Active combat/real physics in an MMO.

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

There's Spiral knights...which is essentially Legend of Zelda: four Swords....But online.

 

[Lawnmooer]

Well, if I think off the top of my head:

CoX (City of Heroes + City of Vilains) does not have auto-attacks, you need to keep attacking with whatever abilities you have (Though managing Endurance makes low levels slow and makes high levels "Just spam as many of your strongest attacks you can while making it seemless attack chain (Due to animation times that you cannot move in, cooldowns on every ability and the amount of endurance you use and regen)" this doesn't comply to the "WoW" style auto-attack and bash abilities, since you need to manage your abilities and also select them (Instead of the WoW style pick a class and get all their stuff by leveling up)

DDO (Dungeons and Dragons: Online) your auto-attacks are triggered by clicking the left mouse button (Or holding it down) you need to move towards your target and follow them (Especially Kobolds... Fricken Kobolds... Stay still damnit!) you do get some abilities that you can use, but some of them cannot be used during an auto-attack (Meaning you either stop for a short while or time it in-between slices) you can also roll out of the way of ray spells provided your tumble skill is high enough for you to be able to roll (Needs to be at least 1 after armour checks)

Global Agenda, spouted off as a MMO (Not that anyone playing it would agree since it plays more like an FPS with a fancy lobby) is an over the shoulder shooter. You get a couple of abilities you can use (Which are more like WoW's Cooldowns rather than actual combat abilities) the rest of it is left mouse and right mouse (For primary fire/secondary fire. Or in the case of melee attack/block)

If you are going to complain about all MMO's being WoW clones, try to actually look for non-WoW clones...

 

[Drizzitdude]

also I havent played City of Heroes/villains and no one I know plays it or talks about it so I don't have a solid opinion on it to work from.

That's exactly my point.
The reason you're only seeing MMORPGs with the standard fighting system is because you're only looking at the great big ones built to be WoW rip-offs in an attempt to grab some of their overwhelming pie.

Go out of your way to look at the lesser known ones, with settings other than simple fantasy, and you'll find plenty of different combat systems.

So you seem to think i was only thinking of major titles when Italked about such example as vindictus and Tera? Which few people have heard of (well tera got more hype since this months game informer). I apologize for not knowing information on a game that neither me nor my large group of PC gaming friends have played nor talked about, also I revised the OP to mention I was talking about MMORPG's/fantasy in general which would leave games such as global agenda, fallen earth and other such out.

Well, if I think off the top of my head:

CoX (City of Heroes + City of Vilains) does not have auto-attacks, you need to keep attacking with whatever abilities you have (Though managing Endurance makes low levels slow and makes high levels "Just spam as many of your strongest attacks you can while making it seemless attack chain (Due to animation times that you cannot move in, cooldowns on every ability and the amount of endurance you use and regen)" this doesn't comply to the "WoW" style auto-attack and bash abilities, since you need to manage your abilities and also select them (Instead of the WoW style pick a class and get all their stuff by leveling up)

DDO (Dungeons and Dragons: Online) your auto-attacks are triggered by clicking the left mouse button (Or holding it down) you need to move towards your target and follow them (Especially Kobolds... Fricken Kobolds... Stay still damnit!) you do get some abilities that you can use, but some of them cannot be used during an auto-attack (Meaning you either stop for a short while or time it in-between slices) you can also roll out of the way of ray spells provided your tumble skill is high enough for you to be able to roll (Needs to be at least 1 after armour checks)

Global Agenda, spouted off as a MMO (Not that anyone playing it would agree since it plays more like an FPS with a fancy lobby) is an over the shoulder shooter. You get a couple of abilities you can use (Which are more like WoW's Cooldowns rather than actual combat abilities) the rest of it is left mouse and right mouse (For primary fire/secondary fire. Or in the case of melee attack/block)

If you are going to complain about all MMO's being WoW clones, try to actually look for non-WoW clones...

