About Critics (Part 1)

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gdv358

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Nov 11, 2009
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I love to watch your reviews because of this kind of honesty. I respect someone who can admit this kind of thing (both the narcissism and the subjective opinion). However, I don't think I entirely agree with this.

I do agree with many of the points made here, not just yours, but the ones made against critics as a whole. I know that sounds like a strange contradiction. But the problem is that I don't think the criticisms are wrong: they're just not articulated well. When I see people talk about how critics are elite, I know that I share their opinion, but not their word choice. As you said, you should be elite, you should be well informed and educated about the art-form. But, while the issue is similar to elitism, your elitism isn't the real issue.

The disconnect I see between audience and critics is actually well formed by your own article and comes in two parts.

The first is that you state giving your opinion to the audience is tangential to your actual job. This is a pretty common among critics. But the problem is, without that audience, your job wouldn't exist. Holding the industry to a higher standard isn't what you're actually being employed to do. You're being employed to give an opinion to the audience. This is a minor problem because I do believe you're also meant to hold the industry to a higher standard. But if holding the industry accountable were the primary goal here... no one would be employing you. The reason why this matters is because it helps frame point #2.

At times, the need for critics to find something original trumps the need for them to find something -good-. If critics held themselves to the standard of helping the audience wade through the crap to find good movies (as someone who was employed to do that) then I don't think anyone rational would have an issue (there's always irrational people, but they're not the ones I'm talking about). However, sometimes the need for originality (as someone holding the industry accountable) overrides that need for something good. I'm not talking about dismissing a movie because of a lack of originality, those are obviously cheap cash-ins (Pirates, Hangover). Negativity towards bad movies that aren't original isn't the thing that bothers me, positivity towards bad movies that ARE original does.

Critics sometimes recommend very original movies...even if they're bad.

The Tree of Life is a good example. I haven't seen it yet, so I reserve my judgment. But what I do know is that I've heard at least two critics this week say that they COULD NOT recommend this movie as a "good" movie. But in the end they still think everyone should see it. They did not like the movie but they felt it was necessary that everyone watch it anyway. This is the disconnect that causes audiences to question whether the critics are being honest players in the forum of opinion. How can they possibly recommend something they did not actually like? Yes, it's universally called "pretty" but many "pretty" movies can be god awful (summer blockbusters with amazing special effects). So when they're recommending it, they're not recommending it because it's artful (I hear it is) or because it's good (they didn't think so) but because it's original. That's what happens when you hold industry accountability over audience.

To be fair, I think you're one of the few critics that don't do this on a regular basis. Your opinions have always been based in whether or not a movie was crap and you've been honest with people about why. Sometimes a boring movie is just a boring movie and you've always pointed that out. But since you are a critic, you're left to answer for the misdeeds of others in your profession and, when you really think about it, you can't escape the fact that some people recommend crap because it's very original crap.
 

RandV80

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"Critics aren't reliable because they see too many movies."
I have to agree with this, people need to understand that it's not a fault but all a matter of perspective. For example I know full well that I am easily pleased because I don't see a lot of movies... I also can't really pick up on the the difference between good/bad acting and don't notice what to other people is obvious/bad CGI, so that helps a lot too! So something like Pirates of the Caribbean while I'm not going to rush out to see it but if I happen to I will probably enjoy.

That's not to say that in other area's of entertainment where I do spend a lot of my time I'm not overly critical of certain things I've seen to much of. But like I said, it's not a fault but a matter of perspective. I can dismiss World of Warcraft for example because I can see it as a tireless grind, been there done that, but I also understand that if it came out back in say 2000 it probably would have taken me hook line and sinker.

And that's one of the things I like about your reviews is you do often spell this sort of thing out, not that something is necessarily bad but just overdone and tiresome.
 

Redd the Sock

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As someone who's avatar is the same level of overly critical, self rightous elitist, you;ll never hear me complaining about it.

It's funny how in the age of the internet, where EVERYONE can and does put out their half assed opinions we still seem to judge our own off of others'. We haven't grown much since they days we went crying home to mommy because kids made fun of us for our clothes, music, favorite movie or whatever. Of course when the cries of "elitist" come out I cringe. People forget that there can be (and usually is) a great diffence between what is technically good and what we like, yet we all want to only like "good" things. Someone comes along and [seriously] points out the flaw in what we like, and we can't just say it's a guilty pleasure, or that there's some personal bias the prediposes us to the movie (or whatever) and we react poorly. We can't like "bad" things, so we villify those that remind us we aren't quite the smart, refined beings of great taste and ability we like to think we are. It's okay to like just about anything, but if a big name cast list and a couple of explosions were all that you needed to enjoy the expendables (over more over the top self aware action flciks like A-team or Drive Angry) you might have to accept your standards are pretty low and potentially questionable.
 

