After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[elvor0]

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

Generically suggesting all people concerned with Rey's characterization were sexist would be unfair, you are correct.

Suggesting that a healthy number of people are, however...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.936976-After-getting-and-watching-Force-Awakens-again?page=2#23606165

I can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike Rey for perfectly supportable non-sexist reasons, if you can happily acknowledge that plenty of people dislike her because "get these bitches out of my entertainment".

Well I agree with you, I don't agree with the guy I quoted though, as he was generically casting that allusion.

However! To play devils advocate, while a good portion of those people may well be sexist, I don't believe some of them /are/. Not in the sense that they actually have a problem with women, rather...well people on the internet, especially youtube aren't very good at expressing themselves, and a perceived slight can cause people to react rather crassly. Some of them I don't think are even taking issue with the character being female, as they mention her "whiteness".

I think their problem, or at least what they think is the problem with "feminism" invading Star Wars is that they don't see Rey as a character, so much as a vehicle for girl power, without actually having written a decent character. In their eyes, it's appeasement at the cost of decent writing. If TFA and Rey had been a good character, I don't think there would be so much of an issue.(Except the guys who hang out on Return of Kings...those guys are complete twats) Now, it's unfair to paint the new female lead in RO with that same brush, but after Rey and TFA in general being a bit of a shambles, they're suspicious.

Now, that's not what I think. I think TFA was just poorly written and Rey would've been just as bland had she been male, although it's entirely possible the writer did have a bit of a hard on for Rey as he was writing her, but by no means do I think it was for political or social reasons, writer was just lazy, maybe a bit too excitable. For one, her gender is never bought up during the films, nor did anyone making it make anything of it, she just was. I do think appeasement at the cost of writing or tone is a thing that can happen(New Lara vs Old Lara, although that's because I think the new version is actually flawed in its portrayal of empowerment) but genuine cases are rare, nor do I think that's whats happened here.

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

I've noticed the "sexism" defence popping up a lot when any female characters are criticised.

Just look at the Ghostbusters remake - they've basically won no matter what they do - if people like it then good for them, if they don't then it's clearly because of sexism, and nothing to do with the film itself.

mmm...it really grinds my gears. Even if you've taken the time to deconstruct something, explain reasons why you don't like something that have nothing to do with gender, some lazy ass git stonewalls you with "well you don't like it because you're sexist!"

That Ghostbusters trailer was....*shudder* it was embarrassing to watch. Mind you, the trailer for the original Ghostbusters is surprisingly naff too, so who knows?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Despite the fact she nearly wrecks the Falcon on takeoff, and states explicitly she's flown before just not outside the atmosphere... not necessarily the best pilot ever but she has reasons to know how to fly.

Reasons that are never explained in the movie, and after that rough takeoff she's flying the thing like an ace.

Again, I know it's explained WHY she's so good at flying, but that was in the book. In the movie she actually states that she had no idea how she flew like that.

She knows one part that was added into the Falcon, and companion material also explains she used to sneak aboard the ship at night and putter around it.

I'll give you that, though why they insist on putting stuff that's THIS need to know in the supplementary stuff is beyond me. Say what you will about Lucas, at least you didn't need the books to figure out what the hell was going on.

She fails at first, and also there's hints that she has had training in canon companion material. The movie poorly explains that though. But still... she fails at first.

And then she pulls it off. Still doesn't change the fact it took Luke three movies to pull that off.

Also, Rey was left on that desert planet as a VERY young girl. Know what Jedi Younglings her age were doing as training? Blocking blaster bolts.

Again the whole idea she has more than likely had some training in force usage and has shown to be competent in melee combat. Ren is also hurting from a bowcaster shot, a shot mind you that has been shown to devastate everyone else who's been hit by it.

Again, Young Jedi were never seen doing anything more complex than blocking blasters. Honestly, would YOU want mischievous little kids running around with Telekinesis and mind tricks? That's just asking for problems!

That said, The Clone Wars cartoon DID show even younger kids capable of using Telekinesis, so I kinda have to give you this one.

However, have you ever been trained in using a heavier weapon and then suddenly switched to a lighter one and done well with it? Cause that's what Rey did. She switched from a staff to a weapon that is almost completely made of light. That'd be like a guy who trained with a Claymore switching to a Rapier and still being expected to kick ass.

