After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[RJ 17]

I just want to know why the Rebellion Resistance doesn't have it's own Death Star by now. They've had the plans for the fucker for 30 years now...you mean to tell me they couldn't have built one of their own by now? You know...just in case anybody wanted to...oh, I don't know...turn a planet into a star-devouring doomsday weapon that can obliterate other planets from half-way across the galaxy? Seems like having your own Death Star - a station that can destroy planets - would come in handy in case the remnants of the Empire decided to start acting up again.

Renegade for Life!

 

[DefunctTheory]

I don't thing we can hold Rey knowing more about the Falcon then Han does against her. Its explained why that is.

The Millennium Falcon had been sitting on Rey's junkyard for quite some time and had been tinkered with. Han did not know that but Rey, who lived there did.

Silence, person who paid attention, lest they use your knowledge of the movie against you and claim you're a Mary Sue.

In fairness, when Finn suggests using the Falcon as an escape vehicle, Rey calls it a piece of junk and thinks it's not worth their time. Someone who knows about the Falcon and it's capabilities would never say that. Now I know it's supposed to be a call back to Luke's line in the original films, but that was used to show his own ignorance and inexperience. Here it just comes off as characterization breaking when she immediately pilots the ship perfectly and repairs it with no difficulty.

The Falcon is a hunk of junk. It requires perpetual maintenance just to keep running, and is in a constant state of breakage. When it does work, it's magnificent. When it doesn't work, it nearly kills everyone.

Finn and Rey are in it for a grand total of 10 minutes before it almost kills them.

 

[happyninja42]

If I were to have it my way...

I'd make it so that Rey slowly becomes convinced that she's a Skywalker, but it's something that's never discussed with her by an actual Skywalker. She get's all pumped up about being some sort of prophetic badass, but then at the moment where everything comes together, Kylo/Snoke shoots her down and shows her she's just gutter trash with a lightsaber. In a moment of despair, Finn pumps her up by convincing her that it doesn't matter who her parents were, because she's awesome and she can fucking do this. Cue roflstomp fight where she smears the dark side under her heel.

But that's just me.

Oh I would totally be down for that too. I have no vested interest/need for her to be a Skywalker, I just think that's the route they're going to take in the narrative, to continue the Skywalker legacy. But I'm totally down for "nope, she's just someone else who is badass in the Force." It's why I'm rooting for Finn to be a Force user as well, because I'd like to see people who aren't Skywalkers being Force users again. Though I seem to be the only person who thinks Finn is a Force user. Oddly enough, the reasons people say he's not a Force user, match up really damn well with that "Mary Sue/Not Mary Sue" picture above, under the Luke category.

Things like "Finn got his ass kicked by Kylo Ren!" So did Luke the first time he fought Vader, and he actually had training. "Finn got his back cut off in the fight!" Luke got his hand cut off. "Finn was constantly fighting a defensive fight!" So did Luke against Vader. I just think it's going to be another reveal, sort of like what you hope to see from Rey, but with Finn. He's going to think he's been playing second chair to Rey this whole time, but will learn "No, you were both Awakened to the Force, you just didn't notice it." And then he's going to roflstomp stuff alongside her. That's my dream scenario. I just think, doing an entire promotional campaign, showing Finn wielding a saber, and then not have him be a Jedi, is just....odd, odd and very silly.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I just want to know why the Rebellion Resistance doesn't have it's own Death Star by now. They've had the plans for the fucker for 30 years now...you mean to tell me they couldn't have built one of their own by now? You know...just in case anybody wanted to...oh, I don't know...turn a planet into a star-devouring doomsday weapon that can obliterate other planets from half-way across the galaxy? Seems like having your own Death Star - a station that can destroy planets - would come in handy in case the remnants of the Empire decided to start acting up again.

Renegade for Life!

Disarmament treaty would really be turned on its ear if the NGR went and built a Death Star. What are they going to sell THAT as? A recycling center?