Once again I apoligize for my earlier generalization about mmos when really I was referring to MMORPGs/fantasy games. I have added a note at the end to specify this. And I was not stating all mmos are wow clones but that the majority of them in fact ARE. Hell just look at allods and SW:TOR those games are copyong wow shamelessly.

DDO Online: While I have played DDO online and I did like the fact you had to actively swing your weapon what ruined it for me was that its hits still ran off hidden dice rolls. (which isn't surprising considering it IS based off D&D) I mean iot was a decent game, having the dungeonmaster/narrator talk to in the dungeon was pretty badass but it once again didnt have a real physics/collision engine. It was a decent game though and I got a little bit into it before I decided to was to much of a grind and the 'instanced areas outside towns' thing kinda reminded me too much of guild wars 1.

Believe me I spend all day at least twice a month checking up on anything new that pops up on mmohut.

 

[Drizzitdude]

But still thats not to say the that casual gamers and a more dynamic gameplay option aren't compaticle. Just imagine fables take on dynamic combat. Sure you could get through the entire area by being a total pro time your blocks, dodges, floruishes just right and just being a straight up badass but thats not to say a more casual gamer couldn't pick the game up and just button mash their way to victory or spend most of the time just exploring the enviroment/doing missions.

Also, you want a physics engine, and you want the ability to have it where you swing your sword and it hits everything you swing at. Well, I hate to break this to you, but trying that means that either A. the swing was so shallow that it barely scratches them, or B. it hits the first target and then stops.. because that's called Newton's law.

I love it when this happens. When a person PERFECTLY understands the point someone is trying to get across, but for arguments sake picks at every little detail of their statement. You knew exactly what I meant by a physics/collision system, yet you decided to nitpick at my wording of it.

And on the topic of casual gamers. IF we talking about high end pve missions, why would you even bring casual gamers up? when you are in a raid and someone isn't doing their job as can be expected of them one of two things will happen.

The first being: They will be kicked and find someone better

The second: The raid will ignore it and either succeed despite the decreased lack in performance or wipe. Same would happen in active situation, if someone didn't do their job as well as expected in a high end boss battle/raid you cn expect they will either fail or be carried by their teammates. So what was the point of bringing that up? When you said casual I thought you more referring to the people who did mostly quests for fun, explored the wolrd or interacted with the other players by getting drunk in dalaran Just because the combat system is different doesn't stop people from doing these things, its about how much effort the devolopers went into making the game world and allowing people to do what they want.

 

[Gleem]

And on the topic of casual gamers. IF we talking about high end pve missions, why would you even bring casual gamers up?

Okay, you -do- realize that 90% of an MMO is end-game content, yeah? And you do realize that when casual players are unable to do even the most basic of endgame content simply because of basic mechanics involved in content they get rather upset. And that getting upset over such a fundamentally basic part of the game means that they're likely to quit. And that the casual fanbase leaving results in a new game falling apart. That's why I brought it up. The only hardcore-tailored mmo I can think of that's survived is FFXI. Which is now dead because they screwed all their players over by becoming a failed attempt of WoW.

Also, it isn't "nitpicking" when there's a glaring fundamental flaw with the combination of your ideal combat system having real physics and collision. You're saying the RPG equivalent of, "I want my FPS games to be somewhat realistic, like when I shoot my gun at a guy the bullets hit all the guys behind him too." Which is possible, if you're shooting with a damn .50 Cal. Just like your sword idea is possible if you have the strength of a Titan, or the enemies are completely unarmored, which is unlikely.

 

[tunderball]

OP- I think DC: Universe Online has a very similar combat system to what you described. It looked pretty cool too an action MMO, sadly however I never got round to playing it and I haven't heard a wisper about it since its release.

 

[Twad]

What about Planetside?

Anyway. The reason i think we dont see more of that active combat model is because it seriously increase the ammount of data the server have to receive and send, increasing lag a whole lot, i guess.