She has flaws, she gets captured, she screws up trying to help the party escape the freighter and lets loose the carnivorous life forms Han had aboard the ship by accident. See also the almost crashing of the Falcon. Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

Her flaws end up saving the day with Han's shuttle, and if she hadn't been captured Finn would've most likely left well before the resistance attempted to blow up the Starkiller, which most likely would've gone a lot worse without him. And again, after that rough takeoff, she then flew the second most awkwardly designed ship in the galaxy like a damn pro.

Not to mention she was well into rescuing herself when she met up with Finn and Han in the Starkiller base. Luke in his first movie was constantly getting his ass saved by others, even with his big moment with the Death Star.

Not to mention that everyone who meets Rey instantly likes her, while Luke was constantly getting his chops busted by Han in the first movie. (Though I'll forgive the villains on this if only because Strong in the Force = Powerful ally if turned.)

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

The only real reason Rey is called a Mary Sue is because she's a girl. Or just go ahead and call Luke a Mary Sue too; you'd be wrong, but you'd at least not appear to be sexist.

Don't....don't do that. If you liked the character, fine, but don't use the veil of sexism as a political meat shield to discount peoples grievances with a character that is hyper competent beyond reason or in universe logic.

I've noticed the "sexism" defence popping up a lot when any female characters are criticised.

Just look at the Ghostbusters remake - they've basically won no matter what they do - if people like it then good for them, if they don't then it's clearly because of sexism, and nothing to do with the film itself.


Personally I think the Luke = Rey comparison of mary-sue ness is a flawed one, Luke spent 3 films growing into his powers - by the end of IV he could just about get a torpedo down an exhaust (on the 2nd attempt), by the end of Empire he'd had his hand cut off after being brutally outmatched by a dark lord of the sith (after spending the film failing in nearly every task Yoda set him), finally, at the end of Jedi he was truly complete...

Rey needs to be the best pilot ever? Done.
Rey needs to know how to completely repair and optimise a ship? Happy days.
Rey needs to mind-trick someone? Easy-peezy lemon-sqeezy.
Rey needs to beat a powerful Knight of Ren(?!) at both summoning lightsaber then lightsaber combat itself? Not a drama.

The girl has no flaws. Luke had flaws.

I booted up Episode 7 just to recheck (And because I like the movie and I need something to watch while I peel price tags off my mother's birthday gifts and pack them up).

Rey is the 'best' pilot - She nearly pastes herself twice, spends a quarter of their fight skipping the Falcon off sand dunes, makes two semi-impressive turns that the TIE fighters (At least the ones still alive when she makes them) follow easily, then purposefully stalls out allowing Finn to get a shot off. That's it. 'Best' pilot is an absurd stretch. She's, at best, roughly on par with Luke Skywalker, only with an actual reason to be semi-skilled (It's mentioned in movie she's flown before, which is one better then Luke ever gets, outside of EU novels that mention he'd been in a simulator).

Rey knows how to completely repair and optimize a ship - She fixes one system (The hyper drive motivator) twice. Wow.

Rey mind tricks storm troopers with ease - It takes her three tries to get a rather pissed off stormtrooper to do anything. While this is one thing that kind of weirded me out, it's not like she Obi-Wan'd the guy without effort.

Rey beats the head of the Knights of Ren with ease - Rey gets knocked out by Kylo twice. She gets the lightsaber due to fate, flails around for a couple of minutes while she runs from Ben Jr, and then only turns the tables because he's dropped his guard, he's tired, and he's been both stabbed by a lightsaber and gut shot by the in-universe version of an anti-material rifle. The movie practically bends over backwards to give her the advantages she needs to win, even spending half the movie setting the bowcaster shot up.

But sure, easy peezy.

 

[elvor0]

Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

I do feel she that her flaws and capabilities are not well balanced though. She's far more capable than is reasonable or even makes sense given her character, given what the /movie/ shows us. Companion material shouldn't be necessary for the character to work in her primary media form. The movie makes zero allusion to her being force trained prior to now, nor sneaking around the falcon. She definitely has flaws, but she never really has to over come anything, or has any form of character arc or growth, she just kind of is good at all these things in a really short space of time without any justification for it. Ren having being quite badly wounded is a fair justification for why she could beat him, but its not really showcased that well in the movie, it never really feels like his wounds are impeding him, and he's /still/ been trained in the use of the weapon, wheras Rey has not.

