After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[BloatedGuppy]

I could learn to drive by taking lessons because I can afford it and there's one thing that was shown about Rey that I'm pretty sure I'm right on it's that she's a thug living the hard knock life without access to anything fancy besides what she has made for herself, we are talking about a girl who can barely afford food after all.

As per the novelization, she had access to an old flight simulator that she spent excessive amounts of time with, due to literally not having anything else to do in her spare time. While this would have been good context to add to the film, I'm genuinely not sure the film needed anything more than "I'm a pilot, I know how to fly ships". Why would we not take someone at their word? We get a snapshot of Rey's life on the planet, but we're given no reason to believe it's a summation of her entire existence there. I've flown before, never off planet, I was surprised by my own success during that chase sequence. And later on, it's revealed I'm a force user, and canonically force users are preternaturally good at everything because they passively see into the future without realizing it. Both canonically and in-film it's reasonably established.

Also cmon I know we laugh at them poor TIE pilots but they are professionals who were taught how to fly and go through flight school, yeah I'd expect them to outfly a total noob and be a litmus test for being at least a somewhat competent flier at least.

That's troopers for you. I don't know what kind of training program the Order/Empire puts them through, but it needs better quality control.

But even during the trilogy, long before the comics were written, I'm pretty sure you never see Vader use it, otherwise why would he bother with torture droids in general?

Can Dark Side force users even do it at all? Do we ever see one doing it, in all seven films? Even guys who would be natural fits at it? I'm sure Palpatine or Dooku might have given it a shot...it suits them...but if memory serves they relied on more traditional forms of manipulation, along with Anakin being a thundering dumbass for plot purposes. The old "mind trick" might be a Jedi-specific thing. What Kylo Ren does in TFA doesn't resemble the "Jedi mind trick" at all. It's more of an aggressive, probing, dark side mind-buggering.

Still it's possible that isn't the case and she did have prior jedi training so we shall wait and see on that...

I subscribe to the theory that Rey has had prior training that was subsumed/blocked (and possibly awakened by Kylo Ren poking around in there), and even I think that scene was handled poorly. Not the stare/down initial conversation, but the mind-trick scene. She seems to come upon the idea out of nowhere, and it's a bit jarring. Even if she'd made a request, and gotten a surprising reaction, and made further more ludicrous requests...that would've been fine. Something to imply the testing of a surprising power. Even if it was one she already possessed.

 

[DefunctTheory]

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

Fair, but also fair to note is that they A) both turned out to be incorrect, and B) Obi-Wan in particular was being more than a little stroppy when he said that.

I don't know. If I'd been dead for two movies and was stuck in a swamp with a strange talking frog, I'd be a little upset, too.

Yeah... if my afterlife was hanging out with a toad who only spoke in riddles in a swamp, forced to haunt some uppity little brat who bitched all the time, I'd be pissy too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't know. If I'd been dead for two movies and was stuck in a swamp with a strange talking frog, I'd be a little upset, too.

Yeah... if my afterlife was hanging out with a toad who only spoke in riddles in a swamp, forced to haunt some uppity little brat who bitched all the time, I'd be pissy too.

You see? You can't trust a word that guy says. "From a certain point of view". FFS.

Seriously, Obi-Wan was an A-Grade Asshole. It's exactly that kind of shit that got Jedi a bad reputation in the first place.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

it seems extremely unlikely that if such a trick exists then Darth Vader, at that time a master of the dark side, would have at least some ability with it. Plus, that would give us a good reason why Darth Vader himself performed the interrogation.

This would imply he also tried this in Empire with captured Han Solo and even Chewbecca, which would mean either Vader really isn't adept at this skill(perhaps his suit interferes with certain abilities?) or...it's not that hard to resist even whilst you're being tortured since you only see it used on a Stormtrooper in the films who, again, is said specifically to be weak minded. Ok I'm beginning to see how you'd arrive at your conclusion even if I don't quite agree with it.

In Empire though the only reason he tortured Han (and likely chewie) was to get Luke to come to his friends aid. Unless I am mistaken I don't think he was looking for any information, just to cause enough pain to get Luke's attention through force sensitivity.

I think the dark side mind fuckery is probably harder to resist than the mind trick, it seems to be a much more direct and brutal form of coercion (the dark side of the mind trick, if you will.) My personal theory is that people naturally strong in the force (Leia, Rey) have a strong natural defense against it even untrained. Which is why Kylo Ren was so sure he could pull it off, he probably never had to extract information from a person so strong in the force.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah... if my afterlife was hanging out with a toad who only spoke in riddles in a swamp, forced to haunt some uppity little brat who bitched all the time, I'd be pissy too.

