My only problem with Skyrim is that the actual quests were a bit more bland than Oblivion's. I had a lot fewer moments where I would finish a quest going WOW!
However when you were just diving into random dungeons and exploring. There were a lot of dungeons where I would go through a wide variety of foes. Like the one where I started in a cave fighting bandits, which then transitioned into a Dwenmer ruin with centurions that was overrun with Falmer on the lower floors.
I meant 3 enemy factions. Like I said I have gone through Bandits (with archers and swordsman), Dwenmer (centurions, spider things, ect.), then Falmer (with their bug pet things) in the same dungeon. Sure oblivion had a few of these instances where you had several types of foe in the same dungeon but Skyrim had far more of them.
Not saying that it makes Skyrim a perfect game but it made it a better in my mind and kept dungeon diving interesting for me.
I understand that criticism is always and always will be valid, but starting a thread to more or less decry things about a game you don't like in the hopes that they will change when they probably won't is kind of counter-productive.
I'm coming at Skyrim from a different angle, personally. I'm not looking for mobs or gripping combat or even a more immediate crafting system. Some people might actually want a more arcade-ish slant to be applied to an Elder Scrolls title - and that's valid. I've played other games where crafting was as simple as buying shit from a vendor and putting it together on your own. I've played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, so I do get why some people would prefer this form of combat over Skyrim's. I've played my share of MMOs, in which smart devs make sure every little corner is packed with groups of enemies waiting to pounce on you.
I agree about some of the criticisms being caused by an improper understanding of the game. If you're picking up Skyrim and expect a loot hunt or a killfest, you'd better start looking elsewhere. Skyrim (and indeed, most ES titles) have never been about mobs. Enemies, unless expected by the normal process of a questline or dungeon, are chance encounters.
Wolves don't attack humans unless they're seriously hungry. Assuming there's no shortage of elk and deer in Skyrim, this could explain why you only spot two or three aggressive wolves, and not, say, an entire freaking pack. Similarly, most bandits seem to be smart enough to hole up in abandoned forts, considering the Empire's zero-tolerance policy on crime.
You can't play an Elder Scrolls game for its mechanics. You have to play it for its lore, for the way the world is fleshed out around you. The irony is that it succeeds more at this than some of the more expansive MMOs out there, seeing as World of Warcraft's fiction soon crumbles in the face of the need to keep looking for better loot or to hunt down that one item that's been reccomended to you by a guildmate or a pubber. Who actually takes time to read quest briefings in WoW? Almost nobody.
On the other hand, most of those who enjoy playing Skyrim will take the time to let NPCs speak their lines or to otherwise respond to them in a believable manner. Skyrim's not about racking up stats (although it certainly can be played this way), so playing it as such can potentially rob you of some of the game's fun.
The funny thing is, most of the complaints I've seen in this thread can be fixed with mods. You've got an issue with the way character creation and progression is handled in the game? Well, certain mods allow you to replicate Oblivion's class and levelling system to the letter. The wild outdoors feel empty? Try the War Zones mod or one of the several monster mods. If enemy behaviour bothers you, there's means to overhaul everything from Dwemer Centurions to your humblest skeever.
If you sit there and complain, you obviously won't get your money's worth. If you take matters into your own hands and apply a few mods, you're likely to find what you're looking for. If you're playing on a console, well, I hate to say this, but Skyrim is predominantly built for PCs. Yes, the interface is consolized, but the modular aspect of the game is a rather clear indication that the player is more or less meant to try and complement the core experience with user-made plugins of his or her choice. You can't do that on consoles, ergo, your enjoyment of Skyrim is impaired.
As to Dawnguard and Hearthfire ruining the game entirely, I really can't back that up in any significant fashion. I'm playing on PC, and my Vampire Lord hasn't run into a single hitch.