Even with melee training, are light sabers not supposed to be weapons that are very and un-wieldly and require Jedi training to utilize? It's not just physical skill that you need; a lightsaber is supposed to be like wielding a great sword without proper force training, yet Rey handles it better than Luke does at the end of ROTJ, where his training has enabled allowed him to wield the sword better due to his improved physical and force capabilities. Finns use of it is slightly less graceful.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Now, that's not what I think. I think TFA was just poorly written and Rey would've been just as bland had she been male, although it's entirely possible the writer did have a bit of a hard on for Rey as he was writing her, but by no means do I think it was for political or social reasons, writer was just lazy, maybe a bit too excitable.

I don't think TFA is particularly poorly written. I don't think it should be winning any Oscars for screenwriting, either, but I don't see overt or damaging problems that I'd attribute to "poor writing". The film's biggest problem is lack of screen time and an abundance of characters. It's a very familiar problem, because it's a problem that haunted the early seasons of Game of Thrones, before "poor writing" grabbed the reins and sent it thundering into absurdity. When the film DOES have time to slow down/breathe, it actually has some very nice moments. There's also some clever dialogue and some nice rapport building between characters, particularly involving Finn.

Which is not to say all lines or plot elements work beautifully, they don't. I simply feel the characterization problems...and there are characterization problems (most prominently with Poe, but also with Finn and Rey...Kylo Ren comes out of the film the most intact and fully realized, likely due to him not having to share a lot of screen time)...are down to "lack of time" and an overstuffed narrative, and not the result of a tin ear for dialogue or an inability to write relatable humans.

The movie makes zero allusion to her being force trained prior to now, nor sneaking around the falcon.

The film shows her being left, while wearing clothing looking suspiciously like that worn by young Padawans, in the care of Unkarr Plutt, who presently owns the Falcon. The film also shows her having a series of cascading visions/flashbacks upon touching Skywalker's saber. Obi-Wan speaks to her. It's intimated she's part of a legacy. There are a ton of contextual clues. I actually take mild umbrage at the assertion that there are "zero allusions" because the film doesn't exposition dump everything the audience needs in the opening crawl. Audiences are not THAT stupid.

She definitely has flaws, but she never really has to over come anything, or has any form of character arc or growth, she just kind of is good at all these things in a really short space of time without any justification for it. Ren having being quite badly wounded is a fair justification for why she could beat him, but its not really showcased that well in the movie, it never really feels like his wounds are impeding him, and he's /still/ been trained in the use of the weapon, wheras Rey has not.

It's a three film series, it stands to reason everyone's arc will be three films long.

As to Ren...I remember it coming up in previous discussions that the film did not adequately showcase his injury, so I paid more attention this most recent watch. The most certainly did. The setup for the bowcaster seemed PAINFULLY obvious this time, to the point of being gratuitous. He doubles over quite spectacularly when shot. He's pounding the blood out and the camera zooms in for a "look, blood!" moment. He looks positively ashen faced, and is sweating copiously. He's also acting borderline unhinged. His fighting style, although not previously established, is ragged. I'm genuinely uncertain as to how much MORE they could provide in terms of clues without it being completely ludicrous.

...yet Rey handles it better than Luke does at the end of ROTJ, where his training has enabled allowed him to wield the sword better due to his improved physical and force capabilities. Finns use of it is slightly less graceful.

Also untrue. She handles it very awkwardly, and they actually took pains to make sure she stabbed with it like it was a staff, reflecting her prior experience with melee combat. Her only real moment of excellence comes after she "touches the Force", which is very much an echo of Episode IV, where Obi-Wan instructs Luke to reach out with the force and he blocks two laser beams without being able to see. Luke had been practicing for the sum total of about 20 seconds of screen time at that juncture. It's extraordinarily in keeping with Star Wars film canon that powerful Force sensitives can do crazy shit whether they've been properly trained or not. The majority of Luke's training had to do with him mastering his feelings and dealing with his anger/fear/doubt. Do we see him doing elaborate lightsaber forms in the swamp? Nope. Do we see him doing Force pull/push reps? Nope. Closest we come is him lifting a rock (which Yoda feels sufficiently prepares him to lift a fucking X-Wing) and doing some cardio with a Frog on his back.

Rey's cardio is probably ok.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Willful ignorance of the facts does not support your assertions.