I'd be all "you know what? Screw it! Fall to the Dark Side! Maybe one of those death stars will blow this swamp planet up!"

You see? You can't trust a word that guy says. "From a certain point of view". FFS.

Seriously, Obi-Wan was an A-Grade Asshole. It's exactly that kind of shit that got Jedi a bad reputation in the first place.

#notalljedi

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Those are actually hinges of my original point. He's not sufficiently Dark enough to be effective. One can be powerful, raw, but unrefined. I get the feeling Ren is a born Light side user and absolutely crippled when it comes to Dark side usage. He can, but its so far against his nature it actually weakens him. I can be wrong but it feels like he's trying so hard to be a bad guy, but it just isn't working out for him. Cosplaying Vader but not quite getting things right.

That's getting a bit into a more philosophical discussion about the nature of the Dark Side, that honestly I don't feel there's enough of the "new canon" to substantiate one way or the other. That being, whether or not some individuals are naturally-disposed to Light or Dark, and that disposition informs how powerful of a Force wielder they can be in either -- contrary, I'll add, to established (Lucas) canon of the Dark Side as a omnipresent corruptive force to which all Force-sensitives (even Yoda, as demonstrated in Clone Wars season 6) are susceptible, and personal disposition only made individuals more easily seduced rather than limited their power.

Of course, on the other hand the Mortis trilogy of Clone Wars muddies the water somewhat.

 

[Megalodon]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots? While they tended to lose to the Rebels in the end, they were hardly a cakewalk for Luke, Wedge and co. in IV-VI. The point being, Rey outflies trained, professional fighter pilots in a vehicle she's not only never flown before, but (as may have been pointed out earlier in this thread) should have written off before getting it off the ground (grinding along the ground like that can't be good for the fuselage).

Going from 'I can't even successfully take off' to 'I can pilot this thing through a bunch of wreckage while under fire', in the same flight no less,is some hefty plot armour, even by 'protagonist' standards.

 

[DefunctTheory]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

A TIE doesn't even have proper landing gear, IIRC.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots? While they tended to lose to the Rebels in the end, they were hardly a cakewalk for Luke, Wedge and co. in IV-VI. The point being, Rey outflies trained, professional fighter pilots in a vehicle she's not only never flown before, but (as may have been pointed out earlier in this thread) should have written off before getting it off the ground (grinding along the ground like that can't be good for the fuselage).

Going from 'I can't even successfully take off' to 'I can pilot this thing through a bunch of wreckage while under fire', in the same flight no less,is some hefty plot armour, even by 'protagonist' standards.

Sure they are 'trained, professional fighter pilots'. Of course we saw what the famed precision of Imperial stormtroopers meant in the original series so I don't think comparing heroes to stormtroopers or other imperial mooks really proves anything.

 

[SecondPrize]

Um, who? Han? Luke? Poe? She flew well, but we never saw any comparison to any other pilots except TIE pilots, who are... TIE pilots. Poe was even more amazing of a pilot in the film, but he's explicitly described as an experienced ace. But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

I have no idea why people don't tear Poe apart like they do Rey. That single shot in which he destroyed like thirteen TIE fighters and blasts several troopers, doing sharp turns, and Finn yells "That's one hell of a pilot!" was absolutely absurd. An ace pilot is lucky to shoot down five fighters in their career. In that one scene, he became like a triple ace pilot.

Dear god, you are right. I just went and found that scene. That is completely absurd. For some reason I remembered him taking out only two TIEs and a ground target. I guess my brain just rejected it, and I missed that scene on my rewatch because of the baby. I do remember thinking it was pretty stupid when I first saw it (though I still like the character.)

And everyone focuses on complaining about Rey's piloting ability in the same movie.

Well, Poe is Luke's Piloting Abilities: The Character. That's all he is. Maybe people just accept it.

I can't see Rey as anything but a Mary Sue. It's the language abilities, the piloting of the Falcon her first time going from can't take off to outflying the shit out of two Tie pilots in close quarters, the competent use of the Force from only having seen the telekinesis and mind trick and then she closes her eyes and learns lightsaber combat like Neo downloading Kung Fu. Then the one time she fucks up, with releasing the awful creature things on Han and Chewie's barge, it turns out to be the exactly right thing to do. There's no struggling for her, she just has everything. Luke had to struggle. Maybe they'll improve in the next films.