 

[Worgen]

it sounds like guildwars 2 is going to have much more active combat

 

[D-Pad]

It might be the hype in me, but Guild Wars 2 looks like it has a pretty good combat system.

In terms of ranged classes having to aim, that could piss a lot of people off, especially in a fight where the best option is to kite the boss. In Oblivion you had to aim spells like the Pyroball, which was to me annoying. I'd rather focus on taking these guys down rather than "Oop, I missed. Health is low now, could have killed him."

But really I want to see bullets and arrows move at the speed that bullets and arrows move. Not WoW's super slow little tracking missiles. That always annoyed me.

 

[empa]

Real time combat in MMO's? i know a couple.

Mortal Online and Darkfall are the RPG'ish mmos

Other than that theres Planetside 2 thats coming out and WW2 online.

 

[Akytalusia]

DDO has active combat, give that one a try. it's awesome.

 

[Lenvoran]

DDO has active combat, give that one a try. it's awesome.

...Doesn't DDO use the D20 system? If so, then that's basically the opposite of what the OP wanted because that's random-number-tastic.

 

[Zantos]

That said, if I've got my numbers right, there will only be about 0.13 seconds of latency if data is sent back and forth between a server and a client on opposite sides of the world... if they have an uninterrupted fiber-optic connection.

Technically yes, the numbers are right, however when I was looking at delays in satellite feeds most of the lag was coming from the endpoints in the decrypting, analysing, encrypting, re-sending, repeat rather than the actual transit times. I'd imagine it's the same case for fibre optics.

OT: Here's one to bring to the table (at least, I haven't seen anyone else mention it), a lot of people really like the stat based hit percentage stuff. I was told by people on these very forums that RPG combat should have nothing to do with your skill and should all be about the stat building you do. Which to me is boring as hell and I'd quite like a more involved combat system if it was possible, but if the system has a big following then it's likely to stay.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Is it just me or does it seem like there is a sever lack of MMOs that actually use a combat system that wasn't completely ripped off from wow? I mean honestly, World of Warcraft is a great game, I love it. The dungeon finder, the huge open world, distinctive class diveristy, auction house,the holy trinity, all of these are elements that WoW brought into the norm for MMO's yet I honestly think that it is not the big all powerful skygod everyone seems to think of it as.

Yet with all the good that I witness in a game like wow there is still one thing that truly bothers me. The combat system/physics engine. Lets be honest in WoW (and so called 'wow clones') all we really do is watch our character autoattack while we use skills every now in then. It doesn't seem very active and to be honest I don't think any of us have ever had the feeling of there being weight behind our blows with slashes or spells. It just seems to phase through the enemy as if they were insubstantial, the only real indicator of damage being done is the number you see flying up and the enemies health being reduced.

When I first played 'Fable' and 'Fable: The Lost Chapters' all those years ago one giant fact hit me, the game had an EXCELLENT combat system. It existed in a realm above other rpgs for the simple fact your ACTIVELY controlled your characters actions. Every slash, spell, block or roll everything had weight to it. When you hit an enemy they reacted now wouldn't this be great in an mmo? Where instead of the game just rolling off of hidden dice rolls it, would exist in that realm where if I slash my sword, anything caught in that slash will be hurt by it? A realm where if I see a boss swinging a meat cleaver in my direction I could attempt to roll out of the way or block it to nullify a percent of the damage and if I acted like I do in wow and simply stood there and took it (I tank) there would be consequences?

I mean really how much fun is it for a DPS in wow? As a Tank I know the extent of my fun mostly revolves in throwing down consecration and watching all the enemies attack the most armored target for no apparent reason while the dps wails on them, which is, well not fun at all. I mean there is very little work done on my part what about you guys? All you have to do is just use your rotation without having any fear of something bad happening to you provided I do my job, doesn't sound very exciting. And what about the healer? You get to stand still and stare at MY health bar, wooo, fun.