I do feel she that her flaws and capabilities are not well balanced though. She's far more capable than is reasonable or even makes sense given her character, given what the /movie/ shows us. Companion material shouldn't be necessary for the character to work in her primary media form. The movie makes zero allusion to her being force trained prior to now, nor sneaking around the falcon. She definitely has flaws, but she never really has to over come anything, or has any form of character arc or growth, she just kind of is good at all these things in a really short space of time without any justification for it. Ren having being quite badly wounded is a fair justification for why she could beat him, but its not really showcased that well in the movie, it never really feels like his wounds are impeding him, and he's /still/ been trained in the use of the weapon, wheras Rey has not.

Even with melee training, are light sabers not supposed to be weapons that are very and un-wieldly and require Jedi training to utilize? It's not just physical skill that you need; a lightsaber is supposed to be like wielding a great sword without proper force training, yet Rey handles it better than Luke does at the end of ROTJ, where his training has enabled allowed him to wield the sword better due to his improved physical and force capabilities. Finns use of it is slightly less graceful.

To be fair, Non-Force users HAVE used lightsabers rather effectively before, with the most notable ones being Boba Fett and General Grevious. However, they were both shown to be worse with them than someone trained in the force. (Boba Fett attempted to take on Darth Vader with one and got stomped, while Grevious needed to use a number of programs and modifications to his cybernetics and STILL had to rely on sneak attacks and psychological combat to get an edge.)

Basically, the only non-force users who could use lightsabers effectively were already pretty badass to begin with, and they'd still lose in a straight up fight against trained Jedi or Sith.

Edit: Actually, I'm pretty certain that's part of the reason the TR-8R scene resonated so well. Fin is fighting a Stormtrooper who is using a lightsaber resistant weapon, and ends up getting his ass kicked by said trooper because Finn is using a weapon he has NO experience with, while TR-8R is using one he was trained in using.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Luke never was given any good reason for why all of a sudden he could dog fight with TIE fighters. "I used to bullseye Wamp Rats in my T-16" is not a good reason, as strafe running a target on the ground is very different from dogfighting TIE fighters, which are very freaking fast things, are in the air, and can shoot back at you.

Yeah...not exactly. The earlier T-16 comment? It was said in the expanded material that the T-16 was used as a training vehicle due to having a similar control scheme to the X-Wing. I'm pretty sure that's Lucas explaining that the T-16 was a good explanation for how Luke could dog fight. Except it doesn't, see my earlier point about Wamp Rats =/= TIE fighter.

This guy in particular was very weak minded. It was established, in movie, that the soldiers of the First Order have had all of the individuality and free will stripped away. Finn not directly obeying orders to massacre civilians was a sign that something was wrong with his conditioning.

They were blocking blaster bolts for the three minutes we saw them. I think it's a safe bet to make that they did more than block blaster bolts for 8 hours a day.

So they can't be trusted with telekinesis but they can be trusted with a sword that can easily hack of limbs and heads? I think a lot of responsibility is expected from these kids.

She was getting her ass kicked initially, and she eventually beat a badly wounded, exhausted, emotionally compromised man who was using a defective weapon and hadn't completed his training. Seriously, beating Kylo Ren isn't a very impressive feat.

And they also get Han killed. If she had never gotten captured, Finn wouldn't have gone looking for her, Han wouldn't have encountered Ben, and he wouldn't have gotten killed. Rey got Han Solo killed.

Except she really didn't have much of a plan to get off Starkiller base. She still needed help.

Yeah I don't recall her and Finn getting along swimmingly, and that Han was a little apprehensive at first.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And they also get Han killed. If she had never gotten captured, Finn wouldn't have gone looking for her, Han wouldn't have encountered Ben, and he wouldn't have gotten killed. Rey got Han Solo killed.

She didn't really. Han was there to get the shields down. Rescuing Rey was a secondary consideration. He's not too happy with Finn when he finds out Finn has the opposite set of priorities.

You're correct that she needed help, and she does indeed get rescued (by Chewbacca), but there's no real correlation between "save Rey" and Han dying. Han would have ended up running into Ben one way or the other, because Ben sensed him and came looking.

 

[Erttheking]

And they also get Han killed. If she had never gotten captured, Finn wouldn't have gone looking for her, Han wouldn't have encountered Ben, and he wouldn't have gotten killed. Rey got Han Solo killed.

She didn't really. Han was there to get the shields down. Rescuing Rey was a secondary consideration. He's not too happy with Finn when he finds out Finn has the opposite set of priorities.