You can't play an Elder Scrolls game for its mechanics. You have to play it for its lore, for the way the world is fleshed out around you. The irony is that it succeeds more at this than some of the more expansive MMOs out there, seeing as World of Warcraft's fiction soon crumbles in the face of the need to keep looking for better loot or to hunt down that one item that's been reccomended to you by a guildmate or a pubber. Who actually takes time to read quest briefings in WoW? Almost nobody.
I love the way Bethesda makes the world.
-Goes into some ruin
-Find a dead body smashed by some rocks with its hand out
-Finds another dead body next to it, with its hand out also, holding onto the other persons hand.
And when I see these things, I immediately create some story in my head about what must have happened, best friends? lovers?
I can imagine when whatever attack that caused the rock to crush the first person happened, their best friend decided to stay with them in their final hours comforting them, then not being able to bear leaving their friend/lover there, they decided to die there with them, not being able to live without them.
Or there was one in a Bandit cave where some dead body was trapped in a bale of hay, his arm reaching out trying to grab a bottle of ale. I can imagine it was some guy who betrayed the bandit gang, and they threw him in there for it, and he spent his last days just out of reach of something to drink, slowly starving to death.
Bethesda tells so many things without ever needing a quest, or a note, or someone mentioning it.
I missed that a lot in Fallout New vegas, it was one of several things that contributed to the overall dullness of New Vegas's world, everything was just another radscorpion den, or coyote den. sure there were dead people in them, but nothing in any meaningful way that told a story, they just looked like randomly placed dead bodies.
Tim Cain of Fallout fame even commented on it.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/09/05/fallout-1-and-2-dev-on-storytelling-and-fallout-3-vs-new-vegas/
-Goes into some ruin
-Find a dead body smashed by some rocks with its hand out
-Finds another dead body next to it, with its hand out also, holding onto the other persons hand.
And when I see these things, I immediately create some story in my head about what must have happened. best friends? lovers?
I can imagine when whatever attack that caused the rock to crush the first person happened, their best friend decided to stay with them in their final hours comforting them, then not being able to bear leaving their friend/lover there, they decided to die there with them,.
Tim Cain of Fallout fame even commented on it.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/09/05/fallout-1-and-2-dev-on-storytelling-and-fallout-3-vs-new-vegas/
Most of the Elder Scrolls story telling is told through things like that, and through symbolism, and allegory.
Most people will never understand how the statue of Talos in Whiterun, and how the shrine of Akatosh of connected, because they never take the time to look at them, to see how similar they are, to see the symbolism they provide.
Most people are use to Bioware's story telling in Dragon Age, or Mass Effect, where they had you everything on a silver platter in dialog, cutscenes, and the codex, most people never take the time to stop and actually look at the world, which is why Skyrim feels empty to them.
...To be like Dragon's Dogma. Seriously, am I the only one who thought it did everything Skyrim done but better? (with the exception of the lore. I love me some TES lore.)
Hey look, its a continuation of the other thread. YAAA
Not being additions
Actually... only the first two out of the 5 listed were not possible additions. While not specifics, the last three were in fact asking for things to be added in order to eliminate those issues.
That may be but some people acknowledge the problems and still love the game. That's an Elder Scrolls staple, after all. When you don't at least demonstrate some kind of understanding of why that is even if you still think it's dumb, it kind of makes it look like it just went over your head. If you find this thread refreshing you should come here more often, we have three of these a week and each one is more refreshing than the last.
I do confess... The underlined segment does go over my head. I dont quite get what youre talking about. What is this staple of TES? Or are you saying that having irrational illogical and unjustified fandom is a staple? I sort of doubt that, because if your pointing to a games merits, pointing to the fans of the game is a really irrelevant point in its favor.
As for Over the head? No. I do get what you are saying there it might seem that way. However, the point of my addition to the thread was a snarky response. There were already ample examples of the problems with skyrim from others, so seconding others voiced opinions would not have really added much for my part. I can do the same too.. but god knows I am already too long winded and willing to write thesis long posts. Last thing I need is to have reason to write MOAR!
