About Relationship Sanctity....

[Athinira]

Yes he does. He owes some basic decency.

You hating it doesn't make it go away. Newsflash: He does.

Why? because you say so?

For someone who was busy pointing out that my use of the word "Period" was inappropriate, i would like you to point me to which law (or whatever) that is written that says you owe people basic decency.

Oh wait, you can't.

Listen, the reason we treat each other "decent" in our daily life is because it's productive. If everyone thinks you're an asshole, then you won't get very far in life, so therefore we typically go around acting nice. That, however, does not mean we have to, and it doesn't mean there aren't times where being egotistical is advantageous rather than disadvantageous.

Simply rejecting treating others decently reflects negatively on someone.

True.

But you still don't have to. You don't owe anyone anything.

Did you not reply to a post explicitly saying "If he sleeps with her"? Or in your world is cheating not backstabbing?

I replied to a post concerning whether or not it could be seen as competition (your post if you recall).

Anyway, since people generally have a tendency to throw words they don't understand (inluding me, we're all guilty sometimes), i would like you to go look the word "Backstab" up.

"Backstabbing", as the word implies, involves stabbing someone in the back, meaning that the person in question trusts you. Since he likely doesn't have any relationship with her boyfriend, he therefore isn't a person of trust, and therefore can't backstab him. If he, on the other hand, was a friend of the boyfriend (the famous "banging your best friends girlfriend/wife"-scenario) it would be a different. A synonym for backstabbing is "Betrayal", and you can't betray someone you don't know.

Oh you're one of those people. That talk about being a 'man'. Well little hope for you then.

Ah you're one of those people. You can't figure out a proper response, so you resort to the "Little hope for you, i win" method of arguing?

That's how we discuss things, right? (c wut i did there?)

.oO(Also, considering that you decided to ignore the last part of my other post, i assume that you couldn't figure out a proper counter-argument there either. As someone who was just busy explaining what reflects negatively on people, you need to step up your game matey)

 

[son_of_khorne]

I would personally back off. I would also advise my friend to as well and if my they didn't listen I don't think I could remain friends with them as I would never be able to respect them again.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

A synonym for backstabbing is "Betrayal", and you can't betray someone you don't know.

The dictionary disagrees.

1.to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty:
3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

You just have to read this thread to see that many people hold the expectation that third parties will not mess with their significant others, that they will respect the relationship. I can see why those people might feel "betrayed".

I do agree with you, though, that it's an odd reaction, and that expecting total strangers to have an unspoken social contract with you is achingly naive. The moment that stranger takes an interest in your S/O, you are an adversary. People will justify doing all kinds of shameless crap to their adversaries.

 

[game-lover]

For the girls.... Yes to both.

Not only would I tell friend or sister to back off, but I would judge her so hard if she didn't. I mean, bitchy, judging. Because she'd just lose all my respect. And to further show my lack of respect I'd have for my sister or friend. I'm snitching. I'm telling the guy's girlfriend that my sister or close friend is screwing him. Straight up.

Sis or close friend will probably hate me but I don't bloody care.

 

[Devil_Worshipper]

On one hand it'll land you in very scalding liquid, on the other the sex will be awesome.
The pinksnake is giving the thumb up, so it must be good.

 

[Catie Caraco]

I could not disagree more with the people saying "as long as you're single, it's not your fault." If you know that the object of your desire is with someone else, then it is my opinion that you are just as guilty as the person who is in the relationship. There are enough people in the world that you don't need to go sniffing about those who are already spoken for. And I think much of society agrees with me, or we wouldn't have terms like "home-wrecker".

A lot of people are tempted to cheat because things in their relationship have become status-quo and both partners are now taking each other for granted. It doesn't make their feelings any less valid, or their love any weaker. It's simply something they need to address and either work through or agree to separate. By offering yourself to one of those people you're tempting them to stray when they wouldn't go seeking it themselves. Statistics I've read (but can't be assed to look up right now, when I should be getting ready for work anyway. They're out there, mostly in mags like Cosmo or on similar websites) say most men cheat not because their mistress is sexier or more desirable than their wife/girlfriend, but because they show more interest than their current partner. Most men in affairs don't love their mistresses more than their wives/girlfriends, they just need to feel validated.