You're doing a bit of "hyping up" yourself LifeCharacter.

I thought that was rather the point. If one wants to ignore context, hand wave supporting events and cheerfully employ hyperbole, one can make virtually any character look ridiculous.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

If I were to have it my way...

I'd make it so that Rey slowly becomes convinced that she's a Skywalker, but it's something that's never discussed with her by an actual Skywalker. She get's all pumped up about being some sort of prophetic badass, but then at the moment where everything comes together, Kylo/Snoke shoots her down and shows her she's just gutter trash with a lightsaber. In a moment of despair, Finn pumps her up by convincing her that it doesn't matter who her parents were, because she's awesome and she can fucking do this. Cue roflstomp fight where she smears the dark side under her heel.

But that's just me.

Oh I would totally be down for that too. I have no vested interest/need for her to be a Skywalker, I just think that's the route they're going to take in the narrative, to continue the Skywalker legacy. But I'm totally down for "nope, she's just someone else who is badass in the Force." It's why I'm rooting for Finn to be a Force user as well, because I'd like to see people who aren't Skywalkers being Force users again. Though I seem to be the only person who thinks Finn is a Force user. Oddly enough, the reasons people say he's not a Force user, match up really damn well with that "Mary Sue/Not Mary Sue" picture above, under the Luke category.

Things like "Finn got his ass kicked by Kylo Ren!" So did Luke the first time he fought Vader, and he actually had training. "Finn got his back cut off in the fight!" Luke got his hand cut off. "Finn was constantly fighting a defensive fight!" So did Luke against Vader. I just think it's going to be another reveal, sort of like what you hope to see from Rey, but with Finn. He's going to think he's been playing second chair to Rey this whole time, but will learn "No, you were both Awakened to the Force, you just didn't notice it." And then he's going to roflstomp stuff alongside her. That's my dream scenario. I just think, doing an entire promotional campaign, showing Finn wielding a saber, and then not have him be a Jedi, is just....odd, odd and very silly.

You're not the only one to think/hope Finn is a force user, though I'm not in that group.

I hope Finn isn't a force user, because I like him how he is. A stormtrooper brought to heroism by friendship, bumbling his way to victory through the power of broism. I like the idea of him being kind of a Han Soloish figure, flying by the seat of his pants with just a blaster and luck on his side.

That being said, if he is a force user, I'd like it if he didn't become a proper Jedi. They've hinted that Leia will be getting more screen time in Episode 8, and that she'll be exploring the force. Perhaps it would be a neat split if while Rey and Luke are doing the typical Jedi thing...

Leia and Finn go on their own force journey, where they use some of it to their advantage (Being able to 'feel' things, letting it guide them) without going down the full blown, make-your-own lightsaber path.

I'm probably the only one here who's full engrossed by the Rebels show/books, but I'll use Kanaan, pre-reembrassing the Jedi way, as an example. He puts his lightsaber away, and only uses the force in the most trivial ways, as he gallivants around the galaxy, pretty much ignoring the force whenever able in favor of just punching, shooting, and in being, in general, a rougish fool as he wanders the cosmos.

 

[Austin Manning]

The Falcon is a hunk of junk. It requires perpetual maintenance just to keep running, and is in a constant state of breakage.

Perpetual maintenance isn't necessarily a sign of something being junk. Most complex vehicles (ships, aircraft, etc) are in states of perpetual maintenance because of the large number of moving parts in their design. Simple put: these things can easily break in small ways, which can be disastrous.

 

[RJ 17]

I just want to know why the Rebellion Resistance doesn't have it's own Death Star by now. They've had the plans for the fucker for 30 years now...you mean to tell me they couldn't have built one of their own by now? You know...just in case anybody wanted to...oh, I don't know...turn a planet into a star-devouring doomsday weapon that can obliterate other planets from half-way across the galaxy? Seems like having your own Death Star - a station that can destroy planets - would come in handy in case the remnants of the Empire decided to start acting up again.