It just seems to me that a game with a more active combat with be a great addition to MMOS everywhere so why hasn't anyone REALLY tried it yet? Why hasn't there been, essentially a fable (one and TLC not any of that 2-3 rubbish) like mmo? Are devolopers just too scard to attempt something new?

The only games I have ever seen with a combat system even somewhat like I described are as follows

1: Vindictus: has a pretty damn good combat mechanic, but it would appear because of this fact there is a sever lack in everything else with the game being extreamly linear and short as well as having only one city. Also most characters had the ability to kill enemies in ear one hit and an enemy managing to hit the player dit little to no damage. This did not only give defensive skills (what little there was) no purpose but also made the tank class pretty redundant as well.

2: Tera: So far this game is lookling decent. It seems to have something similar to what I have described though I have not sen as much gameplay that would allow me to formulate a good opinion on it though the gameinformer article seems impressed. Also it seems to suffer from the same curse as all Korean made game in the sense that enemeis just take way to many hits. Why it may feel lie your blwos have weight to them when our greatsword sends an enenmy flying back it DOESN'T feel this way when they have so much health it didn't seem to affect them. Then again the footage I saw may have had the player facing higher level enemies so I will have to wait to find out more about the game.

3: Aion: the only reason I put this in heare is because the chain skills make the combat more interesting but honestly it IS just a wow clone, if your looking for something different don't get try this.

4: Age of Conan: Pretty damn good active combat system requires players to actually use a series of keys in order to use attacks, blocks, and skills. Can't believe I forgot this one. Thanks to Ghostwise

/EDIT/NOTE: guys lets keep the conversation restricted to mostly MMORPG's. We are all aware there are a few goof MMOFPS out there and it is becoming more common so lets stick with the RPG/ feeling weight with your hit issue

That would be awesome as a Druid in WoW I have noticed that I get screwed in PVP because I have to stand still to cast spells where Melee classes can jump around me constantly attacking. Also DPS gets really boring in raids, I just go through my cycle over and over and over nothing really changes at all.

 

[VladG]

There are 2 main reasons in my opinion why most MMOs stick to this formula and why very few try (and mostly fail) to innovate:

1) Performance issues: Both hardware and connection related, in an action-oriented MMO based on hitbox and reflex combat ANY latency whatsoever would TOTALLY destroy the game. Any online FPS player can tell you that latency is your worst enemy, but online FPS games work because they have a very low number of players on a server (dozens at best compared to thousands in a MMO).
Servers that could host so many players and offer the extreme performance needed would be very expensive, and you would need to localize them heavily given that the average internet connection isn't that great.

Also on the performance issue, a hitbox/reflex game needs a much better engine (and so one that would be more resource-hungry) WoW is, even with the low-end, outdated graphics, quite resource hungry. A reflex/hitbox MMO that looks even halfway decent would require top-of-the-range rigs to run (as any performance drop would make the game unplayable) and so it would only cater to the rather few who can afford high-end PCs and very expensive internet connections.

2) WoW-ish "dice-roll" auto combat and progressive difficulty and content progression caters well for both casual and hardcore players. Casuals can enjoy the game at a fairly relaxed pace, without having their fingers dance on the keyboard like a spider on cocaine, while hardcore games still get a good challenge out of the high-tier raids and heroics. This is also down to good design, the combat alone may be quite unchallenging, but various fight mechanics still demand quick reflexes and good attention to compensate for the relaxed static combat.

A hitbox/reflex game would again alienate many of the more casual players interested more in socializing, exploring, questing, etc. And as a player who has spent some time in RP and social guilds, I can say there are more of those than there are hardcore raiders around.


Basically the reason a game like the one you'd like hasn't been made yet (or at least not a single half-decent one) is because it will most likely be a great financial flop, catering to a very restricted fan base. Unfortunately MMOs are expensive to make and to maintain and no developer can take major risks anymore.