 

[Frankster]

As per the novelization, she had access to an old flight simulator that she spent excessive amounts of time with, due to literally not having anything else to do in her spare time.

Aye I remember you educating me about that and have kept it in mind, our prior conversations is why I'm mollified about Rey in general, I've now adopted a wait and see approach so maybe I'll be warming up to her in the next films.
As for why I didn't take her at her word when she said "i'm a pilot", it's because I honestly really pinky swear promise thought not knowing how to fly was going to be a core aspect of her character until she said that, I was sold on the premise that she never was taught anything and what she knew she had to figure out for herself , and was growing to expect that Rey/Finn/Poe would function like the three vikings and tag each other in as the situation requires, so Fin or Poe would have been the ones to fly. I'm gonna be sticking by this because I did not go into the film with preconceptions in this regard and came to that conclusion naturally during my viewing so feel like the film somewhat tricked me in this regard. Or maybe I'm just stupid, I'll let the jury decide on that.

To put it another way, I did not need to hear Rey say "i'm a great mechanic" because that was shown loud and clear. I did not need to hear Luke saying "i'm a pilot" to see he was one, he was clearly comfortable with vehicles of all kind and seemed comfortable in space even when we didn't know what a t-15 skyhopper was.

With Rey it was out of the blue as far as i'm concerned. I guess this is a show and don't tell situation (or something like that), even half a second of Rey in a simulator would have changed my perceptions totally but I was honestly buying into the poor scavenger thing and thus assumed she would have educational deficiencies compared to other characters and had never been in a spaceship or learnt to fly one at any point.
I guess I just expected more then I actually got if that makes sense, I don't give a damn if Rey is the best pilot behind Poe but I don't feel my assumption was made in bad faith nor that I'd have felt differently if Rey had a penis, I'd still have thought it kinda random for the character to go "oh btw i know how to fly!" right before jumping into the falcon.

As for force users passively seeing into the future, I think it's not as straightforward as that but before I side rant: the force doesn't teach you how to use complex machinery or devices you didn't already know how to use. Which is why in my original viewing thinking Rey had no prior teachings, knowing she was force sensitive didn't change my impressions one bit.
Back to force users intuitively knowing the future, I've heard that said before and I always felt it to be a bit weird, way too many Jedi were easily taken by surprise when the clones turned against them which tells this passive isn't as strong as one might think, at very least you need to put some conscious thought into it otherwise it merely translates into a flat skill % increase due to having better reflexes then you should have.
And when you consider duels between Jedi/Sith, if they could all sense the future then this would it almost impossible for a duel to end, so there's something else going on here. I mean heck, what is the difference between a noob Jedi and a seasoned Jedi in this case if they went into a duel? Does one just simply feel the future better then the other and it cancels out the other's precognitive abilities? This just feels a bit weird to me but then this might just be one of the most poorly explained aspects of jedis in general I guess.

-Re dark side users and mind tricks. Bringing up ThatOtherGirls response as it's relevant and similar to what you describe:

I think the dark side mind fuckery is probably harder to resist than the mind trick, it seems to be a much more direct and brutal form of coercion (the dark side of the mind trick, if you will.)

I've never seen a sith use the mind trick in any media so *shrugs* this is a bit of a mystery to me.
In Kotor and certain star wars system powers are classified as light and dark and become easier to use/better if you were of the right alignment but that's of dubious cannon status.
Perhaps the answer could be found in one of the Star Wars rpgs which would likely have rules for Sith and Jedi and how powers are affected by your alignment, but the few Star Wars rps I've dabbled in were with GURPS so wouldn't know.

Either way I do like the idea of sith having a dark side variant of jedi powers. We have sith lightning which seems to be sith only so there is a precedent for different power sets and this reconciles quite nicely with the external knowledge that Anakin was horribad at jedi mind tricks, he became proficient in the dark side of the mind trick instead!

In Empire though the only reason he tortured Han (and likely chewie) was to get Luke to come to his friends aid. Unless I am mistaken I don't think he was looking for any information, just to cause enough pain to get Luke's attention through force sensitivity.

I'll have to rewatch Empire at some point but thought he interrogated them to try to find out Luke's location. My bad if that's not the case.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'll have to rewatch Empire at some point but thought he interrogated them to try to find out Luke's location. My bad if that's not the case.