Renegade for Life!

Disarmament treaty would really be turned on its ear if the NGR went and built a Death Star. What are they going to sell THAT as? A recycling center?

Well why not? Just tell everyone it's a gigantic garbage disposal, slap a giant clock onto the side of it, and oh yeah: it just happens to fire giant planet-exploding lasers, but that's just special effects for Rave Night!

Edit: Besides, that's the point of "fighting" this war through a proxy. It wouldn't be the Republic building this, oh no...it would be "The Resistance".

Plausible Deniability ftw! :3

 

[Frankster]

Meanwhile, Luke is the best pilot in the Rebellion who can survive a trench run and Darth Vader simply because he flew some speeder back home, blew up a giant superweapon by giving into the Force allowing him to make a shot no one else was able to make, and has no reason to be the least bit competent at any sort of combat or piloting. But I guess him being put upon makes all his achievements go away.

I remember people trying to push this new historical revision of Luke Skywalker being the best pilot in the rebellion last TFA thread I was in and wasn't buying it, and certainly ain't buying it now.

Let's rewatch the piloting sequences Luke is in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BkOVSFb2Zw (part 1 of 3 since could not find single vid of Hoth which is weird cos I swear I could before... Maybe im going senile)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSG3m4VNlo

Let's go through Luke's awesome moments shall we?:

Death Star Trench run:
-Almost CRASHES much to his team mate's distress. I feel this scene alone kinda undermines any best pilot theory one can have, he almost dies right there and then in the most stupid manner possible.
-Does not fly better or kill more then Biggs Darklighter who by contrast, IS the best pilot in that battle with Wedge or Garvin Dreis being the other better pilots (Wedge even saves Lukes ass at one point). The other rogues seem pretty solid too for the most part and it's hard to say if Luke is better then them, if he is then the difference isn't that great.
-Is only able to survive the trench run thanks to the sacrifice of his 2 buddies shielding him, and when you see Darth Vader locking on to his various targets, Biggs is the one that is actually flies in the most difficult pattern and it made sense that the now retconned EU at the time explained Darth Vader used his force powers to make a hax shot on what was the best pilot the rebels had. This might still be cannon for all I know.
- Uses Force ex machina to achieve what the other pilots couldn't, so in other words it wasn't because he was the best pilot, but because he was the one with force powers and had Obi Wan helping him from beyond to grave (use the force luke! trust your instincts! just before Luke actually does damage to the death star with some "lucky" shots).
Without Obi Wan Luke might not even have made it to the trench run in the first place, he would certainly have died to Vader since would have been no "the force is strong with this one" moment of distraction.
-Gets saved by Han since even with the force, Vader was about to kill him.

Ok lets go to Hoth then, surely we gonna see Luke at his best! Oh wait..
- Gets shot once, loses his copilot
- Gets shot a second time, is downed. End of Luke's piloting antics for that battle.
- Meanwhile Wedge does not get hit and his snowspeeder brings down an AT-AT.
-Yet somehow Luke is the best pilot here despite accomplishing 0 and gets shot down early within 5 minutes of the battle?
We see him being the badass on foot but I just can't see how anyone can get the idea Luke is a great pilot, let alone the best in the rebellion from this scene.

One movie left, if we are going to see Luke's piloting genius then it's going to be here..
-Looks determined as he slams on the brakes to suddenly fall behind the two chasing scout troopers and successfully guns one down. I think this is actually his best piloting feat without force assistance in the entire trilogy.
Woohoo Luke, way to go boy!
-However afterwards he fails to see an incoming tree in time and has to jump out, thus making that scout trooper the winner of that little duel by default but then Luke whips out the light saber and wins when on foot (why the scout didn't just keep going so as to warn the rest of the Imperials like one would expect is something that's always bugged me..Oh wait the Emperor knew they were coming..Hum still find it a bit silly but nvm, topic isn't about nitpicking scenes)

But honestly we all know who the best pilot in the entire setting is...Poe. He makes taking out 5 ties in a single pass look stupidly easy, it's a mystery why the resistance doesn't just unleash Poe by himself to face down entire fleets.
Or maybe that's how the rebellion won at Jahku and all the wreckage is in fact Poe's kills?