Project Titan is coming though, and they claim it will be very different from WoW and cater to a different fan base. So who knows, you might just get your wish, and I can think of no company who has a better chance to pull it off than Blizzard.

But still thats not to say the that casual gamers and a more dynamic gameplay option aren't compaticle. Just imagine fables take on dynamic combat. Sure you could get through the entire area by being a total pro time your blocks, dodges, floruishes just right and just being a straight up badass but thats not to say a more casual gamer couldn't pick the game up and just button mash their way to victory or spend most of the time just exploring the envoroment/doing missions.

I think I ak going to try to make this happen once I finish taking my computer programming and graphic design courses. which will in about 4 years. and by then hopefully I could secure some funding and technology will have improved enough to make latency not such an issue.

I'll chime in with another important contributor:

Physics and physical distance.

Latency, the time it takes for any amount of data to move between the client and the host. To keep it simple: unless everyone in the world is guaranteed a fiber-optic Internet connection, there is going to be noticeable lag in any "active" combat system, and with so many players to take into account and compensate for the lag will be quite terrible unless the players are only allowed to play against people in their own or closely surrounding countries.

That said, if I've got my numbers right, there will only be about 0.13 seconds of latency if data is sent back and forth between a server and a client on opposite sides of the world... if they have an uninterrupted fiber-optic connection.

you heard the man. everyone, time to upgrade, like HARDCORE supercereal hard to pull off upgrade xD

No, not entirely incompatible, but I feel the Fable example is a rather poor one. I got through the game by basically mashing the button myself, but that's because it's more than enough. There is no need to be better than that. Also button mashing is still active and quite intense (if unchallenging). I know plenty of wow players that play only with their mouse (despicable sub-humans that they are), and at a very relaxed pace. They kill a mob here, finish a quest there, gather a herb over there. It's all very sedate for them, and that's how they like it. Again, it's not impossible to have this in a more action oriented MMO, but it would certainly appeal to fewer people. In the end I think it would be down to a balancing act, a sort of mash between the two play stiles that would have the biggest chance of being done nowadays.

As for the fiber wire argument, I think the speed of the signal in a fiber-wire connection and the speed on a regular connection is exactly the same (electricity propagates at the speed of light). In fact it might be a bit slower since in a fiber-optic wire the light has to bounce around, an as such would make for a far longer travel distance than the lenght of the wire itself. The problem difference between the 2 is actually bandwidth, fiber-optic being far superior.
Developers now bypass the travel distance latency by having numerous local servers running all over the world. So if you play WoW for example, not everyone is connected to a massive server hub in California, but each realm has it's own local servers spread across the region. It's certainly a more expensive option than one big data centre, but it's necessary.

 

[Maze1125]

What about Planetside?

He only wants to consider traditional RPG fantasy MMOs, and then wonders why they all have the traditional RPG fantasy combat system.

 

[ultrachicken]

That isn't a problm with people with a decent rig/connection which is the majority of POC gamers. Are we supposed to stop making games better because someone is still using a computer from 06? Should the entire industry just halt?

What you don't seem to realize is that a TON of the revenue WoW gets comes from people with shitty computers. By making your MMO accessible only to the higher echelons of gaming rigs you severely restrict your market, and therefore you make less money. From a business's perspective, there really isn't a reason to make less money. Also, what gave you the idea that complex gameplay mechanics are what make games better? Simple, yet refined gameplay that is continually polished can be just as great as the games that have dodging and showing enemies getting sliced to pieces.

 

[Continuity]

snip

This is the greatest travesty of modern gaming, at least IMO... all the trigger happy, adrenaline twitching, attention span deficient kids who insist on every game in every genre having action based combat.

