After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[Dazzle Novak]

Oh god this is starting to be a worrying trend in TFA threads. I'm gonna give you guys a squeeze because it was quite a few posts ago and it was only 3 lines, so maybe you don't get an accurate sense of my nerd rage in that single snipe that was otherwise completed unrelated to what I was talking about.
But BloatedGuppy or anyone else who was there at the last thread can back me up on this, I was hating on Poe before it was cool and had epic nerd rages on him before it was pointed out that apparently no one does it and I'm a card carrying member of the Rey hate club. #notallreyhaters

If you liked that scene though, here is another one for you guys: ever gave much thought on how Poe came from waking up in the desert alone without even his jacket (and having survived a fall high enough to separate him from his friend so they weren't in sight of each other), to suddenly being at the head of the flight of resistance fighters right before he goes earning his acehood thrice over?
It's apparently explained in a deleted scene but even with it (he got a ride by 2 random dudes) you gotta love how easy it was to leave Jahku all along with absolutely no money and nothing more then the shirt on your back, and make it back to resistance hq via galactic hitch hiking, have a bit of tea, then go off and rescue the protagonists right at the exact most perfect time.
This guy being Ace Rimmer on steroids though, he probably had all sorts of adventures and blew up some First Order fleets on his way with nothing more then a perfectly delivered quip and then banged like two space princesses.

Hell, I'll do you one better and say I was complaining about Gary Stuism in Abram's Nu-Trek where Kirk is made captain for no other reason than the eight military ranks above him simultaneously being made vacant and it being his "destiny". Beyond that, we have a typical "rebel without a cause" bad boy slacker protagonist where there once was a character who managed to be both suave and disciplined.

What's frustrating about the Rey praise is that it's premised on so much revisionism. Luke was the ace in A New Hope despite being surrounded by cooler and/or more mature characters; Leia was a damsel in distress despite talking shit to Darth Goddamn Vader's face, resisting torture, and firing blasters right alongside the boys; and never before has there been a tough woman protagonist in space sci-fi *cough*EllenRipley*cough*...

 

[Kolby Jack]

But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

Because being around crashed spaceships doesn't turn you into a space ace anymore then being around wrecked cars makes you into a formula 1 driver. Trust me, I've lived most of my life around actual functioning cars and I still don't know how to drive by osmosis. Jokes aside this was why when I actually watched the film I was so surprised to see she could pilot the falcon, heck I wasn't even sure she knew how to drive because you always see her walking around rather then using any vehicle.

Other than that boxy speeder she uses in the first scene she's in? Also, just because you chose not to learn about cars doesn't mean you couldn't have. And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace." She's good, and force-sensitive, but she only had one flying scene. It's not like she was zipping through the sky alongside Poe shooting down dozens of fighters and blowing up planets the whole movie.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

...Rey is a good character.

Moving on.

I always figured it was a case of 'cold war' politics - that an all out war between the two sides would've been devastating and pointless, resulting in massive losses with no gain. So instead they just stood on each others borders, rattling sabers, sabotaging assorted projects, sending spies or building up fleets.

Though, it's just The First Order spent time building a thermo-nuclear (look it's fueled by a sun, it counts) weapon rather than dumping money into more Star Destroyers. And then happened to be crazy enough to push the big red button to blow everyone to hell.

'Mutually Assured Destruction' doesn't quite work as planned when someone makes a weapon that can literally fire across the Galaxy to blow up your entire star system in a surprise attack.

 

[RedRockRun]

I still have to ask; why is the New Galactic Republic not actively fighting the First Order in the new trilogy? The GR is a legitimate government, and its not like the First Order is a rival government; they're clearly a terrorist organization with a bank account and they even act like they acknowledge it.

Yet the NGR limits their fight to a small, barely organized "Resistance" movement? Why the fuck isn't the actual Navy assisting; why doesn't the Resistance appear to have ACTUAL ships, not just small craft?

What the hell guys?

(Also, I have sadface because my new avatar won't appear)

As someone refusing to be an apologist for this movie, it's because Abrams wanted to mirror the conceit of the original trilogy as opposed to branching out into something new.

Thus, the First Order and Resistance are contrived to recapture the feel of the old movies where a well-equipped, and uniform fascist army clashes against ragtag underdogs.

That is why there is a First Order to begin with, and don't let anyone work any logic gymnastics trying to say otherwise. It's hackneyed writing, driving for the nostalgia vote and nothing more.