DSQ

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Zhukov said:
Wait, you read all those comments? All of them? Including these ones right here?

...

You poor man.
Quoting for truth XD

You really liked the tree of life? It really seemed a bit navel gazing for my taste but not in the touching Lost in Traslation way but in the i'm gonna fall to my knees dramticly even though people don't really do this because it looks good way.

As for critics they are ment to be elitst other wised all the film that are masterpices, the once people will remember in 50 yrs would be lost.

Redd the Sock said:
< everything you said is so true.
 

Vampire cat

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I'm amazed at how hurt people can be if someone do not agree with their views. MovieBob suggested I'd watch Machete. I watched it, didn't really enjoy it. So I guess it wasn't my kind of movie, no big deal. As for the Big Picture, I take great pleasure in an articulated man rambling on about seemingly random things straight from the heart without censoring himself too much. It's another kind of beast compared to what we get from newspapers and TV, and I like it.

squiggothhunter said:
Critique-wise, quit fucking saying MOVIES/TV/ETC IS WEIRRRRRRDD because it's really just fucking annoying.

Also if you read this, I hate you, your opinions, and everything you say with the exception of comic book fluff. Enjoy the +1 to your comment count
Besides asking how you even manage to instill such a powerful emotion as HATE towards a person on the internet who basically makes reviews of movies and talks about comics and TV most of the time, if what MovieBob says and does enrages you SO much, why on earth do you still even come close to anything touched by his surely greasy fingers? I cannot, however much I try, comprehend why anyone would torment themselves in such a manner.

It's like hating Justin Bieber. He just made some music, if you don't like it don't listen to it and for gods sake stop buying those teen-girl magazines ><.

Thyunda said:
Bah, be as egomaniacal as you want. You're on the Escapist. We're all full of ourselves.

In truth - that last criticism, the one about watching too many movies, I must be out of touch with the public. How does watching many movies make you a worse critic? I don't see the logic in that.
I agree. Experience is a good thing, as it provides a much more clear picture. It's worth mentioning that this kind of hatred for "elitism" is everywhere. I've seen people at hardware stores enraged because the trained professional that works there DARED suggest something other than what the customer had chosen. It's strange to me how humans resent others for their experience, knowledge and skill. Of course the screw-driver that the customer picked would work fine, it's not a bad screw-driver. All the employee is trying to say is, the one he is suggesting is slightly better, for whatever reason. Bad comparison maybe, as most hardware stores wouldn't even sell what could be classified as a "bad" screw-driver.

So our movie taste is simpler than MovieBobs. So what? I don't mind feeling stone-age when it comes to movies, they don't really interest me. I'll watch one occasionally, but it's just not what I do, and I find comfort in knowing that I could kick MovieBobs or any other film critics butt in one of my fields of interest ANY day =).
 

kab040

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Oct 22, 2010
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MovieBob, you are a geek and I love you for it.

I think what most need to differentiate between is what is a "Good" movie and an "Entertaining Movie". For example I saw the Kings Speech it was a good movie and I saw Pirates 4 and it was an entertaining movie. Now the best movies are the one's who can blend the two distinctions. Inception was a good example of this.

Anyway that is just by two-cents enjoy reading MovieBob.
 

Callate

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Well... There's elitism and there's elitism.

(How's that for vague.)

At it's best, "elitism" is saying "We, as a whole, deserve better." And there can certainly be undertones that someone- say, a movie critic- has a better understanding of the overall situation and its possibilities, and that while many people may feel that there's nothing particularly wrong with the status quo, the expert's greater understanding leads him or her to recognize that things could be much better than they are (say, that the medium of film is capable of more than has been recently offered). A genuine love of the medium within which mediocrity is being offered and/or a public-service minded desire to inform people of what it is they're missing then stirs the expert to make his or her realizations available to the public in the hope of improvement.

Conversely, there's an anti-elitist movement that basically amounts to "How dare you make us feel dumb by being smarter than we are."

However, there's also an "elitism" which amounts to "I'm a better person for disliking 'x', and if you were a better sort of person, you'd dislike 'x', too." Some people- particularly a kind of pseudo-intellectual who starts the conversation from a point of aggressive dismissiveness in the hopes that no one will dare to challenge his or her authority- call this attitude "square one"; other times, the former, "better" kind of elitism leads to the latter out of a kind of frustration. ("What's wrong with these people? Don't they understand?!") If you can't sway 'em with reason, you try shame- that way lies the dark side.