You're correct that she needed help, and she does indeed get rescued (by Chewbacca), but there's no real correlation between "save Rey" and Han dying. Han would have ended up running into Ben one way or the other, because Ben sensed him and came looking.

Yeah, but Han only went there in the first place because Finn said that he could bring the shields down. Finn was the one who brought the idea up in the first place, because he wanted to save Rey. Han went there under the (False) assumption that Finn knew the base, a lie Finn told him to save Rey and a lie he would not have told if she wasn't in danger.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yeah, but Han only went there in the first place because Finn said that he could bring the shields down. Finn was the one who brought the idea up in the first place, because he wanted to save Rey. Han went there under the (False) assumption that Finn knew the base, a lie Finn told him to save Rey and a lie he would not have told if she wasn't in danger.

So Finn's pathological insincerity got Han killed. Boy you're really throwing poor Finn under the bus here =D

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah, but Han only went there in the first place because Finn said that he could bring the shields down. Finn was the one who brought the idea up in the first place, because he wanted to save Rey. Han went there under the (False) assumption that Finn knew the base, a lie Finn told him to save Rey and a lie he would not have told if she wasn't in danger.

So Finn's pathological insincerity got Han killed. Boy you're really throwing poor Finn under the bus here =D

Yeah basically Han adopted two kids and they got him killed.

Nice going you two.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yeah basically Han adopted two kids and they got him killed.

Nice going you two.

Adopted two kids and together with his biological kid, they got him killed.

The lesson here is never have kids.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Yeah, but Han only went there in the first place because Finn said that he could bring the shields down. Finn was the one who brought the idea up in the first place, because he wanted to save Rey. Han went there under the (False) assumption that Finn knew the base, a lie Finn told him to save Rey and a lie he would not have told if she wasn't in danger.

So Finn's pathological insincerity got Han killed. Boy you're really throwing poor Finn under the bus here =D

Yeah basically Han adopted two kids and they got him killed.

Nice going you two.

That's a nice alternative interpretation of Episode 7 right there.

Star Wars Episode 7 - The Force Awakens

Three children, jealous of their father's success and legendary star ship, conspire to murder him for the inheritance. The plan runs afoul when one sibling turns against the others to get all the spoils for himself.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Snip

Luke never was given any good reason for why all of a sudden he could dog fight with TIE fighters. "I used to bullseye Wamp Rats in my T-16" is not a good reason, as strafe running a target on the ground is very different from dogfighting TIE fighters, which are very freaking fast things, are in the air, and can shoot back at you.

Yeah...not exactly. The earlier T-16 comment? It was said in the expanded material that the T-16 was used as a training vehicle due to having a similar control scheme to the X-Wing. I'm pretty sure that's Lucas explaining that the T-16 was a good explanation for how Luke could dog fight. Except it doesn't, see my earlier point about Wamp Rats =/= TIE fighter.

Luke also had people speaking up for him in favor of his piloting abilities, specifically Biggs who WAS the Rebellion's best pilot at the time, and the Rebellion had a desperate need for manpower. It was basically the scene in Indipendence Day where the crop duster pilot got recruited to fight the aliens.

Not to mention, AGAIN FOR THE UMPTEENTH FREAKING TIME, Luke was still nearly shot down on numerous occasions. Once by a TIE Fighter, and again by Vader. So Luke could dogfight, but he wasn't particularly good at it in his first going. The main thing he needed to do was hit a 2 meter wide, stationary target which he stated he could do.

This guy in particular was very weak minded. It was established, in movie, that the soldiers of the First Order have had all of the individuality and free will stripped away.

Still doesn't change the fact that a person who was at most barely out of their toddler years AND was mind wiped was pulling off a move that Luke couldn't do till Episode 6.

Seriously, even KOTOR had higher standards than that, and Revan was NO youngling trainee.

Finn not directly obeying orders to massacre civilians was a sign that something was wrong with his conditioning.

Your point?

They were blocking blaster bolts for the three minutes we saw them. I think it's a safe bet to make that they did more than block blaster bolts for 8 hours a day.

Still doesn't change the fact that teaching a bunch of kids how to manipulate the weak minded like that would be an INCREDIBLY stupid thing to do. I gave you telekinesis but manipulating another being's mind is another matter entirely. (Hammering in the ethics ALONE would take awhile. Most Jedi actually didn't like using this unless absolutley necessary. And yes, I remember the Deathsticks scene, hence why I said MOST)

So they can't be trusted with telekinesis but they can be trusted with a sword that can easily hack of limbs and heads? I think a lot of responsibility is expected from these kids.