Now as for the rest of this quote...I do beg to differ on the refreshing thing. Were you here say September 2011- oh about March of 2012? This place was inundated with Skyrim love. Hell it actually made me thankful the ME3 blew up the way it did just for a change of pace. Sure every thread invariably generates some negativity, but Anything from the TES series on this forum is treated much in the same way that insulting Christianity/religion is on this forum.
Dark Souls: ""IT'S HARD SO IT'S GOOD" wow look how dumb Dark Souls fanboys are". See how annoying that is?
Fair enough. Generalizations can be annoying. Actually for me what makes Dark Souls the 2011 RPG of the year is not the difficulty. I like that factor of it, but its not why it was the best RPG of 2011. What makes it so is something people really do not mention or pay attention to about that franchise. the "Role Playing" element of that game is Character building. In the Souls game, through the sheer simplicity of its leveling mechanics It allows you to truly craft your char to be exactly how you want it to be. By simply using leveling points to reinforce base stats it gives you that freedom to specialize or hybridize and it is even to a point where you can see very clear performance improvements with even just the addition of a single level. Couple that factor with the fact it has by far and away the best overall combat system of ANY RPG (again even if it is simple. Less in this case is DEFINITELY more) and having the leveling and combat systems work so beautifully in unison is why the Souls games make for the best RPG series of this console generation. Again, that is merely opinion, but just wanted to take the time to illustrate that the love for the Souls games is not entirely just centered around the difficulty.
I'm very curious to learn how Bethesda is adversely affecting ALL RPGs other than by making a game that you don't like.
Second part first. I think you misunderstand me. First and foremost as a gamer, my core is right in the heart of RPGs. From the early days of playing Final fantasy 1 when it was new, and getting free copy of dragon WARRIOR for Nintendo power subscription, to today when I can say I have effectively beaten every non MMO Final fantasy, have delved into over 100 MMORPG worlds, Played through not only the best RPGs over the last 25 years, but even some of the worst. "Crystalis, Mindbrain, SagaFrontier, Unlimited Saga, Gothic 3, Last remnant, Two Worlds, etc. ad nausea. The reason I bring this up is that you most certainly misunderstand me.
I WANT to like TES. As someone who lives for RPG content, it is exactly the sort of thing I want to see successful and good and more of. I want big open worlds. I want that feel of a single player MMO, I WANT the Bethesda RPGs to be good. THIS is the reason I speak ill of Bethesda. They arent. Going back to Morrowind, That in and of itself was a uninteresting mess of a game that practically begged you to stop playing it. I know that once you got beyond a certain point in it, that falls away, but that takes a VERY hefty investment of time and hoping against hope it will become entertaining. This console generation the Bethesda RPGs has been an overwhelming mass of copy pasta games, resulting in buggy, insufficiently tested products that if any other developer other than valve would willingly push out to the public in that state, there would be torches and pitchforks involved. Then there is the business model of DLC for profit that Bethesda has taken to a new level. To have the audacity to charge gamers in essence 10$ for a DLC for what amounts to an hours worth of content is incredibly insulting. Then to purposely repackage it as a "GOTY" type game to go back and essentially charge full price for the whole product, Is even more so.
And that is why I point to what Bethesda has done that effects ALL RPG development. Look at the state of the industry. It does not take much observation of the industry to understand how the industry works right now. Gamers constantly complain about developers "not taking any risks" and "playing it safe". And how do they do that? By doing not what works, or what is good, but what sells. So if you have a game like Skyrim that was wrongly heralded as a revelation to the gaming world, and managed to push RPGs back to the top to rub shoulders with the Lauded FPS franchises in terms of popularity, that invariably trickles down and what that will result in is other developers further emulating bethesda. And when For the current console generation you have a company that has consistently pushed out bland, uninteresting games with regurgitated narrative tropes, Abused assets and packaged into buggy and game breaking clusterfucks those are NOT the traits RPGs should be emulating. However, because it was so unjustifiably successful, that is exactly what you see. Exactly in the same way that MMOs after WoW started to emulate all parts of the game especially the bad parts (Hotkey combat, Copy Pasta "set pieces" and lifted story arcs from other media) so too has Bethesdas very bad habits already started to influence the development of RPGs as a whole.