Where am I going with this?... Hmm. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that those who make accusations of elitism have a certain obligation to prove that what the so-called "elitist" is calling for isn't just for people, or a medium, or a way of doing things to get better. We should distinguish between a condescending insistence that others respect a so-called "expert's" authority and a genuine desire to reveal the truth and see things improve.
 
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Most of the time I agree with you Bob. There's been a few times where you've really annoyed me, but overall I appreciate your depth of vision.

Perhaps it's just the atmosphere at times. Group A loves you, and denounces Group B, who hates you, and your "success" is made up from Group A + Group B.

So it makes sense for you to be as elitist as possible.

Problem being, that makes your controversy more important than your actual feelings.

And how do you criticise something that's popular these days without being told that you're only criticizing it because it's popular? Unless you're not criticising it because it's popular, and then you're selling out.

Teal Deer: Opinions are good. Informed Opinions are better. I think Bob has some informed opinions, but he's still a fanyboy at times. Just like most of the rest of us. But he's seen an awful lot more films, so credit goes to him on reviews.
 

Thyunda

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Vampire cat said:
Many, many words
While, yes, I do trust MovieBob's experience to define an artistic or 'good' film - I will say that he's yet to make a real mistake on that front, which is to his credit. My only issue with him is that he doesn't actually seem capable of enjoying a film unless it has artistic appeal. I just think it skews the reviews a little when a film is deemed 'bad' and its audience labelled 'douchebags' simply because the film tries to appeal to the masses, rather than the intellectual niche.
If that makes sense. It's like, I was perfectly fine with his review of The Hangover II...I've never seen it, but I already reckon he hit the nail on the head with it.
However, his rant about Transformers was seemingly based on the age-old 'YOU RAPED MY CHILDHOOD' attitude. ROTF was an enjoyable film...but since it was a big-budget action film, it was completely thrown out the window.
 

Scorekeeper

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I appreciate your honesty and passion regarding film. I don't think I'd ever listen to a game review of yours, though. Your taste in movies are similar to mine, however.
 

JUSTINtimeforalaugh

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I think you are downplaying perspectives a bit much. It would be pretty boastful for someone to say that their way or opinion on what is right or wrong is the only correct way. Not everyone has the same tastes. There are people who will enjoy The Hurt Locker over Avatar. Or vice versa. I have no want to see an over thought, emotional movie all the time. Sometimes I want to watch a goofy movie with Johnny Depp as a pirate.

I loved the new Pirates of the Caribbean film. And I believe you didn't. Well, that is your opinion. You have every right to voice your opinion too (which you should since it is your show). But the one thing I had thought about your show is that you were not the kind to judge others for their views. I watched your Last Airbender review (another movie I loved), and I was thrilled to see that even though you saw that it was a flawed movie, you didn't blast it like other reviewer's and say it had no merits at all. Everyone else refused to accept that there was anything enjoyable in it, even though it made alot of money in theaters and on DVD and Blu-Ray. That's why I was saddened when you didn't give the new Pirates movie that same chance. You just opened your video saying that it sucked. Sucked.

I had a blast watching that movie, laughing myself silly, and enjoying the crap outta some Captain Jack. Sure I saw things that were wrong with it, and plenty that was right. But that was my opinion. When I left the theater I didn't try to convince my friends it was great. I respected that they didn't enjoy it as much as I did (even though they still liked it).

I had just started to watch your Escape to the Movies series (I've already watched every Zero Punctuation and Extra Credits, so I was looking for new things), and I was getting excited about seeing a reviewer that has the same view point as me on these matters. I guess I had gotten too excited too quickly.
 

Kenjitsuka

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Interesting stuff, Bob.
Let me tell you something tho; most haters are just trolls who complain/kick at everything that crosses their field of vision.

Words like "Elitst"? They hear them once and just keep repeating them to sound smarter.
Critics are important to see the Big Picture (pun intended) as clear as possible and give real, tangible advice, praise and critique when appropriate.

I've been writing articles for big PC magazines fulltime for many years and speaking about the comments you get... whoo boy! People perceive some fault and then attack you like you did something unwholesome to their mom after killing their puppies in front of their eyes. And then it's me saying: "Dear Sir, if you click on 'Menu' and select 'Print' you *can* actually print your work. Alternatively, press Ctrl+P. Best regards, and thanks for calling me a liar who doesn't do any research."

Okay, I never write the last part after regards...
 