It was 100% just a trap to bait Luke by letting him feel their pain. Han even notes that they never asked him any questions.

RE: Rey and piloting...I completely agree that an establishing scene would have done a lot more work than blurting out random exposition, but as previously discussed the film was ridiculously crammed for time. It might sound ridiculous to say it, but TFA is a film that would have benefited greatly from a 3.5 hour director's cut.

 

[Megalodon]

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Sure they are 'trained, professional fighter pilots'. Of course we saw what the famed precision of Imperial stormtroopers meant in the original series so I don't think comparing heroes to stormtroopers or other imperial mooks really proves anything.

So by this logic, should we be so hard on Poe for apparently being the ace pilot Sue (as several have in this thread)? After all, "he's only shooting down TIE pilots".

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

Sure they are 'trained, professional fighter pilots'. Of course we saw what the famed precision of Imperial stormtroopers meant in the original series so I don't think comparing heroes to stormtroopers or other imperial mooks really proves anything.

So by this logic, should we be so hard on Poe for apparently being the ace pilot Sue (as several have in this thread)? After all, "he's only shooting down TIE pilots".

If you have to try to ask me to defend someone else's logic your argument must be pretty dead.

I never said he was an ace pilot sue, so that has jack shit to do with me. He's an ace pilot, that's his thing, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[fix-the-spade]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's one of these things that I thought wouldn't even need explaining.

Even without the Emperor and Darth Vader the Empire still has millions (if not billions) of troops and tens of thousands of warships. The war would rage potentially for decades even if the Rebels won every single battle they engaged in, which they clearly don't over the course of the trilogy.

It would have even made a great explanation for Kylo Ren. He wasn't tempted by the Dark Side just because, he was rebelling against the hypocrisy of Luke teaching peace and balance whilst being one of the leaders in the continuing slaughter of millions.

But then it's JJ Abrams producing, don't expect attention to detail when you can make new shit up every thirty seconds.

 

[Cowabungaa]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

To be honest, does it really need to be explained that much? It makes complete sense. The Empire lost its Emperor, a battle and two big space stations. It has an entire empire left. Would it make sense for the Empire to suddenly poof out of existence. Like, the original trilogy never showed the defeat of the Empire. It only showed the Rebel Alliance striking it a very powerful blow. This is just the war continuing.

As for the New Order being suddenly there, yes I'll give you that, that wasn't explained at all. Given, I'm not entirely sure it has to be explained entirely because that way you get bogged down in exposition, but some would be nice. I think J.J. Abrams likes his Mystery Box a bit too much.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

To me it's a glaring plot hole. Episode VII did a very poor job at justifying the Rebel/Empire continuum, whatever they're called now.

To be honest, does it really need to be explained that much? It makes complete sense. The Empire lost its Emperor, a battle and two big space stations. It has an entire empire left. Would it make sense for the Empire to suddenly poof out of existence. Like, the original trilogy never showed the defeat of the Empire. It only showed the Rebel Alliance striking it a very powerful blow. This is just the war continuing.

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

If recent events in the real world have taught us anything it's that when you remove the figurehead of a militant institution, the remainder immediately collapse into peaceful repose.

 

[happyninja42]

That's like doing Godfather 4 because "Um, he just fell off his chair". Nothing about VI's end suggests the war is anything but over.

If recent events in the real world have taught us anything it's that when you remove the figurehead of a militant institution, the remainder immediately collapse into peaceful repose.

Yeah, even the EU novels acknowledge that there are still thousands of Star Destroyers out there, fully manned and armed. I think they were called The Remnant in that timeline? Made sense to me, that they would basically become like Ronin. Masterless warriors looking out for themselves now. Now you would have these various "bandit kingdoms" as they took over localized systems for their own benefit, and established themselves as the new robber barons of the area.

I got the impression from Ep 7 that something roughly like this happened. That they signed the forms to get the Rebellion off their backs, and then slinked off to a quiet system to lick their wounds, and rebuild in secret. Made sense to me.

Sure, they could've explained that you know...in the movie instead of in the novel, and I will forever criticize any film/tv show for making me have to outsource my knowledge of their show, to fully understand their show. It was a weak point in Ep 7, but not an overly huge one for me, and I was more than capable of inferring what likely happened politically in the 30 year gap.

Still, actually saying it would've been nice.