 

[Politrukk]

Yeah, I have to agree, it did a pretty terrible job at explaining the political setting. Now, I get it, the prequels are PR poison and they wanted to get as far away from them as possible, and I get that people told George to go fuck himself when he filled his movies with boring political dialogue, but that doesn't mean politics to contextualize the story are automatically a bad thing. It seems I was apparently supposed to watch the movie, then go read the novelization to find out what the stakes were and why I should care.

I think part of the problem here is that due to the expanded universe that did handle some of that politics and ofcourse the prequel movies actually shining at some of those moments.... that the movies feel empty without it now.

A lot of people myself included are fan of The Clone Wars animated series and that series basically fixes a lot of what was wrong with the prequel trilogy and the politics part is surprisingly fun.

(it also shows that in the heart of it, movies where the Jedi have a vast array of loving characters were always doomed because they were bound to be killed as to having a reason why they were not in the original trilogy).

 

[Dazzle Novak]

He has a complex relationship with her, possibly a familial one. Unlike Vader, who was mostly there to elucidate the perils of Luke's interaction with The Force and the potential downside of unprepared investigation of his newfound powers, Ben is a full fledged character. Possibly the most richly detailed and explored character of TFA.

Answer this for me. I'm not being rhetorical, I think this is a part I might be misremembering and/or misunderstanding.

What is with the "seduced by the light" horseshit? When do we see a single moment where he comes off as anything but Anakin 2.0 complete with Borderline Personality disorder?

Beyond that, what does the series gain by assuming one can be invested in his redemption arc? Sorry, but once you're rolling deep with Space Nazis on Starkiller Bases and murdering fan favorite smugglers, you're irredeemable. No amount of "sorry" can change his complicity in a five planet genocide. Never mind that he's not even likable in his evil.

Yes, a similar thing was done with Darth Vader but A)in the OT it was more about Luke coming to terms with his lineage and relationship with his father and B) the effort to frame the redemption as Vader's arc resulted in the prequels. If they wanted to do the whole conflicted Sith Lord thing, why not just copy Knights of the Old Republic. Imagine if Kylo Ren (rather than being an obviously unhinged temper-tantrum throwing nutcase) was genteel, kind, and charming, but fell to the Dark Side by committing war atrocities against a worse enemy. Hell, throw in the Star Forge while you're at it so we don't get a fucking Death Star 3.0 (but bigger!)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Answer this for me. I'm not being rhetorical, I think this is a part I might be misremembering and/or misunderstanding.

What is with the "seduced by the light" horseshit? When do we see a single moment where he comes off as anything but Anakin 2.0 complete with Borderline Personality disorder?

He hadn't been "seduced by the light". He said he felt "the pull of the light". Indicating he felt a desire to do the right thing, which he was fighting against ardently. Mature, elder Vader is someone who is secure in his pathology. It isn't until Luke is at the brink of death that he snaps. Ben Solo has yet, at that point, to be completely subsumed by the Dark Side. That doesn't mean he's not evil, or doing evil things. It means his journey to the dark side isn't complete, and he's trying to force it in order to obliterate the uncertainty and insufficiency he feels. He's unsuccessful.

Beyond that, what does the series gain by assuming one can be invested in his redemption arc?

Who said it was a redemption arc? Is that the only way a morally compromised character can be interesting? Via a redemption arc?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

He hadn't been "seduced by the light". He said he felt "the pull of the light". Indicating he felt a desire to do the right thing, which he was fighting against ardently. Mature, elder Vader is someone who is secure in his pathology. It isn't until Luke is at the brink of death that he snaps. Ben Solo has yet, at that point, to be completely subsumed by the Dark Side. That doesn't mean he's not evil, or doing evil things. It means his journey to the dark side isn't complete, and he's trying to force it in order to obliterate the uncertainty and insufficiency he feels. He's unsuccessful.

Fair, but nothing we see clarifies what a "complete" fall looks like versus one where, like Vader, one can still be snapped out of it. Vader was evil and it didn't matter if Lucas suggested he felt kinda bad about it. If you'll admit Kylo Ren is evil, it's pedantic to go, "Well, he's not as evil as he'd like to be." Who cares? What does it matter? Can you cite an instance where Ben shows a desire to do the right thing? You can speculate, and the creators can even insist, but Kylo Ren as depicted in the film doesn't exhibit any disposition toward goodness. Even the other Space Nazi troopers steer clear of that asshole. Likewise, we're given no reason as to why Ben was so enamored by Vader or the Empire in the first place. What's his goal other than to be the biggest dick possible (a goal I'd say he's pretty much accomplished).