So yeah, its not about what I like or not. I WANT to like Bethesda RPGs because I can always use another good RPG. However, that isnt what Bethesda makes. And because its clear to devs/publishers that Bethesda is popular, successful, and safe, they are now the go to role model for almost every Large scale RPG and you can already see the influences very clearly.
If Bethesda was a car manufacturer, they would make awesome cars
Now that I have to disagree with. I can see the russian reference. However, I think of them more like Chery International Automotive
http://cheryinternational.com/
Poorly and cheaply copying other reused ideas resulting in a dangerous product that shows no hint of imagination or even innovation, that has made more money than it ever should have. Though that is an opinion. However it at least seems more rooted in logic than suggesting a company that knowingly pushes out incomplete, buggy products would make awesome cars.
Now, you are more than welcome to respond. I would not have spent this much effort writing all this out had it not been for being quoted and it being an extension of the former disagreement. I do not see a lot of point to continue on when these are opinions and those opinions wont be swayed no matter what is presented. When you quote me, and you will, Ill read what you have to say in response, but as for you and I, we fully understand the others position so its really a waste of time and effort to continue it. Nothing is gained by continually butting heads over this difference of opinion, and a whole lot of value is lost.. Namely time, of which I personally really dont have a lot to spare. (part of why my backlog is shamefully huge now, even WITH losing my steam account thanks to their unreasonable demands and customer abuse.
Most of the Elder Scrolls story telling is told through things like that, and through symbolism, and allegory.
Most people will never understand how the statue of Talos in Whiterun, and how the shrine of Akatosh of connected, because they never take the time to look at them, to see how similar they are, to see the symbolism they provide.
Most people are use to Bioware's story telling in Dragon Age, or Mass Effect, where they had you everything on a silver platter in dialog, cutscenes, and the codex, most people never take the time to stop and actually look at the world, which is why Skyrim feels empty to them.
That's a damn shame. I like how everything comes together, visually. I like how climbing up to the Throat of the World or Bleak Falls Barrow actually makes me feel *cold* - moreso since I'm playing as an Argonian; poor lizardfolk stuck in Fantasy Sweden - and I enjoy how the color balance more or less sells the idea that a "warm" summer day in Skyrim is maybe somewhere in the late sixties or early seventies (Fahrenheit). The warmest spot in Skyrim is probably Riften, unless there's deciduous trees north of that city that I just can't see.
Depending on a codex is a valid way to play, but I don't really appreciate it. It divorces the story from the game, more or less placing the lore into one big easily digestible chunk that anyone who's focused on the grind can safely ignore.
Still, there's always someone who'll take Bethesda's approach too far. Dark Souls has intense combat and provides a pretty fun grind, but the story structure is abysmal. From Software seems to be content with just dangling minuscule shards of exposition here and there and only weakly trying to tie everything together into something cohesive. Bethesda RPGs manage that "dispersion" of the lore, but it also congeals into something tangible.
1) Why does the enemny killcam anynoy everyone so much, ya were going to die anyways and I think is fairly funny (I think I DO remember a little problem or so with it, the so called insantant kill before you are able to do anything at all... but really, Skyrim is so easy that it dosnt matters that much)
2)Meh
3)Meh
4) I dont get it
5) I never saw what was wrong with the menus.
6)I personally didnt saw what was wrong with the plot. I liked it. Simple, but fuctional. Better than the boring as hell history heave Bioware games anyway.
This is all coming from someone who started the Elder Scrolls series with Skyrim, and Skyrim only, so I am not some kind of retarded blind fanboy or anything like that. Also, all of what I said was my opinion (this is always a necesary thing to say).