/rant

RPG is not about action based combat, its occasionally cool when an RPG has this sort of combat as it makes a change (borderlands for e.g.)... but that is not pure genre RPG, its a hybrid. RPG is very much not about combat (in the action sense at least)... if you don't like that then don't play them... don't try and change the games to suit your taste and leave the rest of us with nothing to play.

gameplay != combat

Besides, there are plenty of all sorts of games out there... if you're not playing one that you like don't sit there complaining about the bits you don't like... just go an look for something that suits your tastes.. it does exist. We've got to the point now where there are so many games in so many genre and subgenre that everyone is catered for.

 

[JediMB]

Technically yes, the numbers are right, however when I was looking at delays in satellite feeds most of the lag was coming from the endpoints in the decrypting, analysing, encrypting, re-sending, repeat rather than the actual transit times. I'd imagine it's the same case for fibre optics.

Yeah, after typing that up I realized that there were a bunch of factors I didn't take into account for my post. Something I haven't seen mentioned in my replies, for example, is that no Internet connections will ever go in a straight line from one point to another.

OT: Here's one to bring to the table (at least, I haven't seen anyone else mention it), a lot of people really like the stat based hit percentage stuff. I was told by people on these very forums that RPG combat should have nothing to do with your skill and should all be about the stat building you do. Which to me is boring as hell and I'd quite like a more involved combat system if it was possible, but if the system has a big following then it's likely to stay.

I agree on that player skill and creativity/improvisation need to be a deciding factor "even" in an RPG. As much as I can enjoy build-tweaking and such, the actual active gameplay needs to be fun and exciting too. An amount of skill and effort in both areas should be necessary to be truly successful.

 

[Drizzitdude]

What about Planetside?

He only wants to consider traditional RPG fantasy MMOs, and then wonders why they all have the traditional RPG fantasy combat system.

Fine your right xD I guess I will aknowledge this as mostly true. I AM indeed wondering why all fantasy rpgs have the same combat system in almost every game.

Anywho, onto the main post: The reason I decided to exclude MMOFPS games such as planetside and third persons such as global agenda is because there is no issue in this field so its not worth talking about improvement when there is obviously already new idea idea being tried out. So I decided to stick to the area where I consider it a problem.

And on the topic of casual gamers. IF we talking about high end pve missions, why would you even bring casual gamers up?

Okay, you -do- realize that 90% of an MMO is end-game content, yeah? And you do realize that when casual players are unable to do even the most basic of endgame content simply because of basic mechanics involved in content they get rather upset. And that getting upset over such a fundamentally basic part of the game means that they're likely to quit. And that the casual fanbase leaving results in a new game falling apart. That's why I brought it up. The only hardcore-tailored mmo I can think of that's survived is FFXI. Which is now dead because they screwed all their players over by becoming a failed attempt of WoW.

Also, it isn't "nitpicking" when there's a glaring fundamental flaw with the combination of your ideal combat system having real physics and collision. You're saying the RPG equivalent of, "I want my FPS games to be somewhat realistic, like when I shoot my gun at a guy the bullets hit all the guys behind him too." Which is possible, if you're shooting with a damn .50 Cal. Just like your sword idea is possible if you have the strength of a Titan, or the enemies are completely unarmored, which is unlikely.

Why is it people get so defensive (or seem to at least) when someones asks a simple question such as 'what exactly do you mean by ____?' Which in this case the blank was replaced with 'casual gamer'. Honestly, I wasn't attacking your statement (unlike SOME people on this thread xD) I was simply stating that just because a Game has more active/dynamic combat mechnics doesn't mean there wouldn't be other things to do as a casual gamer. Then I stated that it also depend on your idea of a casual gamer in this situation, do you mean casual as in just getting drunk in dalaran and gathering herbs all day? Or casual as in they do raids and other such things every once and while and can't exactly be expected to be good at it? Because whether your playing WoW or a game with a more dynamic combat system the fact is if you don't try in a raid/instance you can't exactly be expected to do well. It isn't at all as if the content is unavailable to them but just that it would be harder (which can be expected) with a lack of effort.