Who said it was a redemption arc? Is that the only way a morally compromised character can be interesting? Via a redemption arc?

No, but what's an alternative story path for wallowing in his angsty confusion if he's just an irredeemable dick after all?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Fair, but nothing we see clarifies what a "complete" fall looks like versus one where, like Vader, one can still be snapped out of it.

Without delving into Star Wars and its own trademarked brand of mysticism, there's really no such thing as a "complete fall to evil". No one becomes so evil they cannot conceive of doing "good", or visa versa. There's no metric by which one becomes locked into evil acts, as if there were a meter on their arm slowly turning black and one day it was like "Fuck, I'm over 90! I guess I'm completely evil now".

Can you cite an instance where Ben shows a desire to do the right thing? You can speculate, and the creators can even insist, but Kylo Ren as depicted in the film doesn't exhibit any disposition toward goodness. Even the other Space Nazi troopers steer clear of that asshole. Likewise, we're given no reason as to why Ben was so enamored by Vader or the Empire in the first place. What's his goal other than to be the biggest dick possible (a goal I'd say he's pretty much accomplished).

We've only just had an introduction to these characters. I will express satisfaction or lack thereof with Ben Solo's arc when it's complete. After one film, I find the character promising, because we don't often get a villain who is sullen, insecure, and striving to be evil without even being fully convinced it's the right course of action. The villains in these fantasy operas tend to be Machiavellian mustache twirlers. Look at Palpatine. He's just evil because the dude digs being evil! Power and tyranny! Lots of cackling! He's fun, but he's not particularly nuanced.

No, but what's an alternative story path for wallowing in his angsty confusion if he's just an irredeemable dick after all?

I would suggest the language being employed here suggests you're not particularly receptive to alternative views of the character. It's like having someone who hates cheese demanding you explain to him why it's not disgusting.

 

[Something Amyss]

Fair, but nothing we see clarifies what a "complete" fall looks like versus one where, like Vader, one can still be snapped out of it.

Without delving into Star Wars and its own trademarked brand of mysticism, there's really no such thing as a "complete fall to evil". No one becomes so evil they cannot conceive of doing "good", or visa versa. There's no metric by which one becomes locked into evil acts, as if there were a meter on their arm slowly turning black and one day it was like "Fuck, I'm over 90! I guess I'm completely evil now".

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

Fair, but also fair to note is that they A) both turned out to be incorrect, and B) Obi-Wan in particular was being more than a little stroppy when he said that.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

I would suggest the language being employed here suggests you're not particularly receptive to alternative views of the character. It's like having someone who hates cheese demanding you explain to him why it's not disgusting.

Even if I accept your premise that Kylo Ren is a particularly unique villain because the only alternative is a mustache-twirler (a premise I certainly don't accept), being open doesn't mean accepting everything I'm given. Okay, the people behind TFA tried something new. As is, it didn't work for me. I saw Anakin 2.0 truncated to a single film. I'm also not too fond of blockbuster juggernauts not bothering to strive for a level of completion many ninety minute films somehow manage simply because, "Eh, we've got two more films to figure it all out."

What if, and this may be crazy talk, sequels were used to further develop great standalones rather than seven hour exercises in patchy, serial storytelling?

Since TFA certainly isn't above cribbing ideas, I wonder why they didn't just, say, look at Zuko's arc in Avatar to nail a "sullen, insecure, and striving to be evil without being fully convinced it's the right course of action" character? Personally, I think "young adult" (and really that's a stretch given the character's like 29 years old) is too often portrayed in terms of teen angst. There's got to be something between "Byronic dreamboats who just can't get a grasp of these complicated feelings!" and "cackling maniacs". What if Kylo Ren was portrayed as an innately good guy, a chummy, "please and thank you" sort of bloke, who's compelled to commit heinous acts during war? That'd steer us away from yet another Skywalker who'd have benefitted from a therapist visit and some Ambien.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Even if I accept your premise that Kylo Ren is a particularly unique villain because the only alternative is a mustache-twirler (a premise I certainly don't accept), being open doesn't mean accepting everything I'm given.