If you're tricked and the person you slept with lied about their relationship status that is a different matter, but if you get with someone who isn't single and you know it, you're just as guilty. Having been in a situation where a friend of mind rabidly pursued my boyfriend, knowing we were together, I blame her more now for the split than I do him. (Perhaps because it was like, 11 years ago and in the end, I won the guy back anyway, several years later when we were both older and much wiser.) In the end, I think it's best to stay away from people who are in relationships and look instead in the single crowd. As others have said, do you really want someone who is so easily swayed anyway? Good sex needs intimacy and intimacy can't be built upon lies.

 

[waj9876]

It...depends. Honestly. If I were to be attracted to a girl already in a relationship, to the point that I would like to try and date said girl, I would probably back off if she seemed happy in her relationship. If she didn't seem happy, I still wouldn't push the issue. I'd just not completely dismiss any possibility of her breaking up with said person.

It all ultimately comes down to said person I'm attracted to. If SHE were the one dropping hints at me while she was already in a relationship, I'd realize she's probably not the kind of person I would be happy with. And if I were the one in the relationship and she wasn't, I wouldn't cheat. Period. The only thing that could make me consider is a SERIOUSLY abusive relationship. I don't care how much I like, or even love, someone. If they do THAT, it's fucking over. (Oh yeah, I'm one of those people who despise all kinds of abusive relationships. Male on Female. Male on Male. Female on Female. And Female on Male. It just completely, and equally, disgusts me.)

 

[Drake666]

Ah, then I just think you are stupid. Random sex with people you have no intention of forming a relationship with is a bad idea.

Why ? I mean, when 2 persons, 2 consenting adults, have sex because they find each other attractive, but don't want a relationship (for any reasons what so ever), they can do whatever they want

However, some people are not good at separating sex and feeling. Those shouldn't do it.

Personally, I had random sex with fuck buddies or more-or-less random girls (friends of friends) and I don't regret it. I sometimes talk with some of those girls and they don't seem to regret it. You just got to be an adult about it Life can be simple!

 

[senordesol]

Why not?

Because I don't see anything wrong with it. I thought we'd already covered that.

So one person is doing evil and the other isn't? That don't pass the smell test.

Hardly evil, but yes, one side is doing something wrong and the other isn't.
Only one person in the affair is breaking their agreement, the other had no such agreement in the first place.

Imagine there's a group of writers writing a magazine, they sign a contract with a publishing company to publish the magazine.
Those writers then, before the contract is up, refuse to let the publishers carry on publishing the magazine and instead switch to an entirely different publisher.
Now the writers are liable to some extent, they'll owe damages to the original publisher for breaking the contract. The publisher they switched to, however, isn't guilty of a thing, they did nothing wrong, even if they knew the writers were breaking their contract.

Now you'll probably say that a relationship isn't the same a contract law. But I disagree, I see no real difference at all. If anything, breaking a contract is more often worse, as a broken relationship usually causes no more than emotional pain, while breaking a contract can cause someone's career to fail.

Ok, so you see no moral dilemma in assisting someone in breaking a promise; the result of which is likely to cause pain?

No. It's their promise to keep, not mine. As for doing an action that benefits myself but causes pain to a stranger, we all do that all the time. Have you never taken the last spot in a restaurant? Or the last item off a shop shelf?
Or, as someone said before, have you never attended a job interview?

I am not absolving the party in the relationship of responsibility, I have said before that they are, indeed, the *most* culpable. But knowingly doing your part to undermine a relationship for your own personal gain strikes you as a quite upstanding thing to do?

I never said it was upstanding, just that it wasn't wrong.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. She doesn't *get* the choice to treat me as a toy, I have too much respect for myself. It takes two to tango.

Fine, but that a selfish reason to not go after her, not a moral one.

If she chooses to betray her partner, that is her choice but it does not mean I have to be party to it.

As I say, often it's not that simple. What if she's in an abusive relationship and what she needs is an out? No amount of friends will help, as she won't admit anything. What she needs is someone else who looks like they want her in the same way so she can realise there is another option. But you refuse to even let her know you want her, and thereby refuse to give her a way out.

That doesn't seem very moral to me.

It is not my duty to sort out her relationship troubles by means of undermining them.

I never said it was, but it's not your duty to not either.
You shouldn't be offering yourself to every girl out there "just in case", but neither should you be refusing to try when you do find someone you want simply for the sake of a stranger. You don't know this stranger at all, he might not deserve the relationship he has. It isn't your judgement to make. It's hers. The only reasonable thing to do is to let her know how you feel, though words and actions, so she can make the choice for herself, fully informed.

Refusing to let people know how you feel "for their own good" is treating them like a child, not an adult.