I honestly dont see whats wrong with Skyrim, its a good game. Its not uber spectacular but it does its job very well... I guess it could have been longer, but thats kind of streching it, every single game (and movie, or anything really) that I liked I obviously would have liked it even more if it lasted longer, but it has to end eventually so I dont consider it a true fault of the game itself...
That begin said... It IS quite a buggy game. I had to use the console a fair number of times to get thorougt the missions. I guess this is a true con Should be fixed. Also the game is too fucking easy. Otherwise, its a good game 8/10 IMO.
Less criticisms about it's "Not an RPG" or "Boring Dragon Fights" or "It's not an Elder Scrolls game!" or "It has a bad story/ending" or "It's not MY game wahhhhhh!"
All Skyrim needs is for those people to go away.
Also, enemies must lose their ability to perform insta-kill animations on the Player.
EDIT: I meant specifically THOSE criticisms, most of those ones come down to whining and moaning about how this game isn't perfect whilst perfectly valid criticisms are shoved aside.
6)I personally didnt saw what was wrong with the plot. I liked it. Simple, but fuctional. Better than the boring as hell history heave Bioware games anyway.
You would be surprised how much more to the plot there is.
Within the Elder scroll Universe there exist these things called The Towers, the towers are a series of mythic echos of the universe that hold Mundus from falling into Oblivion.
Each Elder Scrolls game has been about the fall of a tower, except Arena.
-Daggerfall had the fall of Brass-Tower, also called Numidium
-Morrowind had the fall of Red-Tower also called Red Mountain
-Oblivion had the fall of White-Gold tower
-Skyrim had the fall of Snow-Tower
Every time a tower falls it makes the barrier between the mortal realm and Oblivion less stable, Dagon was only able to invade in Oblivion because the Mythic Dawn Cult tricked The Empire into getting the Nerevarine to free the heart of Lorkhan which deactivated Red-Mountain.
The fall of the towers is also responsible for Alduin's return, the weakening of the barrier allowed Alduin to escape the time-prison he was trapped in.
Alduin's defeat at the hands of the Dovahkiin is actually one of the worst things possible, Alduin's job is to eat the world at times end, something he has done countless time over.
However with Alduin defeated there is a chance that when this universe dies, Alduin wont come back to eat to to allow the next one to take its place.
In effect The Dovahkiin royally buttfucked the entire universe by sending into a final and permanent death.
The Entire Elder Scrolls series is actually a never ending series of the heroes actually putting the world in a worse off situation then it was before.
.
.
Also akatosh is Lorkhan, who is also known as Shor, Alduin was able to enter Sovengarde because he is shor's son.
6)I personally didnt saw what was wrong with the plot. I liked it. Simple, but fuctional. Better than the boring as hell history heave Bioware games anyway.
You would be surprised how much more to the plot there is.
Within the Elder scroll Universe there exist these things called The Towers, the towers are a series of mythic echos of the universe that hold Mundus from falling into Oblivion.
Each Elder Scrolls game has been about the fall of a tower, except Arena.
-Daggerfall had the fall of Brass-Tower, also called Numidium
-Morrowind had the fall of Red-Tower also called Red Mountain
-Oblivion had the fall of White-Gold tower
-Skyrim had the fall of Snow-Tower
Every time a tower falls it makes the barrier between the mortal realm and Oblivion less stable, Dagon was only able to invade in Oblivion because the Mythic Dawn Cult tricked The Empire into getting the Nerevarine to free the heart of Lorkhan which deactivated Red-Mountain.
The fall of the towers is also responsible for Alduin's return, the weakening of the barrier allowed Alduin to escape the time-prison he was trapped in.
Alduin's defeat at the hands of the Dovahkiin is actually one of the worst thigns possible, Alduin's job is to eat the world at times end, somethign he has done ocuntless time over.
However with Alduin defeated there is a chance that when this unvierse dies, Alduion wont come back to eat to to allow the next one to take its place.
In effect The Dovahkiin royally buttfucked the entire universe by sending into a final and determinant death.
The Entire Elder Scrolls series is actually a never ending series of the heroes actually putting the world in a worse off situation then it was before.