I didn't suggest he was "particularly unique". He's unique in Star Wars space, certainly, at least the space given to us by the films. One can certainly draw an analogue to Anakin in the prequel trilogy, but that so was poorly written, poorly directed and poorly acted it might as well have not even happened at all.

I'm also not too fond of blockbuster juggernauts not bothering to strive for a level of completion many ninety minute films somehow manage simply because, "Eh, we've got two more films to figure it all out."

Perhaps because I've become accustomed to television as a primary medium of entertainment, "serial storytelling" does not strike me as unusual, or problematic. I have absolutely no issues with a film leaving plot threads dangling and characterization in a set-up phase. I will have a problem if, upon viewing the completed trilogy, I see no satsifying resolution to these things.

There's got to be something between "Byronic dreamboats who just can't get a grasp of these complicated feelings!" and "cackling maniacs".

I just want to commend you for this line, particularly "Byronic dreamboats". That was a good chuckle.

What if Kylo Ren was portrayed as an innately good guy, a chummy, "please and thank you" sort of bloke, who's compelled to commit heinous acts during war? That'd steer us away from yet another Skywalker who'd have benefitted from a therapist visit and some Ambien.

I'm sure this will aggravate, but the reason I bring up the Emperor is to boldly underscore the reality of the film series you are watching. I don't tune into a Star Wars film expecting Walter White. The primary villain of the first trilogy was called "Darth" and wore all black and ran around making fists and shouting orders in a menacing basso voice. His superior was a septuagenarian lunatic with sinister yellow eyes who shot lightning from his hands. The principles were a callow youth with a hero's blood pumping through his veins, a cocksure and irrepressibly charming scoundrel with a heart of the purest gold, and a literal fucking princess. It might sound like a cop-out to say "It's Star Wars, so it's dopey", but it's Star Wars, so it's dopey. There's a certain...broadness...and simplicity expected from both the characterization and the storytelling. I would argue that's part of its essential appeal. One part vaguely outlined mysticism, one part simple archetypal storytelling, and several heaving dollops of Rule of Cool. Naturally I don't think this is Great Cinema. It's serial fantasy. It's crowd pleasing spectacle. I'm genuinely confused by people who come out wondering why characters aren't more robustly textured, or why planet sized super weapons don't obey the rules of science, or why Finn doesn't show more aggressive signs of PTSD as if they had attended a screening of Zero Dark Thirty.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The Bits on Poe

So, J.J. was basically re-creating Episode 4, but he didn't really understand one of the best parts of the whole series. (The Luke/Han/Leia dynamic.)

Okay, it's official. I'm pretty certain every issue I have with this film can be laid directly at Abrams' feet. Though what could I expect from the dipstick who put Khan in Star Trek: Into Darkness? It's pretty much a given he has no idea what made any of these things so good in the first place.

 

[Frankster]

Other than that boxy speeder she uses in the first scene she's in?

*looks up Rey+speeder and finds a pic* I'll be the son of a wookie, yer right. Well I hold up my hands and admit I somehow missed that speeder and honestly just remembered her walking on foot all the time whenever she was shown. Unless the speeder is show for like one scene and never again then this is a bit embarrassing.

However no to the rest. I could learn to drive by taking lessons because I can afford it and there's one thing that was shown about Rey that I'm pretty sure I'm right on it's that she's a thug living the hard knock life without access to anything fancy besides what she has made for herself, we are talking about a girl who can barely afford food after all.

But none of this matters because I'm afraid this wasn't what you said:

But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

You asked very specifically why Rey can't be a good pilot due to spending 20 years around spaceships, and that's the answer:because being around crashed spaceships has 0 relation with learning how to fly. She could have spent 200 years on Jahku and that still wouldn't have been a satisfactory explanation on how she learned to fly though it would certainly explain if she had an encyclopedic knowledge of ship classes and their quirks.
Ultimately this isn't a big deal really though, but can you at least understand why some people did not see her flying aptitude coming and might have been under the initial impression she was a poor flier and until she hopped into the falcon, she would rely on other characters for it? I stand by my first impressions that I thought Poe/Rey/Finn were going to be like a trio where every character did something else the other two couldn't and they would be like the lost vikings, needing to switch out with each other to face particular tasks. Sadly I was quickly proven wrong :/

Also cmon I know we laugh at them poor TIE pilots but they are professionals who were taught how to fly and go through flight school, yeah I'd expect them to outfly a total noob and be a litmus test for being at least a somewhat competent flier at least.