Younglings and trainees were provided training sabers that could only stun at most, or things like wooden training swords. A youngling has to MAKE their own lightsaber as part of their ascension to higher ranks. So no, they never had swords that could hack off limbs.

She was getting her ass kicked initially, and she eventually beat a badly wounded, exhausted, emotionally compromised man who was using a defective weapon and hadn't completed his training. Seriously, beating Kylo Ren isn't a very impressive feat.

Honestly, I wouldn't call kicking Ren's ass at his best an impressive feat. Still doesn't change the fact that she got a second wind by believing in herself REALLY hard. Who knew all you needed to be a great Jedi would be having Shia's "Just DO IT" speech going on repeat?

(Actually, does anyone with good editing skills wanna put that speech into the scene where Rey got her second wind? It'd probably be hilarious.)

And they also get Han killed. If she had never gotten captured, Finn wouldn't have gone looking for her, Han wouldn't have encountered Ben, and he wouldn't have gotten killed. Rey got Han Solo killed.

If Finn hadn't decided to go, Han would've most likely ended up going with just Chewie anyway. The Starkiller had defenses that needed to go down before it could be destroyed. The Resistance knew that, it was the primary reason he went to the planet to begin with. Han was dead one way or another.

Except she really didn't have much of a plan to get off Starkiller base. She still needed help.

Bullcrap she needed help. A "strong, independent" woman like her? She'd gotten out by mindtricking a Stormtrooper and was wandering all over the damn place without an alarm being raised. She would've gotten out eventually.

Yeah I don't recall her and Finn getting along swimmingly, and that Han was a little apprehensive at first.

Dude, Finn was practically proposing to her at one point, and all the ire in that relationship came from her side of things. Yes, Han may have been apprehensive at first, but it wasn't long before he was giving her blaster lessons and offering her a job on the Falcon.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I'll say this much about TFA, its a great movie. Its not perfect, and there's a lot of things that should have been covered better by the narrative that aren't pieces of the story to be told at a later date in the films. But I think a lot of the errors made in narrative were on the side of caution because of the heavy-handed exposition Lucas bogged the prequels down with.
Overall it was a good movie and I think if we look back at the trilogy once its said and done most of the arguments against Rey will seem silly when compared to the overall evidence.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I'll say this much about TFA, its a great movie. Its not perfect, and there's a lot of things that should have been covered better by the narrative that aren't pieces of the story to be told at a later date in the films. But I think a lot of the errors made in narrative were on the side of caution because of the heavy-handed exposition Lucas bogged the prequels down with.
Overall it was a good movie and I think if we look back at the trilogy once its said and done most of the arguments against Rey will seem silly when compared to the overall evidence.

At the rate it's going, I liked the prequels better. Say what you will about Lucas' writing, but at least he actually built up his universe. New aliens, new droids, new weapons, new worlds, and a look at what the galaxy was like before the Empire. Sure the writing wasn't stellar, but at least he was freaking TRYING to keep this stuff fresh.

Episode 7 was pretty much Episode 4 with a new paint job, and worse characters. (Exceptions being the little ball droid and Finn.) It plays it all too safe, and suffers for it. Not to mention, while Lucas' exposition WAS heavy handed, at least I didn't sit in the freaking theater going "Wait, what's going on? Why are these guys doing this? Who is that?"

I'll take heavy exposition, over bare bones exposition, especially when the situation calls for it.

Edit: Actually, your comment on exposition is doubly funny. With all the questions still hanging around everything, Episode 8 is almost guarnteed to be exposition heavy as all hell by NECESSITY!

And you really think the arguments against Rey are gonna be silly, when she already makes Luke and Anakin from their first outings look like chumps while her only real opposition could be renamed Darth Linkin Park?

In the immortal words of the Mad God, "OPTIMISM! I love it! Even at the end you make me laugh! I'm lying. That wasn't funny at all."

Luke never needed the other movies to flesh him out as a character, and even Anakin was pretty well established in Episode 1. If Rey needs multiple movies for us to figure out what her deal is, the writers have screwed up more than George himself ever did. (Though in this case, we can safely lay the blame of this one firmly at that dipshit Abrams feet due to his fetish for that damn mystery box.)

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Still doesn't change the fact that a person who was at most barely out of their toddler years AND was mind wiped was pulling off a move that Luke couldn't do till Episode 6.