If I knowingly and willingly facilitate immoral action resulting in pain and heartache (whether I know the person or not is irrelevant), I bear at least some portion of the responsibility.

But the action isn't immoral. So that's moot.

I'm not saying that those who do so are buddies with Hitler, I'm saying it is not the right and noble thing to do.

I never said it was.
Most of your argument seems to be "This isn't good." while my argument is "This isn't bad."
Those two points of view are not incompatible.

Y'know, the argument here is whether you'd sleep with somebody who is currently in a relationship. Your arguments are based on encouraging them to separate. The two are completely different things.

For one, I've got nothing against a guy who sees a problematic relationship, sits down with the girl and says "Look, you need to leave." If she chooses to leave and then the guy sleeps with her, whatever. That's fair game.

What's NOT fair game is saying "Oh, they've got problems" and then fucking her. What have you done for her? You've made things worse. The 'Not my problem' attitude is abhorrent. We're all people, we're all in the same community. You might not know the guy, but he might be your best friend if you met him under different circumstances. Course, you didn't treat him like a person and nailed his girlfriend, and then you walk off with a 'not my problem'.

This goes to anybody who has ever treated a situation with 'Not my problem'. If you're being held at knifepoint for your wallet, I hope that the cops who show up are on the take, and walk off with a 'Not my problem'.

Alright now this is just plain weird. Are you sure you weren't just messing with me in the other thread?

The only thing I have to add (read: emphasize) is that you are not helping anyone by sleeping with this girl, and you are only hurting her (and someone) else in the long-run. You are causing emotional pain to someone for nothing more than your personal enjoyment.

Whether or not you 'owe' someone anything is immaterial. Honoring an obligation is the least you can do. Making the right decision when it's no skin off your nose either way is the noble and honorable thing to do.

Knowingly making someone else's life worse for your own personal pleasure is immoral. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. Just because you enjoy it, or don't care, or don't know the person you're hurting doesn't make it any less so.

 

[Athinira]

That's how you seem to have been operating. Why should I be any more rigorous?

I'm simply arguing the same way you've been.

Difference is that when I'm saying "Period", I'm typically coming off a strong point. I don't go around arguing that way every sentence i make.

I originally used it when i said that it's the "girlfriends" job to turn interested males down if she has a boyfriend already. It's not the interested males "job" to back off. Now you can argue that what they're doing is unethical or indecent, but it's still not their job to make sure she stays faithful. It's hers.

I don't care why people do it. Nor did I say that people doing it has any link to needing to do it. I'm simply saying those who don't do it are unethical. Didn't say they need to. Just if they want to be decent people.

And again, "decency" is arguable.

I don't like infidelity either, but if someone is to blame for infidelity, it's the girl/boyfriend involved.

Congratulations on missing my wording. I said he aided her. She was doing the backstabbing, he was complicit in helping her manage it and essentially giving approval.

"Approval" is irrelevant since it doesn't have to be given. If she was somehow dependent on his approval you would have a point, but it's not a mandatory approval.

What we as humans personally approve or disapprove of is irrelevant if it doesn't have a saying. If i meet a hot girl who is taken, i don't have to approve or disapprove of her actions, because she doesn't need to care about my opinion regardless. If i was her dad and she wasn't an adolescent yet, things would be different because i would be controlling parts of her life.

Listen, noone is "complicit" in helping someone managing infidelity. Even if a girl was her boyfriend unfaithful with you, it didn't necessarily have to be you. She could have been unfaithful with basically any guy she knows. SHE is the necessary aspect of the infidelity-equation, not you.

Well all you did was make some stupid claim about being a 'man'.

I said i took it like a man. Big difference.

You mean the part that had nothing to do with cheating? Why yes, how odd. I ignored it after pointing out that I'm talking about cheating.

...a point which i already addressed, several times. I just said backstabbing wasn't a necessarily a part of the competition.

But i guess I'll have to address it again: As much as i dislike infidelity, it's still the boy/girlfriends job to stay faithful, while it's the job of the interested party to tempt them to infidelity. That's how competition works.

Do i like it? No. Do i have to live with it? Yes. Whose fault is it? The unfaithful persons.

 

[boag]

This goes to anybody who has ever treated a situation with 'Not my problem'. If you're being held at knifepoint for your wallet, I hope that the cops who show up are on the take, and walk off with a 'Not my problem'.

I don't see how two people engaging in consensual sexual activity when one of them is in a relationship is anything like this situation.