I tried to make a chart showing different levels of aptitudes at flying but when I placed Poe on the chart it just exploded in my face. I think Poe shouldn't even be considered a mere pilot, he is more like Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, flying is his brush and space is his canvas, with the screams and terror of his enemies being the paint.

 

[Frankster]

I apologize if this goes against the rules to post twice in a row, but my post was getting lengthy and I was talking to several different people so figured it would be classier to cut my post in 2.

Hell, I'll do you one better and say I was complaining about Gary Stuism in Abram's Nu-Trek where Kirk is made captain (...) What's frustrating about the Rey praise is that it's premised on so much revisionism.

Eugh Nu Kirk. Sadly I don't feel the same level of investment in Trek as I do Wars so can't quite summon the same amount of vitriol, but I share your disgust. I haven't even bothered watching the 2nd film, though the sadistic Mortal Kombat fan in me quite enjoyed the various gruesome deaths such crew being sucked out whilst in warp transit in the first.

As for the historical revisionism, for sure there's a lot of it when it's convenient to the person making the statement.

I'm actually letting a LOT of comments fly past unchallenged even though I'm pretty sure they are wrong because otherwise I'd be here all day and don't want to have my nerd musings take up 3/4 of every page in this discussion, so just sticking to those I reckon I can turn into somewhat lulzy rants. Ok I'll do ONE just because it's gonna bug me otherwise:

[
And resisting force mindfuckery isn't all that special. There are many times where people easily shrug off force influence even from masters, and I think we can say with confidence that at least Leia has shown an ability to resist such mindfuckery from Darth Vader, who is unquestionably more powerful than Kylo Ren. So not special either.

Could you expand on this a bit please? Specifically when Leia was able to resist it, and when Darth Vader employed it.
In the CW comics (still cannon), Anakin Skywalker is supposed to suck hard at force persuasion, it was a recurrent meme that he would try and fail at it only for Obi Wan to tut his head and be all "you've got much to learn my young padawan" then goes and aces it.
But even during the trilogy, long before the comics were written, I'm pretty sure you never see Vader use it, otherwise why would he bother with torture droids in general? Heck he could just have extracted info straight from Hans mind in the second film then. Not saying plot holes ain't impossible, but if Vader does show this ability in the films you're going to have to refresh my memory a bit.

Otherwise as for shrugging it off, ehhh kinda depends I guess. Stormtroopers are said specifically to be weak minded because of their indoctrination so it seems to imply its a willpower thing, which combined with the knowledge that not all Jedi was proficient at it even on "easy" targets such as our friend Anakin makes me believe the jedi mink trick works something like roll wisdom+mind trick skill level vs target's willpower save. Just my own theory though.
So in TFA, I have no trouble with her resisting Kylo Ren (he clearly fumbled his rolls whilst Rey aced her willpower test) but her then using the mind trick on even a stormtrooper made me raise an eye brow as I thought she was a lvl 0 jedi. Still it's possible that isn't the case and she did have prior jedi training so we shall wait and see on that...

This would solve politics because under regional rule the local star systems have a say on what goes on in the military structure and can use them as a general impartial policing force.

This sounds disturbingly close to the Moff system the Empire used, are you an enemy of freedom Timedraven? -^

Btw do you remember how the Republic fell in the first place? Because they had no army or fleet of their own (because it got disbanded prior, lol), so when an external enemy did come (the CIS) they were utterly defenseless and had to rely on this clone army conveniently made just in time...

Also it makes sense why pirates and scum of all kinds are much more willing to help the rebels/republic doesn't it? :3
The old EU was even worst in this regard, I remember in the Thrawn series he almost successfully wipes out a ton of pirates and smugglers at their meeting, and they get all rage full and go "we will join the new republic, they are the good guys whereas the empire just wants to kill us and stop our piratey ways!". I was like..dafuq? How is Thrawn the bad guy here? And how is the New Republic the good guys by welcoming these folks into their arms?
This is Pirates of the Carribean "pirates are all about freedom and liberty!" all over again.