On the note of active physics and collision detection and all that fun junk we've been nitpicking at constantly throughout the thread I am simply going to state what both you and I knew I mean by the statement to simply drop the matter.

While I would love to see a better physics engine ine the game I also wan't proper collision detection for whatever the animation/attack my character did. If I slash my sword across and enemy and it slashes through him and OBVIOUSLY strikes the enemy next to him I would like to see two things happens.

First of all the enemy would reacted to getting hit, this could be done by having them get slightly knocked back (to being sent reeling or knocked back a large amount if it was hit with say, a two handed hammer') and have an apropriate animation to the fact they were just slashed.

Secondly I would like the enemy who was also caught in the blow to have to reacted similarly, I mean it's not like my weapon should just magically phase through an enemy I am not targeting right?

So there, that was what I meant when referring to the physics engine/collision detection. I was not refering to having it so everything acted 100% according to the laws of physics but simply adding the feeling to having weight behind your blows and feel like your actually slashing with sword or swimging a hammer/axe instead of realizing it was all just a animation to entertain you somewhat while you actually did ___ damage every ____ second(s).

I agree on that player skill and creativity/improvisation need to be a deciding factor "even" in an RPG. As much as I can enjoy build-tweaking and such, the actual active gameplay needs to be fun and exciting too. An amount of skill and effort in both areas should be necessary to be truly successful.

I completely agree. I mean when I say a game should have more dynamic combat I don't mean any less effort should be put into everything else.

snip

This is the greatest travesty of modern gaming, at least IMO... all the trigger happy, adrenaline twitching, attention span deficient kids who insist on every game in every genre having action based combat.

/rant

RPG is not about action based combat, its occasionally cool when an RPG has this sort of combat as it makes a change (borderlands for e.g.)... but that is not pure genre RPG, its a hybrid. RPG is very much not about combat (in the action sense at least)... if you don't like that then don't play them... don't try and change the games to suit your taste and leave the rest of us with nothing to play.

gameplay != combat

Besides, there are plenty of all sorts of games out there... if you're not playing one that you like don't sit there complaining about the bits you don't like... just go an look for something that suits your tastes.. it does exist. We've got to the point now where there are so many games in so many genre and subgenre that everyone is catered for.

All I am trying to say is that just because a game is an RPG doesn't mean we have to stick to the same old dungeon and dragon statsheet/diceroll model. That there can easily be more and better hybrids out there yet the fact people stick the same old formula somewhat frustrates me. Its not... I can't tink of a better way to put this, "moving forward?"

And as I said before I play and love WoW. I've played games like DDO, aions, allods, and all that and while they are good it just pains me to see that people are usually stuck with the same reused formula. Hell even the SW: TOR is going to be a shamelss wow clone ( and please everyone I don't want to hear "But the smuggler can use cover! It's totally dfifferent than wow now!" I mean woah! Hold the Phone! Innovation of the year folks!) look rpg's are good. I just wish we could get out of the mindset they all have to follow the same formula.

Also on a sidenote: It really pains me when people go into the whole 'RPGS are not about combat rant' as I have heard many times before. It shows people aren't getting the whole picture I am trying to convey, which is, sure an RPG may not be about combat but surely improving it couldn't hurt?
I mean look at Fable: TLC, that was one of my favorite games of all time in the way it merged action and RPG elements. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it had a pretty damn good idea and it pained me so much to see that idiot peter molyneux throw that basis away simply so you could interact with the lifeless AI by either dancing with them or holding their hand. With something like that Lionhead could have improved even further and possibly added more and more until it became the pinnavle of the hybrid between action and rpg's I dream of someday existing.


BTW: If you can find a game that suits my tastes as described I will give you this nickel I just found. Because believe me I've tried MANY times to find a game that can fuse RPG elements with a dynamic combat system. You can find what I found at least somewhat appealing in the OP