Oh also it wasn't a speeder, but a t-16 skyhopper: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper
And I remember last thread someone was telling me "oh but they just made that up after the films and they had no idea what a t-16 was" except you see Luke playing with a model of it in the first film. At least so the wiki link says, I'll be honest and admit I didn't remember that either or I'd have said as much in the last thread.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I remember people trying to push this new historical revision of Luke Skywalker being the best pilot in the rebellion last TFA thread I was in and wasn't buying it, and certainly ain't buying it now.

Luke was a very good pilot, but I recall the general thrust of those discussions being that Luke received the 'hero edit' despite naysayers suggesting this was impossible because a noisome alien demanded his seat at the cantina. You adequately demonstrate that here, noting his use of "Force Ex Machina" to destroy the Death Star, and noting that his speeder is shot down on Hoth...after which he pops out and single-handedly wrecks an AT-AT by lightsaber.

 

[Frankster]

I remember people trying to push this new historical revision of Luke Skywalker being the best pilot in the rebellion last TFA thread I was in and wasn't buying it, and certainly ain't buying it now.

Luke was a very good pilot, but I recall the general thrust of those discussions being that Luke received the 'hero edit' despite naysayers suggesting this was impossible because a noisome alien demanded his seat at the cantina. You adequately demonstrate that here, noting his use of "Force Ex Machina" to destroy the Death Star, and noting that his speeder is shot down on Hoth...after which he pops out and single-handedly wrecks an AT-AT by lightsaber.

I distinctly remember having to argue against the perception Luke was the best pilot and having to defend Wedge Antilles as my choice of a better pilot. We seem to have taken different things from that thread, perhaps you are remembering discussions with others where I was not involved yet? It was a big thread after all, TFA had just come out and we were all venting our raw impressions.

And yeh, outside the cockpit I am not disputing anything about Luke being OP (well I haven't bothered rewatching and analying hard enough to argue against this perception anyways, this is a battle I'm content not to fight). Inside the cockpit though?
Even "very good" pilot seems too much to me. I just listed his antics, and his best moments come from force ex machina, not his l33t piloting skills which really does not strike me as outstanding in any way, whereas with Wedge it does, you see him flying awesomely in all 3 films.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Even "very good" pilot seems too much to me. I just listed his antics, and his best moments come from force ex machina, not his l33t piloting skills which really does not strike me as outstanding in any way, whereas with Wedge it does, you see him flying awesomely in all 3 films.

I think you can make the argument Luke isn't necessarily an exceptional pilot, but at the absolute minimum he appears to be a highly competent natural. He's a highly competent natural at virtually everything he does, really, which is in keeping with what we see of Force users throughout the series, to say nothing of the moan-inducing Phantom Menace exposition sequence where we learn Jedi see into the future all the time.

 

[Erttheking]

She's a classic Hero(ine). I know fiction these days tends towards anti-heroes, but she's just Luke. Again. The term Mary Sue doesn't mean ANYTHING anymore because people interpret it as "good person who succeeds." Mary Sues are a LOT more than that, and typically just found in bad fan fiction. The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Luke was a good pilot, that's about it, in A New Hope. It wasn't until Return of the Jedi, the third of that trilogy, that he became a half decent force user.

Yet Rey appears to almost be at Luke's third film level in her first.

While I have no doubt that some of the complaints are coming from the mindset of "OMG it's because she's a woman", I would like to think that many are coming from the worry of just where they are going to take her power level in the following two films.