I tell you, Palpatine was right. The republic is just a fail of a system and all it does is protect a certain cushy pampered elite who get to feel and sound important in their senate or at the head of their respective governments but are completely useless and often have to resort to underhanded means such as using their wealth and influence to fund a resistance/terrorist (depends on which side you're on) movement. Really the Republic is all about the 1%. OCCUPY CORUSCANT.
Bonus rant: remember the Alderaanians? If you go to that world in the MMO it's actually a feudal society with the vast majority of the population working hard under the oppressive heel of families who have been in ruling positions for as long as they can remember. So having an Alderaanian noble like Bail or Leia Organa lecture you about freedom, equality and democracy is a bit like having Cersei Lannister from Game of Thrones lecture you on how to be a fair and beloved queen who only thinks about the welfare of her subjects.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

[
And resisting force mindfuckery isn't all that special. There are many times where people easily shrug off force influence even from masters, and I think we can say with confidence that at least Leia has shown an ability to resist such mindfuckery from Darth Vader, who is unquestionably more powerful than Kylo Ren. So not special either.

Could you expand on this a bit please? Specifically when Leia was able to resist it, and when Darth Vader employed it.

When Darth Vader tortured her for information about the rebel base. I didn't say that we can say it for sure, but it seems extremely unlikely that if such a trick exists then Darth Vader, at that time a master of the dark side, would have at least some ability with it. Plus, that would give us a good reason why Darth Vader himself performed the interrogation. I also think it states that other people had tried and failed.

I think there is at least a strong chance that Darth Vader tried the trick and it didn't work. As for why he uses the interrogation droid, Darth Vader is not arrogant like Kylo Ren. He doesn't assume he can do everything perfectly and on his own. He rarely if ever oversteps his limits and always takes advantage of anything that might tip the balance in his favor. Anakin is a very different story, but it seems since his days of arrogant youth Darth Vader has learned self control and restraint.

 

[Frankster]

it seems extremely unlikely that if such a trick exists then Darth Vader, at that time a master of the dark side, would have at least some ability with it. Plus, that would give us a good reason why Darth Vader himself performed the interrogation.

This would imply he also tried this in Empire with captured Han Solo and even Chewbecca, which would mean either Vader really isn't adept at this skill(perhaps his suit interferes with certain abilities?) or...it's not that hard to resist even whilst you're being tortured since you only see it used on a Stormtrooper in the films who, again, is said specifically to be weak minded. Ok I'm beginning to see how you'd arrive at your conclusion even if I don't quite agree with it.

I guess if I were to forget external sources and limit myself only to the films, I might agree it's a reasonable assumption but if we are going by what could have happened off screen with no clear visual hint we could just as easily say Vader interrogated Leia via wedgies and wet willies and other schoolyard bullying antics. He is after all a master of the dark arts who would use any technique at his disposal.
...
You know what, I actually like this idea and enjoy the mental image, carry on.

Joking aside I suppose this is simply a question of how faith you put in supplementary materials, since Disney proved it's well possible to have a source of cannon info you'd rely on for more then a decade suddenly made obsolete and replace it by something else entirely, I'm not quite willing to go all "look! it says on p357 of this that Vader doesn't know how to do a jedi mind trick" as a checkmate argument. Especially as in this case my sources involved Anakin rather then Vader and do agree with you that his dip in the lava cooled down his hot headness somewhat and he has had plenty of time to develop new tricks.
I suppose I just liked the idea that Vader had this big specific weakness in his jedi curriculum and dislike the idea that Han,Leia and Chewbecca all resisted the mind trick whilst the poor random mooks get mind tricked super easily (i can at least understand for leia but the other two ain't even force users!), but sadly until I learn to make reality bend to my whims, that doesn't make it truth.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I'd actually disagree...to a certain extent.

Being able to stop a blaster bolt in mid-air, and later taking a center-mass hit with a bowcaster and surviving, let alone still being combat-effective, indicates he either has a natural talent for absorb/dissipate, or is highly trained in it. The same goes for his skill with telekinesis, and telepathy. He's unrefined, but no slouch by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, on the other hand he blows at drawing upon the Dark Side, having to aggravate his own wounds to do it.

Those are actually hinges of my original point. He's not sufficiently Dark enough to be effective. One can be powerful, raw, but unrefined. I get the feeling Ren is a born Light side user and absolutely crippled when it comes to Dark side usage. He can, but its so far against his nature it actually weakens him. I can be wrong but it feels like he's trying so hard to be a bad guy, but it just isn't working out for him. Cosplaying Vader but not quite getting things right.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

Fair, but also fair to note is that they A) both turned out to be incorrect, and B) Obi-Wan in particular was being more than a little stroppy when he said that.

I don't know. If I'd been dead for two movies and was stuck in a swamp with a strange talking frog, I'd be a little upset, too.