.
.
Also akatosh is Lorkhan, who is also known as Shor, Alduin was able to enter Sovengarde because he is shor's son.
Yeah... you see now why I hate Bioware games. I am just not that interested in this whole thing. Althougt reading it now was actually a bit interesting. Oh well. I guess it must be a good experience for those that played all 5 games in the series... But I juust played Skyrim, have no intentio of going back i tha past. Its good enough right now. Still, thank for proving theres plot in Skyrim/The elder scrolls as a wholeeeeeeee
All Skyrim needs is to fully fuse with Dark Souls to create the perfect Western RPG. Although we need to tweak that fusion to get the best dominant genes....METAL GEAR....nah.
All Skyrim needs is to fully fuse with Dark Souls to create the perfect Western RPG. Although we need to tweak that fusion to get the best dominant genes....METAL GEAR....nah.
So we've been giving Nirn the shaft ever since Daggerfall?! Holy shit.
I mean, I knew about Dragon Breaks and I did know about Numidium and the Red Mountain, but does that mean Bethesda are setting Nirn up for some kind of apocalyptic endgame in a future project?
3. Join/Oppose the Thalmor.
- Also fewer assholes. It seemed that the leader of every faction betrayed me or got killed by some traitor.
4. Make the werewolf/vampire choice balanced.
- Not sure if Dawnguard fixed this 'cos I stopped playing.
5. Wider variety of enemies not just Falmer; bandits; Draugr and the occasional vampire.
- Remember when that skeletal dragon came out of the ground in Labyrinthian? That.
6. Not making us the leader of a guild for no damn reason.
- You need to perform magic to get into Winterhold's College but no more to become the archmage.
7. The ability to actually respond to people's requests to have you enchant their weapon or mix them a potion. If Hearthfire allows you to open your own home wouldn't the next logical step be opening a shop instead of just letting the player's spouse do it?
8. Having the player's actions effect the world. You're the Dragonborn, Archmage, Leader of three guilds, Thane of everywhere and hero of the Stormcloaks/Imperials yet no one gives a fuck.
- Adoring Fan?
9. More random world events. The spontaneous robberies were cool. I also liked the assassins that came after you occasionally. The dragons appearing and killing quest NPCs were not.
- More personalised RWEs:
X Having your house broken into.
X Your spouse murdered.
X Your follower kidnapped.
So we've been giving Nirn the shaft ever since Daggerfall?! Holy shit.
I mean, I knew about Dragon Breaks and I did know about Numidium and the Red Mountain, but does that mean Bethesda are setting Nirn up for some kind of apocalyptic endgame in a future project?
I don't know how to take that. That's basically what my post was but it's also exactly what this thread is. I was responding to what you said, am I not supposed to do that?
Not being additions
Actually... only the first two out of the 5 listed were not possible additions. While not specifics, the last three were in fact asking for things to be added in order to eliminate those issues.
I guess not sucking is technically an addition if you want to bring the lawyers into it. But it's obvious you were not trying to list helpful additions.
I do confess... The underlined segment does go over my head. I dont quite get what youre talking about. What is this staple of TES? Or are you saying that having irrational illogical and unjustified fandom is a staple? I sort of doubt that, because if your pointing to a games merits, pointing to the fans of the game is a really irrelevant point in its favor.
As for Over the head? No. I do get what you are saying there it might seem that way. However, the point of my addition to the thread was a snarky response. There were already ample examples of the problems with skyrim from others, so seconding others voiced opinions would not have really added much for my part. I can do the same too.. but god knows I am already too long winded and willing to write thesis long posts. Last thing I need is to have reason to write MOAR!
Now as for the rest of this quote...I do beg to differ on the refreshing thing. Were you here say September 2011- oh about March of 2012? This place was inundated with Skyrim love. Hell it actually made me thankful the ME3 blew up the way it did just for a change of pace. Sure every thread invariably generates some negativity, but Anything from the TES series on this forum is treated much in the same way that insulting Christianity/religion is on this forum.
