Accpet Steam's New EULA or Say Goodbye To Your Steam Account UPDATED

[clangunn]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

I keep hopping into this conversations late and want to address points from the first page ><

So, I bet this has been addressed, but Steam does not (to the best of my limited understanding) sell you video games. Steam is selling you access to video games. You do not own any digitally downloaded games. The one exception to this may be GoG (edit: in reading through the comments it seems posters have cited other services that don't as well). Maybe Stardock, but I doubt it.

When you turn off your Steam account you are revoking your right to access those games.

The question remains, however, whether or not Valve, EA, GoG, or any other digital distributor is within their rights to use this business model. Currently in Europe there was a Court ruling that customers have the legal privilege of reselling digitally distributed software. This could, potentially, challenge the whole concept of the digital distribution model. Does this mean that in Europe when you purchase a digital license you "own" the license - i.e. if I were to sell you my Steam downloaded version of Portal 2 for $5 am I selling [/b] you the ownership of the access to that game? Or does it mean that by purchasing and downloading a game you own that copy of the game in it's entirety? Not just the particular and unique access parameters for that copy of Portal 2 but everything associated with it? What about user game data stored on Steam's servers? Do I own that data?

I would defer to the more on-the-ball community members like Dexter11 to clarify the EU court's position on these types of points.

Well, first of all, who would want to sue Valve? What have they done or plan to do that warrants a lawsuit against them?

Nothing.

Hell, I don't think even EA has done anything worth suing over.
Ok, well, maybe if you were banned from playing games you payed for already because a moderator-bot X-9000 misread something you posted on their forums and banned you, but I'm sure they fix that kind of thing when it happens.

I think one of the very reasons that Valve has built such a supportive fanbase for Steam (a digital storefront) is that they have been willing to bend the letter of their TOS/EULA in favor of individual consumers. For example, Steam's official policy is that once you receive your license you have foregone the right for a refund. However, when you send an inquiry to their customer support regarding refunds for buggy software or some other appreciable cause you will find that they are willing to judge the merits of the request on an individual basis and frequently provides full refunds. Check out the new Ghost Recon boards for examples of this type of behavior.

The goodwill that so many on this board has condemned as gullibility is actually well deserved. Valve, as a company, has demonstrated (as well as any corporation can) that they are willing be consumer-centered. Strangely enough, I think one of the reasons I have come to love Valve is because they embody Interplay's old tagline: "By Gamers, For Gamers"

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Unless the terms of service involve me donating my organs to them at a time of their convenience I don't really care.

Spoiler: Apathetic Butterfly is apathetic.

There is also some Origin guy somewhere looking at all the cat pics I have on my PC.

That Butterfly doesn't look too apathetic. It looks like he has just seen something that he cannot unsee and is in a terrified stupor over it. I mean look at its eyes. When I look into those eyes I hear "I've seen some things and I wouldn't recommend them".

What has been seen cannot be unseen!

Protip: If you are going to have an operation don't look it up on Youtube. It did not in any way make me feel better. D:

Doesn't matter, people will still use and vehemently defend Steam because they're not too bright.

"OH MY GOD! THIS GAME I DIDN'T NEED IS ON SALE! STEAM IS DA BOMB!"

But..but... I need all the games. :<

 

[Lunar Templar]

so .....

you don't want to agree to the ToS, but wanna keep using steam? and whats this non sense about a refund? what makes you thing you deserve a refund because you made an active choice to discontinue using they're service?

 

[Epona]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

They aren't taking them away. They are saying you can't use their service if you don't agree to their service terms. And yes, every company does that if they have TOS and you don't agree to them.

If I don't agree to the next PSN EULA, will my games stop working?

Any games that require you to use the PSN won't work and you won't be able to access the PSN network.

So no, my games won't stop working.

