElPatron]

snip.

Yeah it's just super that they are unrealistic to pander to men

>unrealistic

Where's the problem?

>pander to men

lol, no lesbians in the world?

Last time I checked, we humans used genetics and evolution to unconsciously create more humans that pander to each other.

Like I said you are okay with it because it panders to you.

Quote the part where I said that.

I'm sorry, I tolerate a load of crap but insulting me and other people just because you were offended by an image is unacceptable.

That image is so oversexualised it's demeaning to the character and just reduces her to eye candy.

Explain the logic behind that, please.

I actually need a reason to consider the looks of that character "demeaning". Just because some people say it is, doesn't mean it's true.

All of this is just boys crying that they are going to have their fap material taken away. Well boo fucking hoo go and look up Porn on google we don't need this shit in our games.

...

You actually edited out this part?

 

[Lt._nefarious]

It's a simple solution really. Hire more female writers/male writers who can actually write female characters. Also, cut back on the sex appeal in games that don't need it. Easys.

You shouldn't have to write female characters, one should just right characters and the only aspects that shouls have to change because of the characters naughty parts are appearance and voice other wise true equality would be writing her in the same you would write it if she were a man...

 

[Fappy]

It's a simple solution really. Hire more female writers/male writers who can actually write female characters. Also, cut back on the sex appeal in games that don't need it. Easys.

You shouldn't have to write female characters, one should just right characters and the only aspects that shouls have to change because of the characters naughty parts are appearance and voice other wise true equality would be writing her in the same you would write it if she were a man...

Whether we'd like to believe it or not our gender still affects who we are and how we act within the context of our culture and society. It's easy to spot a male character in a female body in this sense. There is nothing wrong with writing gender-neutral characters (Link is a good example), but they usually don't make for the most compelling characters out there. Well written/realistic characters shouldn't be defined by their gender, but their gender does have a part to play assuming the story isn't too far removed from the real world.

EDIT: To clarify, what I mean to say is that a character who's gender is identifiable and blends seamlessly into the concept of the character is ultimately far more believable and relatable.