A good pilot who made a physically impossible shot, bragged about how shots that a veteran rebel pilot called impossible were actually easy, lasted longer against Vader than Wedge Antilles one of the most badass pilots in the rebellion, was able to fire fight against storm troopers who are built up to be major badasses, starts deflecting blaster bolts three seconds after he gets a lightsaber, flies a fighter that he has never been in before, matches Han in terms of kill count when escaping from the Death Star. I really don't see how she's that far above him, considering her achievements can't even hold a candle to his. She took out two TIE fighters. Luke took out the Death Star, avoiding getting fragged by Vader as he did, in a way that very heavily implied that the force was helping him.

Nah they're right, wanting female characters who have flaws in their personality and are more than 'girl power' is patronizing, sexist and misogynistic.


/sarcasm

Holy strawman Batman!

 

[Frankster]

Even "very good" pilot seems too much to me. I just listed his antics, and his best moments come from force ex machina, not his l33t piloting skills which really does not strike me as outstanding in any way, whereas with Wedge it does, you see him flying awesomely in all 3 films.

I think you can make the argument Luke isn't necessarily an exceptional pilot, but at the absolute minimum he appears to be a highly competent natural. He's a highly competent natural at virtually everything he does, really, which is in keeping with what we see of Force users throughout the series, to say nothing of the moan-inducing Phantom Menace exposition sequence where we learn Jedi see into the future all the time.

That seems a reasonable enough statement to agree with, Luke is definitely an all rounder for the most part, the only weaknesses I can think of is he doesn't start becoming proficient in melee (both with a light saber and without) until the start of the 2nd film, and he is very much a noob force user who needs Obi Wan to babysit him every step of the way, right up to the death star run, otherwise he seemed incapable of using the force by himself on a conscious level until the second film where he pulls the light saber from the snow.

Since this seems to segway into the Rey/Luke comparison some are bringing up, I think I'll arrive here at the same conclusion we arrived last time we had this chat (assuming I'm not confusing you with someone else)
TFA went by too damn fast that most probably missed the explanations given for Rey's abilities, or was outright just explained in the novels so you'd have to read supplementary material, or in the case of her natural force proficiency, might be explained by a later movie.

Whereas with Luke, all his abilities are shown and repeatedly highlighted in the films before he does them:
-Decent pilot? Mentions loving to fly his T-16, wanted to join the Imperial navy and was best friends with Biggs who was pretty much Luke minus the force powers so we had someone "normal" from Tatooine to compare him to and see he wasn't exceptional in this regard.
-Decent shot? You see Luke armed when traveling implying he is very much used to carrying weapons as part of his usual life style and he does mention shooting womp rats (so small, moving targets) as part of his childhood, so he grew up being used to shoot.
-Decent mechanic? You see him tinkering with droids and machines as part of his routine helping out at the moisture farm.
None of these are blink and you miss them moments and you are reminded of Luke's background several times partly because the film was slower paced and took greater time to introduce everyone, hence why Luke probably seemed more a natural character as opposed to a Sue'. Not that I'm implying Rey is by contrast, we have been through this before and I'm now gonna wait until the films with her are finished/I read some of the new EU stuff with her in it, before I speak on that one way or another.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...partly because the film was slower paced and took greater time to introduce everyone...

This to me is the most painful point of contrast between New Hope and its modern day doppleganger. While everyone castigates Force Awakens for aping Episode IV in overall structure, TFA had a lot more to do than New Hope did, and a roughly equivalent amount of time to do it in.

We have a 30 year time gap, so the film requires a lot more universe building than a 7th chapter would reasonably be expected to.

We have two protagonists to establish (Finn and Rey) vs one (Luke).

We have a primary antagonist who is a fully fledged character in his own right, technically bringing the "protagonist" count to a bewildering three.

We have a panoply of new supporting and ancillary characters on both sides of the ledger.

We have several returning characters all demanding a share of screen time, ranging from primary (Han Solo) to miniscule (R2-D2).

There were heaping spoonfuls of fan service and callbacks also eating small batches of screen time.