Kenjitsuka

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Thyunda said:
How does watching many movies make you a worse critic? I don't see the logic in that.
The flawed logic behind it is probably that the critics get jaded and "spoiled" because they see everything. So their demands are then "unreasonably high", which makes them way to picky to enjoy a "decent movie" that "normal people would find great".
This is my thought process on that, I do not share these views.
 

mfeff

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Bob your one of the best critics around (to me), and while I do not always agree with what you have to say, I enjoy your perspective. You simply know more about the youth/pop culture of America than I do, and you have been to at least one more film appreciation class than I have, that is to say, you have been to at least 2.

I have followed you since YouTube, and feel legitimately sorry for not praising you until now. I have watched most if not all your published work, and would gladly pay for content such as the Hang Over 2 review.

The opening scene was INSPIRED!

Your nameless faceless fan,

me
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Our overall perspective is not the perspective of our audience, particularly when it comes to the area of originality. We get bored more easily. Cliché and formula bothers us more. Tropes you've seen a handful of times we've seen thousands of times. This means we are much harder on the formulaic, and that we are much more excited by something that is original.
Now this quote exemplifies one of the reasons that I find the opinions of movie critics on any particular movie to be somewhat less informative (I use this word hesitantly) than they should be.

Because critics get so bored of tropes and formulaic movies that they've seen a bunch of times, they are much more drawn to something that is new and original. While originality is definitely a bonus, many times it seems that critics are so infatuated by the originality of a premise of a certain movie that they end up turning a blind eye to its faults simply because it was something that interested them.

Personally I, and I'm sure many others will agree with me, believe that a movie that is technically proficient, but with a somewhat played out plot, is still much better than a movie that is original, but lacking in all other areas. Take for example Avatar. It's an amazing movie, brilliantly executed, but with a story we've all seen many times before (Pocahontas, Dancing with Wolves, etc). Many people (movie snobs), panned Avatar because of the simple fact that the story is a retread of past stories they've already seen, with no real originality and surprises beyond the sci-fi setting, but the movie wasn't popular because of the story but rather because it is brilliantly directed, and visually stunning.

Now take a look at Daybreakers, something that Moviebob gave pretty high praise to because of its originality as basically being the "anti-Twilight" movie. Yes, Daybreakers is somewhat original in its use of vampire lore, but I found everything else in it to be rather lacking in substance, and came out of the movie disappointed. The visual style was boring, a lot of the direction felt sloppy, and the story wasn't all that interesting. Bob here overlooked all of that and highly recommended the movie.

Am I saying that the opinions of critics are wrong and should be disregarded? No, not at all, they're in fact quite valid, but one should be careful of any movie that critics praise as being original, because it seems to me that critics are willing to let A LOT slide for originality. On the other hand, most people who don't see 4-5 movies a week are more likely to like something that is solid, yet somewhat formulaic, because they haven't seen the formula enough to get sick of it yet. Because of this, I really do think that the criticism that "critics are unreliable because they've seen too many movies" can be valid to the average person, if the movie critic is in fact supposed to be catering to the tastes of "the average person" and not to other critics, or to "movie snobs."
 

bombadilillo

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
bombadilillo said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
My problem isn't any of those points, it is how you make things personal. You insult people of differing opinions. If you enjoy The Expendables you are "probably the worst kind of person." Really? Also, I don't care about your personal life. You completely invalidated your own review of Scream 4 by opening with that rant about the Scream franchise taking away your "skill" (it was never a skill in the first place).

Just be more professional. That is what I am asking.
I think his point was more like this...When people watched Sideways a bunch of them magically thought that they were wine snobs and ran around pretending to be sophisticated by adopting traits and opinions that they had nothing to do with before a movie came along and made it popular. Real wine geeks are pissed at the newcomers literally posing in on their hobby.

I think you misunderstood his point, or at least his issue with it.
Now you are making him sound like a hipster. More people gaining interest in something is usually considered a good thing.
Well i am perpetually pissed that Comic Con got popular and I can ever get a freaking ticket becuae douchebags decided it was cool and all want to go. So I see where he is coming from. No more people interested in something can ruin. Especially when they dont actually care but are doing it to be trendy.
 

Vitor Goncalves

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From interpretation point of view of a piece of art, each person will have their own.
From technicality point of view, either its down to common sense or the fact a critic points out the flaws won't help unless the audience is also well informed enough to understand (they might be and still might not care, if one expects a movie to make him laugh, cry or shit his pants, and the movie does that, does it matter if technically the movie was pure crap?!).
For both these reasons critics are out of touch with the audience.