How about: you are out having a drink with friends, and one of your mates is underage and got in with a fake ID, do you say "I will not be a party to this misconduct", or "meh, let's have a beer". You guys are having fun, and your mate is doing something wrong by the 3rd party (the bar/or liquir licencing authority or whatever)

Well in that case the rule's oretty arbitrary so I don't think it is necessarily a terrible dilemma. Unless you think breaking the law about the age you can drink is really bad or something it wouldn't matter. In the case of cheating on someone, it's much more despicable though.

That's the crux of it there, why so many people post with fervour in this thread. Some people see being cheated on as a horrible evil presumably due to personal experiences. I guess I am just a hopeless romantic who believes in true love. When you know, you know. If someone is in a relationship like that, than they aren't going to cheat. People are going to cheat in relationships that are less important, which I don't see as any great loss. Relationships come in all sorts of types, and the best person to judge how important their relationship is is the person in that relationship, not me. I definitely favour the 'Not my problem' approach.

Oh wow, I havent laughed so hard in ages, thinking that important relationships cant have moments of weakness, and that stable relationships are mean to be.

Here is a hint, relationships take effort and compromise, they just dont happen because.

and here is a fact, in a relationship where one of the partners cheats, the bond of trust will forever be broken, and will not be repaired, EVER.

as for the not my problem comment, I do hope you rescind that type of thought, because it makes you a despicable human being.

 

[Thyunda]

Alright now this is just plain weird. Are you sure you weren't just messing with me in the other thread?

Eh? How'd you mean?

 

[senordesol]

Alright now this is just plain weird. Are you sure you weren't just messing with me in the other thread?

Eh? How'd you mean?

In the post I quoted, you said everything I wanted to say.

 

[Kathinka]

i wasn't trying to imply some mystical nonsense here, sorry for the confusion.

what i meant was that if someone can be convinved to cheat or leave his partner, then their relationship was obviously not a very good one. hence my oppinion: go for it. other peoples loyalty is not your responsibility.

I hear you, but still respectfully disagree. People are complicated. Social dynamics are complicated. Sexual dynamics are EXTREMELY complicated. Perfectly healthy relationships can be momentarily vulnerable for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the partnership.

Honestly, it would be good if more people were cognizant of just how unbelievably fragile even strong relationships can be. We might take them for granted less. Of course, then the stress and worry would kill us, so maybe not...

true, people and how they interact are incredibly complex and complicated. but there is stuff that you just don't do, like sleeping with people without consent of your partner. and really, it is not that hard, if you really want to.

so i still think; if you are interested in someone, and that someone is in a relationship, his or her fidelity is not your problem or responsibility.

 

[Thyunda]

Alright now this is just plain weird. Are you sure you weren't just messing with me in the other thread?

Eh? How'd you mean?

In the post I quoted, you said everything I wanted to say.

But why would I be messing with you? That's the confusing part.

 

[senordesol]

Alright now this is just plain weird. Are you sure you weren't just messing with me in the other thread?

Eh? How'd you mean?

In the post I quoted, you said everything I wanted to say.

But why would I be messing with you? That's the confusing part.

I was being sarcastic. It's rare for me to find someone I so vehemently disagree with on one issue to be totally in synch on another. Your post on the other page practically took the words out of my mouth (keyboard?).

It's just a curious inconsistency (not that you're being inconsistent, but that it's rare.) I was really doing little else than making a lame joke to preface my elaboration.

 

[Thyunda]

Alright now this is just plain weird. Are you sure you weren't just messing with me in the other thread?

Eh? How'd you mean?

In the post I quoted, you said everything I wanted to say.

But why would I be messing with you? That's the confusing part.

I was being sarcastic. It's rare for me to find someone I so vehemently disagree with on one issue to be totally in synch on another. Your post on the other page practically took the words out of my mouth (keyboard?).

It's just a curious inconsistency (not that you're being inconsistent, but that it's rare.) I was really doing little else than making a lame joke to preface my elaboration.

I'm living proof that one person does not fit into the left or the right, so to speak. In that thread, I feel that the police fumbled the ball and wound up with a dead suspect. In this thread, I feel that men who have no respect for other men and their relationships are cowards. I figure, if the boyfriend is a bad person, then go to him and tell him his girlfriend will leave him if he carries on. Any further counts of dickishness are perfectly acceptable causes of violence, if you feel it's necessary, but at no point will fucking a guy's girlfriend EVER prove anything.

I found a beautiful quote for this on a wall in an Irish bar. I don't know who the original author is.