The best term I was able to apply to Force Awakens was "overstuffed". It's at once a soft reboot, the tent pole for a new trilogy and EU, and the continuation of an epic saga spanning 40 years of cinema. At four hours it would have had a ludicrous amount of ground to cover. At barely over two, sacrifices were going to have to be made. Unquestionably, New Hope is the better film at character development. Simply the existence of moments of quiet conversation or reflection give it a huge leg up in this regard. I think TFA does a better job with worse circumstances than it gets credit for, but there's no question it puts the audience in a tough spot at times...particularly in regards to macro level events and universe building.

 

[Redryhno]

Oh look, a horribly misrepresentative image that downplays every one of Luke's accomplishments and hypes up every last thing Rey did. And you're just throwing it up as if it's even remotely accurate.

Last time I checked, Rey beat up two guys, knew about a single modification that she was involved with installing on the Millenium Falcon that Han had absolutely no fucking way of knowing about, stated that she's flown before but not in space, gets her ass handed to her by a heavily wounded and emotionally distraught Kylo Ren until she gives into the Force, can resist mind probing and manages to trick a weak minded stormtrooper on her third attempt, is trusted by Leia, the leader of the Resistance and Force sensitive, to go find her Jedi brother, speaks several languages like literally every other character in the universe, and has an actual reason why she would be competent at these things considering she lived on a junkyard planet and is a former student of Luke's.

Meanwhile, Luke is the best pilot in the Rebellion who can survive a trench run and Darth Vader simply because he flew some speeder back home, blew up a giant superweapon by giving into the Force allowing him to make a shot no one else was able to make, and has no reason to be the least bit competent at any sort of combat or piloting. But I guess him being put upon makes all his achievements go away.

Not to stomp on your rant here, but considering how often other people had to translate in the orignal trilogy(Chewie to Han to everyone else alot of the time and most certainly not Luke), I'm going to have to say no, not everyone can understand every language in the galaxy. Hell, even in the prequels, the point in time the galaxy having a common language would make sense, there was a helluva lot of translating. And about the only reason there wasn't more was simply because "humans" were the focus. Hell, there was even a galactic translator referenced. So there's a pretty big chance nobody speaks the same language, they're just all listening through their translators so we're just seeing it through our own(like with any dub or any time language/subtitles "should" be a factor to "fit".)

And you're largely underplaying Rey's accomplishments just as much as you're saying others are overplaying them. Can we just quit playing this game and just agree that comparatively, Rey is at a much stronger place than Luke was at the same period? And that that presents a pretty big Majin-shaped problem going forward?

She beat a Sith apprentice on her first tries basically(Jedi mindfuck first, and then physically, even if he was injured at the time). Something that even Obi-Wan had difficulty doing, and he was FAR more accomplished when Maul was around than Rey. The strongest Jedi in the galaxy at the time, routinely hailed as masters of the Force and heroes of a bygone age, largely paled in comparison to their Sith counterparts.

And here we have Rey just "giving in" to the Force and it suddenly making her better? That's not how it's been shown to work in the past dude(beyond just simple zen state of mind for a few moments, and even that was only possible because Luke wasn't having to concentrate on much of anything other than that), and there's no reason it should beyond "it makes this particular scene more dramatic". How hard would it have been to show that although she gives in and embraces the Force, she still loses because Ren knows what the fuck he's actually doing more than her?But that it allows her and...what's his name(I'm really bad with names of characters I don't find to be all that important), to escape? How hard would it have been to show the new trilogy's villain as actually being competent against the hero for once?

Do you see the problem people largely have with Rey? It's not that she's got these abilities, skills, and talents, it's that she's shown to have them this fucking early on. It's that she's been given three movies of growth packed into one. The hero always wins in the end, we know this. But if you aren't even going to have them be set back from a narrative standpoint, why the hell should anyone care how they win in the end?