You're right, the way I said that was confusing. Let me start over. Many of the fans acknowledge the problems and still love The Elder Scrolls despite them. So they're not as fucking dumb as you make them out to be. I understand why some people don't like The Elder Scrolls. After all, look at this long list of flaws! Look at this ninety page thesis! The horror! What I'm asking you to understand is that I like the game anyway, and that I think the appeal of the game is worth overlooking even a long list of flaws to explore. Just because I don't agree with you about the significance of your many, many criticisms doesn't mean I'm fucking delusional and I'm sure you would not appreciate being characterized that way if our situation was reversed.
The fans are not a point for or against the game which is why you should not have brought them into it in the first place.
I remember the hype but that has long passed. And even during that span this website has never been as one sided about The Elder Scrolls as you say.
Fair enough. Generalizations can be annoying. Actually for me what makes Dark Souls the 2011 RPG of the year is not the difficulty. I like that factor of it, but its not why it was the best RPG of 2011. What makes it so is something people really do not mention or pay attention to about that franchise. the "Role Playing" element of that game is Character building. In the Souls game, through the sheer simplicity of its leveling mechanics It allows you to truly craft your char to be exactly how you want it to be. By simply using leveling points to reinforce base stats it gives you that freedom to specialize or hybridize and it is even to a point where you can see very clear performance improvements with even just the addition of a single level. Couple that factor with the fact it has by far and away the best overall combat system of ANY RPG (again even if it is simple. Less in this case is DEFINITELY more) and having the leveling and combat systems work so beautifully in unison is why the Souls games make for the best RPG series of this console generation. Again, that is merely opinion, but just wanted to take the time to illustrate that the love for the Souls games is not entirely just centered around the difficulty.
I am not as excited about the concept behind Dark Souls as I always have been about The Elder Scrolls but it looks fantastic. I expect to play it soon and I expect to really enjoy it.
I'm very curious to learn how Bethesda is adversely affecting ALL RPGs other than by making a game that you don't like.
Second part first. I think you misunderstand me. First and foremost as a gamer, my core is right in the heart of RPGs. From the early days of playing Final fantasy 1 when it was new, and getting free copy of dragon WARRIOR for Nintendo power subscription, to today when I can say I have effectively beaten every non MMO Final fantasy, have delved into over 100 MMORPG worlds, Played through not only the best RPGs over the last 25 years, but even some of the worst. "Crystalis, Mindbrain, SagaFrontier, Unlimited Saga, Gothic 3, Last remnant, Two Worlds, etc. ad nausea. The reason I bring this up is that you most certainly misunderstand me.
I WANT to like TES. As someone who lives for RPG content, it is exactly the sort of thing I want to see successful and good and more of. I want big open worlds. I want that feel of a single player MMO, I WANT the Bethesda RPGs to be good. THIS is the reason I speak ill of Bethesda. They arent. Going back to Morrowind, That in and of itself was a uninteresting mess of a game that practically begged you to stop playing it. I know that once you got beyond a certain point in it, that falls away, but that takes a VERY hefty investment of time and hoping against hope it will become entertaining. This console generation the Bethesda RPGs has been an overwhelming mass of copy pasta games, resulting in buggy, insufficiently tested products that if any other developer other than valve would willingly push out to the public in that state, there would be torches and pitchforks involved. Then there is the business model of DLC for profit that Bethesda has taken to a new level. To have the audacity to charge gamers in essence 10$ for a DLC for what amounts to an hours worth of content is incredibly insulting. Then to purposely repackage it as a "GOTY" type game to go back and essentially charge full price for the whole product, Is even more so.