 

[Yopaz]

I find it very harsh that you'll lose access permanently if you disagree, but I'm not really outraged about the change. I have no plans to sue Valve and seeing as most lawsuits against big corporations are frivolous and can usually be blamed on the stupidity of the consumer I can understand why Valve, Sony and EA are doing this. It doesn't even change much because the law trumps ToS in the first place.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Its funny how people used to uphold Steam and Valve as paragons of the industry and the saviors of DD, but now because you have to agree not to their terms on how their service to you is run (at no extra fee beyond initial payments to store your titles and download them AT WILL) people are going to instantly turn on them, as seems to be the case.
I personally hold nothing against a company attempting to protect themselves from (mostly) frivolous lawsuits that tie up funds that otherwise go towards... I don't know, paying employees and keeping them employed? Developing games and providing awesome discounts on games on their DD platform? Maybe?
Lawsuits are so petty for the most part.

 

[Zoomy]

To think, the only people who'd terminate their account because of this change are the type of people who read EULA's. Those types tend to care about the law, and thus know it's really not that enforceable. Besides that, if you're at the point of bringing a lawsuit against Valve, then you've probably lost your account already.

To be honest, while I'm annoyed whenever any company tries to piss on consumer rights, with Valve I don't care for one simple reason; I rarely buy from Steam. Out of my entire Steam library, there's only like three games I bought from Steam. Since I waited until the sales, the total cost of the three is like £8. Everything else I bought retail and was forced to add to Steam. So, yeah, take my games Valve. I've got a big pile of boxes proving I bought them, I'll just pirate them again.

I wish more people took this attitude. Problem is, it seems a lot of people are all "ooh, bargains!" without any thought to the long-term consequences of their purchases. All empires must fall, and Steam is no exception. When that day comes (and it will), there's going to be a lot of angry people out there who not only can't access their games, but might have difficulty proving they bought them in the first place.

 

[Rtoip]

I'm not defending Valve on this and I'm against changing agreements and limiting the costumer rights (it's a slippery slope), but I have few things to say about this:

1. What they are going to do if you break the ToS, they can only block your account. I don't see myself suing valve unless Steam stops working (and they don't give any compensation) anyway and then losing access to account is not an issue.

2. I'm not much into law really, but is it actually legal and/or enforceable in any country ? 'Coz my common sense tells me otherwise.
ToS and EULA were brought into question a few times already in several countries (we are not all living in america you know;; for some reason Rammstein came to my mind for a second) and apparently lawyers claim that clicking "I Agree" button doesn't constitute a legally binding contact.

So unless Valve tries to push addition changes I wouldn't panic just right now.

 

[w00tage]

I keep hopping into this conversations late and want to address points from the first page ><

So, I bet this has been addressed, but Steam does not (to the best of my limited understanding) sell you video games. Steam is selling you access to video games. You do not own any digitally downloaded games. The one exception to this may be GoG (edit: in reading through the comments it seems posters have cited other services that don't as well). Maybe Stardock, but I doubt it.

When you turn off your Steam account you are revoking your right to access those games.

The question remains, however, whether or not Valve, EA, GoG, or any other digital distributor is within their rights to use this business model. Currently in Europe there was a Court ruling that customers have the legal privilege of reselling digitally distributed software. This could, potentially, challenge the whole concept of the digital distribution model. Does this mean that in Europe when you purchase a digital license you "own" the license - i.e. if I were to sell you my Steam downloaded version of Portal 2 for $5 am I selling [/b] you the ownership of the access to that game? Or does it mean that by purchasing and downloading a game you own that copy of the game in it's entirety? Not just the particular and unique access parameters for that copy of Portal 2 but everything associated with it? What about user game data stored on Steam's servers? Do I own that data?

I would defer to the more on-the-ball community members like Dexter11 to clarify the EU court's position on these types of points.