As for being harsher with more popular art pieces, in terms of movies its primarily I coincidence I guess, as critics come out before the movies are released to the public. Being visceral afterwards or with sequels of popular franchises, I agree. But popular franchises are made to become money cows to be milked until exaustion from the beginning. Less effort for more money will rule unless instead bashing the makers, we can educate the audience to change its standards and disapprove lazy productions.

As for unreliable depending on the sheer number of movies seen, I agree with you. I can see someone seeing thousands and still not being able to learn anything from it or changing their standards.

The thing is if critics are to work (to preserve/improve production quality) by making the audience capable of understanding their meaning (more on the technical point of view) it wont be by individual movies critics. People need to understand the principles involved. And yet, if they were so objective and were to improve production to a certain standard you would expect always similar reviews, and not mixed ones. Unless of course there are also great critics and blantantly horrible ones. But recognising bad critics is adding to the cause of the bashers.

At the end of that day, critics are yet another opinion. I dont use them to decide if I am going to see a movie or not. And I can come up with my own judgement too. But I will value them as opinions with which I can compare mine.
 

wagglelance

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I pretty much only come to the escapist any more for Movie Bob. You do good work and you set yourself apart from the dare I say hacks on TGWTG. Keep up the good work kiddo, I wouldn't change a thing. Unless I was asked to. Then I would say lets change the way summer camps are viewed. I have great summer camp stories and I can't tell them because everyone I know always gives me funny looks when I tell them I still go to summer camps at age 24.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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bombadilillo said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
bombadilillo said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
My problem isn't any of those points, it is how you make things personal. You insult people of differing opinions. If you enjoy The Expendables you are "probably the worst kind of person." Really? Also, I don't care about your personal life. You completely invalidated your own review of Scream 4 by opening with that rant about the Scream franchise taking away your "skill" (it was never a skill in the first place).

Just be more professional. That is what I am asking.
I think his point was more like this...When people watched Sideways a bunch of them magically thought that they were wine snobs and ran around pretending to be sophisticated by adopting traits and opinions that they had nothing to do with before a movie came along and made it popular. Real wine geeks are pissed at the newcomers literally posing in on their hobby.

I think you misunderstood his point, or at least his issue with it.
Now you are making him sound like a hipster. More people gaining interest in something is usually considered a good thing.
Well i am perpetually pissed that Comic Con got popular and I can ever get a freaking ticket becuae douchebags decided it was cool and all want to go. So I see where he is coming from. No more people interested in something can ruin. Especially when they dont actually care but are doing it to be trendy.
How do you know that "douchebags are going because it got cool"? That is like me saying that gaming was better before Facebook, Halo, and CoD increased the gaming audience. It is really just hipster talk. Strawmanning is never a good thing.
 

goliath6711

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Wolfram01 said:
That's not at all the point. A movie doesn't have to be The King's Speech to be a good film. I mean, look at the Fast and Furious movies. They are not good films. The plots suck, the acting is mediocre, the action is almost cartoony. But they are fun movies. That doesn't mean critics shouldn't slam them for what they are.
I hate people that expect every movie they see to be some life changing experience. I'm not spending 8 bucks to have my life changed, I'm spending it to be entertained for two hours. I watched "Se7en" and "Gangs of New York" because of the critical buzz they recieved and will never watch either of them again because I couldn't stand their endings.

Wolfram01 said:
Call of Duty is one of the worst offenders in the video game arena for being formulaic and repetitive. They all have the same multiplayer and they all have pretty mediocre single player campaigns when you consider the scope of what video games have done - including single player FPS games. The franchise is pretty stagnant but people love it. People are also stupid. It should be slammed for being generic, for being yet another grey brown shooter, for having a same-old same-old multiplayer experience. That doesn't mean people shouldn't buy it, or like it, or play it. It just means it's not something to hold up as a shining example of video games... Games that are given 9/10 and 10/10 should be games we can all point to and say hey, look at that game. This is what video games are about, what they can be. CoD, as much fun as it is, is just a shitty action movie. It's fun, but it's dumb. I would think it deserves at best a 7.5 thanks to the amount of fun you can have, but otherwise..?
Call of Duty is not being held up as A shinning example, it being held up as THEIR shinning example. Mine include Bloodrayne 2, Headhunter: Redemption and Rumble Roses among others.

Wolfram01 said:
Also... how can a game critic possibly judge a game for enjoyment, something that is so personal and subjective? That doesn't take skill or knowledge. On that critera, my 8 year old cousin could be a great game reviewer. No, MovieBob is right. Reviewers need to delve into the nitty gritty details and look beyond if it's "fun" or not.
No... for games, everything beyond the fun factor should be considered a bonus.