And that is why I point to what Bethesda has done that effects ALL RPG development. Look at the state of the industry. It does not take much observation of the industry to understand how the industry works right now. Gamers constantly complain about developers "not taking any risks" and "playing it safe". And how do they do that? By doing not what works, or what is good, but what sells. So if you have a game like Skyrim that was wrongly heralded as a revelation to the gaming world, and managed to push RPGs back to the top to rub shoulders with the Lauded FPS franchises in terms of popularity, that invariably trickles down and what that will result in is other developers further emulating bethesda. And when For the current console generation you have a company that has consistently pushed out bland, uninteresting games with regurgitated narrative tropes, Abused assets and packaged into buggy and game breaking clusterfucks those are NOT the traits RPGs should be emulating. However, because it was so unjustifiably successful, that is exactly what you see. Exactly in the same way that MMOs after WoW started to emulate all parts of the game especially the bad parts (Hotkey combat, Copy Pasta "set pieces" and lifted story arcs from other media) so too has Bethesdas very bad habits already started to influence the development of RPGs as a whole.
So yeah, its not about what I like or not. I WANT to like Bethesda RPGs because I can always use another good RPG. However, that isnt what Bethesda makes. And because its clear to devs/publishers that Bethesda is popular, successful, and safe, they are now the go to role model for almost every Large scale RPG and you can already see the influences very clearly.
I totally disagree about the DLC. They are one of the few companies that provide substantive additions with their DLC. They made their mistakes with Oblivion of course but they don't seem to be doing that any more.
I get that you don't like it. You could have spared me all this. My point is you haven't told me anything I don't already know, or at least have considered even if I don't agree with it. You keep talking as if liking a Bethesda game can only happen because I don't possess the sophistication to appreciate the genius of your valid criticisms. I don't think that's fair or true. And making The Elder Scrolls the scapegoat for everything you don't like has everything to do with you not liking it. The place The Elder Scrolls occupies within the RPG genre isn't comparable to the one WoW occupies in the MMO genre.
Now that I have to disagree with. I can see the russian reference. However, I think of them more like Chery International Automotive
http://cheryinternational.com/
Poorly and cheaply copying other reused ideas resulting in a dangerous product that shows no hint of imagination or even innovation, that has made more money than it ever should have. Though that is an opinion. However it at least seems more rooted in logic than suggesting a company that knowingly pushes out incomplete, buggy products would make awesome cars.
They do a great job, display a ton of innovation and imagination (well, not Oblivion) they take their time and devote the proper resources to their projects. They change goddamn everything between installments, unlike everybody else. It invariably leads to fan-rage. I simply don't know what you're talking about. Their projects are definitely buggy and incomplete, almost by definition. It hasn't escaped the notice of my tiny micro-brain. I really don't want to pursue car analogies any further lol.
Now, you are more than welcome to respond. I would not have spent this much effort writing all this out had it not been for being quoted and it being an extension of the former disagreement. I do not see a lot of point to continue on when these are opinions and those opinions wont be swayed no matter what is presented. When you quote me, and you will, Ill read what you have to say in response, but as for you and I, we fully understand the others position so its really a waste of time and effort to continue it. Nothing is gained by continually butting heads over this difference of opinion, and a whole lot of value is lost.. Namely time, of which I personally really dont have a lot to spare. (part of why my backlog is shamefully huge now, even WITH losing my steam account thanks to their unreasonable demands and customer abuse.
It's true that internet arguments almost never end in agreement, but two honest and amiable persons can hope to reach an understanding. I do not view this as a waste of time. I also don't view you as an enemy, but someone I want to persuade that I'm not as dumb as you say.
SajuukKhar said:
Most people will never understand how the statue of Talos in Whiterun, and how the shrine of Akatosh of connected, because they never take the time to look at them, to see how similar they are, to see the symbolism they provide.
Most people are use to Bioware's story telling in Dragon Age, or Mass Effect, where they had you everything on a silver platter in dialog, cutscenes, and the codex, most people never take the time to stop and actually look at the world, which is why Skyrim feels empty to them.
If people "don't get it" that's their loss. But I'm worried there is this enormous pressure on Bethesda to become like Bioware, and if that happened the rage would burn me alive. Come on, guys, my life is at stake!
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