Didn't do. Luke never attempts the trick until episode 6, he never had a reason to. You have absolutely no reason from the films to supposed it is a particularly difficult trick.

Your point?

The trick is explicitly stated to be most effective and easiest to pull of against the exceptionally weak willed, such as a person that has been brainwashed since birth.

Honestly, I wouldn't call kicking Ren's ass at his best an impressive feat. Still doesn't change the fact that she got a second wind by believing in herself REALLY hard. Who knew all you needed to be a great Jedi would be having Shia's "Just DO IT" speech going on repeat?

Yoda. Yoda knew that, and explicitly states so to Luke when he fails to lift the X-Wing. Like it or not, that is canon.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I didn't sit in the freaking theater going "Wait, what's going on? Why are these guys doing this? Who is that?"

Neither did I, or anyone else I know. While the film definitely suffered a mild exposition gap, there were hardly leaps of extraordinary intuition required.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Didn't do. Luke never attempts the trick until episode 6, he never had a reason to. You have absolutely no reason from the films to supposed it is a particularly difficult trick.

So then why didn't Luke try it when he was in the Death Star and was trying to fake a prisinor transfer? He had more traing that Rey at that point, AND he knew the mind trick was a thing.

The trick is explicitly stated to be most effective and easiest to pull of against the exceptionally weak willed, such as a person that has been brainwashed since birth.

So the point behind me even bringing up that scene has been completley missed. Joy.

Yoda. Yoda knew that, and explicitly states so to Luke when he fails to lift the X-Wing. Like it or not, that is canon.

Yoda knew that, Luke couldn't believe it until he saw it with his own eyes, and Rey had been using the force for all of a couple hours and didn't even know it was even a thing till the day before.

It's canon, but Rey has no reason to think it could help like that. Not to mention the only time that second wind was seen in use was when Luke almmost gave into his anger in Ep6.

I didn't sit in the freaking theater going "Wait, what's going on? Why are these guys doing this? Who is that?"

Neither did I, or anyone else I know. While the film definitely suffered a mild exposition gap, there were hardly leaps of extraordinary intuition required.

Well way to go then. I left the theater wondering why those 5 planets that got blown up were supposed to be of any importance, and why the hell the ENTIRE Republic Fleet was stationed around them as well as how they could fit enough ships to police a significant chunk of the galaxy without completely blotting out the skies.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Episode 7 was pretty much Episode 4 with a new paint job...

I really find that argument to be reductivist at best. There are parallels to Ep.IV, and callbacks, but its not a carbon copy. The hero's journey monomyth follows pretty much the same plot, we all know this already and know that the Star Wars story is based on it. There's a lot in TFA that looks similar to ANH but its also different and those differences are subtle, and kind of subverting the previous movie in a way. The First Order looks like the Empire, until you dig down and realize they're kids compared to the Empire of EpIV. Name one character in who's in the First Order that looks like they're over 40, aside from Snoke who's an alien and has no comparable character. Contrasted with the entire Death Star military council and Grand Moff Tarkin, all of whom are more than likely past 45 or older. We've got similar protagonists, yes but thats basically the monomyth at play. The Starkiller base is there, and yes its a bigger version than the Death Star. My argument is that it fits within the idea that the First Order are a bunch of kids playing wannabe Empire and end up overcompensating. They have the look but they're not quite the Empire.
And there's Jakku, yeah the desert world. Its kinda iconic and part of the myth of Star Wars, it would almost feel out of place if one didn't end up on a desert planet at some point during the story. Lucas revisited Tattooine in the prequels, the new movies just decided not to use Tattooine as the basis for Rey.
Rey also is nowhere near a parallel to Luke. She spends most of the movie actively trying to not get involved in this stuff, only doing so because she ends up having little choice in that regard. Up until her capture, all she wanted was to get away from all this and back to her crappy life on Jakku, not because she wants to be there but rather because she wants to be somewhere that her parents (assumption) can find her. She ends up giving in and realizing she is part of the greater universe and there's no going back. Contrasted to Luke, well Luke was a farmboy who couldn't wait to get off his planet and become part of the larger universe.

If one can't see the differences in the movie, despite the parallels, then one isn't taking in the whole picture. I would go on but I've got other things to do. I'm not saying you have to like the movie, but please do make a better argument than a reductive take on how all hero's journey's follow the same path.