I think one of the very reasons that Valve has built such a supportive fanbase for Steam (a digital storefront) is that they have been willing to bend the letter of their TOS/EULA in favor of individual consumers. For example, Steam's official policy is that once you receive your license you have foregone the right for a refund. However, when you send an inquiry to their customer support regarding refunds for buggy software or some other appreciable cause you will find that they are willing to judge the merits of the request on an individual basis and frequently provides full refunds. Check out the new Ghost Recon boards for examples of this type of behavior.

The goodwill that so many on this board has condemned as gullibility is actually well deserved. Valve, as a company, has demonstrated (as well as any corporation can) that they are willing be consumer-centered. Strangely enough, I think one of the reasons I have come to love Valve is because they embody Interplay's old tagline: "By Gamers, For Gamers"

This is the heart of the matter here. Is it legal for a company to sell what they're selling, in the way that they're selling it?

This isn't a trivial issue. Any ruling for or against any company doing digital distribution affects all companies doing it.

As I see it, the matter rests on whether the company can create or buy a product, and then give you not just access to it, but the actual files to reside on your computer, without that counting as transfer of a product. The EULA doesn't matter if the act of conveyance - the download - invokes property rights for the consumer.

The reason this hasn't come up before is simple - nobody wanted to sue over it. The individual sale wasn't big enough for a company to do anything about, and individual people haven't the money to take it to court.

This is why Valve's EULA provision specifically excludes class-action suits, which are specifically designed to let "the little guy" gang up on big companies that are doing harm. I would argue, and hope the courts agree, that the right to participate in class-action suits is a constitutional one covered under the right to freedom of assembly. If you can gather together to protest or lobby the government, you should be able to gather together to file a lawsuit, and no contractual agreement should be allowed to prevent you from doing that.

 

[Epona]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

They aren't taking them away. They are saying you can't use their service if you don't agree to their service terms. And yes, every company does that if they have TOS and you don't agree to them.

If I don't agree to the next PSN EULA, will my games stop working?

Any games that require you to use the PSN won't work and you won't be able to access the PSN network.

So no, my games won't stop working.

So no, your games from them aren't a service. They were a retail sale of merchandise.

People, is it really that hard to understand the difference between signing a service contract and signing a purchase or licensing contract?

I view my Steam games the same as I view downloadable games from PSN. I BOUGHT them.

 

[lacktheknack]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

They aren't taking them away. They are saying you can't use their service if you don't agree to their service terms. And yes, every company does that if they have TOS and you don't agree to them.

If I don't agree to the next PSN EULA, will my games stop working?

Any games that require you to use the PSN won't work and you won't be able to access the PSN network.

So no, my games won't stop working.

So no, your games from them aren't a service. They were a retail sale of merchandise.

People, is it really that hard to understand the difference between signing a service contract and signing a purchase or licensing contract?

I view my Steam games the same as I view downloadable games from PSN. I BOUGHT them.

Apparently, you didn't read the ToS very well.

 

[MysticToast]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

They aren't taking them away. They are saying you can't use their service if you don't agree to their service terms. And yes, every company does that if they have TOS and you don't agree to them.

If I don't agree to the next PSN EULA, will my games stop working?

Any games that require you to use the PSN won't work and you won't be able to access the PSN network.

So no, my games won't stop working.

So no, your games from them aren't a service. They were a retail sale of merchandise.

People, is it really that hard to understand the difference between signing a service contract and signing a purchase or licensing contract?

I view my Steam games the same as I view downloadable games from PSN. I BOUGHT them.

That's not how Steam views it. Well, it is and it isn't. Yes, you bought them, but you bought them on Valve's platform to be used on Valve's platform. To Valve, you pretty much bought real estate on Steam.

 

[Epona]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

They aren't taking them away. They are saying you can't use their service if you don't agree to their service terms. And yes, every company does that if they have TOS and you don't agree to them.

If I don't agree to the next PSN EULA, will my games stop working?

Any games that require you to use the PSN won't work and you won't be able to access the PSN network.

So no, my games won't stop working.

So no, your games from them aren't a service. They were a retail sale of merchandise.