"A brave man defeats his enemy with the sword. The coward does it with a kiss."

Or something like that. It was years ago.

 

[Athinira]

Your point was a weak one. It was a claim, nothing more. So simply make the opposite claim.

(...)

It's people's job to be ethical.

Is it? Since when?

And if so, why are you contradicting yourself considering you made this statement earlier (which is even in your current post):

I don't care why people do it. Nor did I say that people doing it has any link to needing to do it. I'm simply saying those who don't do it are unethical. Didn't say they need to. Just if they want to be decent people.

Like i said earlier: Unless you can point me to some law that requires me to be ethical in this case, then it's NOONES job to be ethical in this situation.

It's simple wishful thinking on your part. Your point is the weak one, not mine, because you still seem to live in a world where people are required to conform to those "rules" you think exist (hint: they aren't, because they don't exist).

They take the responsibility for that. However aiding it is itself something blameworthy.

Arguable. I'm going to disagree, but this is something we likely aren't going to agree on at any point.

No, approval is relevant. What someone approves of reflects on them. Approving of unethical actions is itself unethical.

Not really. If it was, then having "unethical thoughts" would likely be a crime (and indeed has been, especially in times of heavy religious belief where you did well to keep your opinion to yourself). There is a reason we have the right to free speech in most modern countries.

Also you can't divorce it from action completely. Showing approval or disapproval is a way of applying pressure socially.

Nope, but cheating on your partner and sleeping with someone elses partner is still two different things that CAN be divorced.

Social pressure is just that: pressure. It's not enforcement. Sure there can be consequences by your choice, but noone forces you. All you have to do is ask yourself: Is it worth it?

If it's your best friends girlfriend or something, then it's likely not worth it.
However, if it's just a random girl who happens to have a boyfriend, it's much more likely to be worth it (unless her boyfriend is the type to show up at your door with a 12 gauge or a baseball bat).

Bad argument. Just because said bad action would occur later with someone else does not justify participation. For instance, corruption is not justified by saying "Oh well, if they didn't buy me off they'd buy someone else off"

If you take a bribe, that makes both you and the briber corrupt.
Sleeping with someone who has a partner, however, does not make you unfaithful/cheating.

Bad example, not bad argument.

Not really. 'like a man' is nonsense. Enforcing of outdated gender roles.

No, it's an expression with REFERENCE. It's used because people know what it means, not because it expresses that the man is superior to the woman or something similar. It's like saying that someone "has balls". Reference to the male body, yes, but the expression can be used on both genders to signify doing something bold.

It is not the 'job' of the interested party. It is their choice. And they can be blamed for their choices.

If your goal is to get laid (or perhaps find a future girlfriend/wife) and you believe the girl in question is a potential/good candidate, then yes, it is your job. If you don't do your job, you don't reap the benefits. That's how the world works.

And yes, people can be blamed for their choices. They can also avoid it. It depends entirely on the circumstances, and if you evaluate the benefits to outweigh the negatives, then you go for it.

Like i said, sometimes it can be advantageous to be egotistical rather than respectful. That's generally how the most successful people in the world move forward: By perfectly varying their act between being egotistical and respectful.
And let me tell you that the biggest players in the love-game care very little about their rivals. Might seem harsh to you, but it brings them success and respect among their peers ("Wow dude, you're a machine. How do you go home with a woman every night out?"), so why wouldn't they?

You can sit and whine about it being unethical from now to Armageddon, but fact is that those who pusher harder typically get first in line. And they enjoy it.

 

[peruvianskys]

his or her fidelity is not your problem or responsibility.

That is absolutely true, in that if you saw him or her flirting with another stranger, you would not be required to leap in and tackle them in order to stop the infidelity.

However, that's very different from the situation here, where you ACTIVELY AID in the breaking of that commitment. It's not like you're just some passive bystander; you're making the choice to interact with someone who is in a relationship, a choice that you know will cause emotional distress for others.

 

[senordesol]

It's people's job to be ethical.

Is it? Since when?

Since the OP asked 'is it wrong to..?' He's asking whether it's an ethical predicament, not whether it is 'advantageous', not whether it's legal, not whether you'd do it yourself, but if it's ethical.

If you are acknowledging that finding yourself in such circumstances is unethical, how can it therefore not be 'wrong'?

So when you ask 'Since when [is it someone's job to be ethical]?', the answer should be obvious. It is your job to be ethical if your goal is to be ethical. If you don't want to be ethical: fine. But it doesn't mean you're in the right.