We've all seen the Sonic fanfics, the bad Naruto filler, the shitty manga series that somehow keeps being printed even though three hundred chapters could easily have been cut down to forty and it would've been more coherent and actually have been good. For alot of people, this is largely the same thing. And instead of accepting that as their reasoning, people largely latch onto Rey having boobs being why they don't like her some reason I'm still not understanding beyond playing the same damn game people have been for almost ten fucking years now.

 

[Frankster]

Gonna stop being lazy and start snipping

120% in agreement here. New Hope might not be the first chronologically in the story, but it was the first film to be made, came with 0 baggage and expectations and thus was allowed to breathe and be its own thing without even having to explain what happened prior to the story. TFA on the other hand... Yikes.

I didn't even really think about it but yeh, Vader is pretty much just an enforcer in the first film who looks cool but otherwise he isn't expanded any more then say..Tarkin. Kylo Ren however came out with far more character out of the gate, to the point that some dislike him exactly because it isn't long before we start seeing him without a helmet and what goes on inside his psyche, he doesn't have time to be a proper scary enforcer before we see his vulnerable side.

Yeah you make some very good points here that I can't help but not my head vigorously to. Maybe this is yet another reason why I'm now more excited for Rogue one then the next official Star wars film, Rogue one won't have a lot of these external factors to screw it up *fingers crossed*

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Do you see the problem people largely have with Rey? It's not that she's got these abilities, skills, and talents, it's that she's shown to have them this fucking early on.

I personally don't think her abilities as shown are all that exceptional.

True, she fights a sith apprentice and wins... but only when he is severely wounded. So wounded that he has some trouble dealing with a single storm trooper in his preferred style of combat. Under normal circumstances he should have been able to just think at Finn and kill him. And Finn is a storm trooper by the way who was massively outclassed by TR-8R in close combat. If you watch the comparative fights Finn had about as much difficulty with TR-8R as he did with Ren. Ren was so weak at the time he was basically only on par with a melee specialist storm trooper, and he is actively bleeding out as the scene goes.

So Rey barely managed to beat a dying man in a sword fight, and only because he decided to not take the killing blow when he had it. Not exactly a massive accomplishment.

And resisting force mindfuckery isn't all that special. There are many times where people easily shrug off force influence even from masters, and I think we can say with confidence that at least Leia has shown an ability to resist such mindfuckery from Darth Vader, who is unquestionably more powerful than Kylo Ren. So not special either.

Nothing she does is all that impressive when taken in context, and the movie takes great pains to make most of that context abundantly clear. Hell, it is strongly implied that she already had some training as a force user, hence her ability to pick it up so quickly. But people insist on ignoring every bit of context they can to make Rey seem like the perfect Mary Sue wonderkin when she clearly is not. It is ridiculous.

And for all the complaints that that TFA was a rehash of ANH (which is very unfair to both movies, in my opinion) there are sure a lot of people demanding that Rey has to go through the same process of force discovery that Luke did. Because apparently all force users have to follow the exact archetype of Luke Skywalker even though he was plainly stated to be an unusual case himself.

People find reasons to hate Rey. If people hated Rey for the character she actually is then I could understand that. I even agree she is the least interesting of the new 3 so far. But they don't. They invent reasons to hate her. They ignore the actual movie, preferring instead to just make shit up about her so they can hate her more. And there are only two reasons I can think of for this: It is a new Star Wars movie and nerds will be nerds and hate new things or people will be sexist bastards and hate it when women get the spotlight.

 

[Redryhno]

People find reasons to hate Rey. If people hated Rey for the character she actually is then I could understand that. I even agree she is the least interesting of the new 3 so far. But they don't. They invent reasons to hate her. They ignore the actual movie, preferring instead to just make shit up about her so they can hate her more. And there are only two reasons I can think of for this: It is a new Star Wars movie and nerds will be nerds and hate new things or people will be sexist bastards and hate it when women get the spotlight.