People, is it really that hard to understand the difference between signing a service contract and signing a purchase or licensing contract?

I view my Steam games the same as I view downloadable games from PSN. I BOUGHT them.

Apparently, you didn't read the ToS very well.

Apparently I don't recognize the claim that I am only renting my games from Steam. I PURCHASED them, I didn't RENT them and I didn't SUBSCRIBE to them.

I patiently await a court to rule that digital games are bought and owned.

 

[Zoomy]

Apparently I don't recognize the claim that I am only renting my games from Steam. I PURCHASED them, I didn't RENT them and I didn't SUBSCRIBE to them.

I patiently await a court to rule that digital games are bought and owned.

Well there's this: http://gamepolitics.com/2012/07/03/european-court-justice-ruling-digital-games-can-be-resold

Close enough I'd say.

 

[Epona]

Apparently I don't recognize the claim that I am only renting my games from Steam. I PURCHASED them, I didn't RENT them and I didn't SUBSCRIBE to them.

I patiently await a court to rule that digital games are bought and owned.

Well there's this: http://gamepolitics.com/2012/07/03/european-court-justice-ruling-digital-games-can-be-resold

Close enough I'd say.

Yeah, I am waiting for that to come to the US and I believe that it will sooner or later. Sooner I hope. People who accept the idea that they don't own their games have already been defeated.

 

[The Lunatic]

This doesn't affect me enough to make me reconsider my use of steam at the present moment in time.

I do hope they listen to people on this, mostly to ensure a good relationship with consumers.

 

[Jmp_man]

Question. How much exposure to gaming sites have you for the past three or more years. Now days almost every non-indie new release has a form of online DRM even if you have the CD. Some games have a code you have to input. Steam and Origin are like that code, except that no code has to be in putted. They check your computer every time and you can't play a game without the program running.

OT: So they are changing their ToS. Does Valve have a lot of class action law suits against them? I mean they provide great service and from what I've heard their customer support is very good. I can't see them being sued for millions often. I mean I can understand Sony after the PSN outage last summer. But Valve seems to be pretty good about this stuff.

Hmmmm... I still don't know.
I just got a couple of games on CD about 3 months back (Baldurs Gate 1-2 and such) I didn't need to get permission from an outside service to play those games though... On the other hand though I was just saying that it still seams silly to be bound to Steam when other DRM free options or even integrated DRM is available... just makes me wonder why the CD doesn't allow you to, you know, play off the CD?

Also I haven't played Skyrim yet so I guess I was really just asking a question instead of making a statement. Sorry.

Edit: sniping quotes for length

Edit2: Modified for clarity

 

[Epona]

http://wegotthiscovered.com/news/valve-accept-steam-subscriber-agreement-disable-account/

So if you disagree.

That's how EVERY online service works.

I already know that I'm just posting news for people to disccuss about.

Help me understand...what is the discussion value of a company using the identical process of every other company?

Maybe you could add some discussion yourself to explain what it is you expect people to discuss. This seems a lot like "the sky is blue...discuss".

Does every other company take away what you have already paid for?

They aren't taking them away. They are saying you can't use their service if you don't agree to their service terms. And yes, every company does that if they have TOS and you don't agree to them.

If I don't agree to the next PSN EULA, will my games stop working?

Any games that require you to use the PSN won't work and you won't be able to access the PSN network.

So no, my games won't stop working.

So no, your games from them aren't a service. They were a retail sale of merchandise.

People, is it really that hard to understand the difference between signing a service contract and signing a purchase or licensing contract?

I view my Steam games the same as I view downloadable games from PSN. I BOUGHT them.

You may VIEW it that way, but that's not the contract you agreed to. The other party isn't responsible for you not understanding that you were in fact buying a service, not a product. You, according to the contract you agreed to, did not buy those Steam games.

Sorry, I simply don't accept that. The process for buying a game is Add to Cart--> Purchase for Myself.

Nothing about a subscription or rental in there. OnLive is a subscription service.