Here's the thing, this right here, is what I'm talking about when it comes to people not taking "I don't like her" as reason enough. It's always you're either a fanboy(been called that when I routinely fall asleep watching through every movie in the series and honestly have only ever been interested in the ancient history of the setting that's now largely been rendered moot), or you just don't like women in leading hero roles(which could be true if you look at it a certain considering there's very few hero women that are actually done competently).

Neither of which contribute to much other than that point-scoring bullshit I mentioned. People have different tastes and standards, and those are largely being thrown out the window as legitimate because, as you said, "people aren't willing to accept women as heroes". And that mindset is limiting as all fuck.

Like seriously, the movie was in production(and not just production "we're totally doing it" limbo) for less than a year, went through something like four directors, three sets of writers, and a plethora of crew members. I was surprised it wasn't as much of a trainwreck as I thought it would be, but it still had problems. And they're largely hand-waved away with "Rey is amazing"(something that's HEAVILY disagreed upon in the fandom) and "two more movies!"(and when you need two more movies to answer questions in the FIRST one there's a bit problem, this is part of why Kara no Kyokai will never be considered as mainstream amazing as it is like something like Madoka).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...(and when you need two more movies to answer questions in the FIRST one there's a bit problem, this is part of why Kara no Kyokai will never be considered as mainstream amazing as it is like something like Madoka).

Uh, not really. It's kind of standard operating procedure for trilogies, particularly more modern day trilogies that are functionally a single story arc broken over a 6 hour span. I'll never understand this bizarre insistence that films be 100% self contained (ushered forth for the first time regarding Rey and Force Awakens). It literally disallows any kind of mystery, cliffhanger or obscured plot point.

As to Rey, and why people dislike her...obviously it varies from individual to individual, but let's look at comments from the Rogue One trailer, shall we?

The feminism is strong with this one...

ANOTHER WHITE BRITSH GIRL AS THE LEAD VERY ORIGINAL DISNEY

Star Wars: Rogue Feminist!!!!!

I'm all for diversity but I think what Disney is showing is that it only matters if the white females are happy lol. Why not someone of a different race instead of giving us what we just had in Force Awakens

Ok why do all the new Star Wars movies have a girl as the main character and everyone has a British accent

I think it's hilarious seeing all these feminists and their weak male slaves getting all worked up when guys throw the same arguments at them that they've been spewing for years now. Glorious karma

Disney and their princesses come on xD

Feminism has taken over Star Wars?

White males are not allowed to be good guys anymore it seems.

That moment when you realize the franchise you knew and loved as a child has just become a feminist cash grab... :/

Three male leads in RO: hispanic, black, asian. Every bad guy in RO: white. I'm not saying that this movie is racist, but if one would flip the script, people would be screaming "Bloody racism!".

They did this just to appease the feminists

feminism destroy's movies and games!

Why only black people and weirds womens .??? ,, as main cast..

Great, another annoying Mary Sue character.

Disney presents: Social Justice Wars: Mary Sue in Space!

I could go on and on and on as there are thousands of comments, but I think this is sufficient. Second most common complaint was "Where the hell are Finn and Rey, what is this!?". Third most common complaint was about the annoying siren.

You'll note this is after a one minute teaser trailer with virtually no plot exposition and certainly no advanced characterization.

Let us not pretend that the "split fan base" arguing this subject is populated on one side solely by reasoned media critics. Does disliking a character mean you agree with these idiots quoted above? Of course not. But when you summon "the fandom" as support for an argument, you're associating yourself with a mob, and suggest they're talking with one voice. They're not. A good reason criticism of Rey achieved the volume it did was individuals such as those quoted above. These comments are being directed at a film they haven't seen. Draw your own conclusions about the intelligence of their criticism.

 

[G96 Saber]

Because the First Order are likely an opposing legitimate government and the New Republic have hampered themselves with a stupid de-militerisation act. Which was very liberal of them. And very silly.