AMD Says Long-in-the-Tooth DirectX is Holding Back PC Gaming

jamesworkshop

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Jormala said:
jamesworkshop said:
Forget Direct X, we are still using the same Bios from the 70's

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2010/10/new-bios-replacement-could-offer-superior-start-up-times/

Unified Extensible Firmware Interface
That's like complaining about how we still have wheels on cars.
read the link

http://www.bootbeta.com/blog/difference-between-efi-and-bios.html

http://www.bootbeta.com/blog/some-drawbacks-of-traditional-bios.html

http://www.bootbeta.com/blog/introduction-to-pcs-efi.html

some more

Bios is massively out of date
 

AceAngel

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Calcium said:
The 10 times extra power is mostly visible as statistics and numbers on a spreadsheet I'm guessing. If only consoles had such power! We could have developers spending all their money on graphics instead of gameplay again!
The reason we spend so much time in making your bloody games 'look good' isn't because it's harder or the only selling point, infact, it's easier to make a game look good then bad, but it's the optimization part that kills us. Yes, 'good graphics' instead of 'amazing graphics' is the reason you are getting mediocre games.

If we had more powerful hardware, then we could create extremely great looking shaders, models and textures, all super-scaled, and call it a day, without having to go through a hundred loops and experimenting what we need or don't need just so your average person is able to run.

Look at it this way, I could create Isaac Clarke from DS in under a 1 week (average time span for a main character concept), but I'm spending about 2 weeks extra totaling to almost a month in just making the guy (A SINGLE CHARACTER) optimized and 'look like what it should be', instead of say spending time in other departments. Should we use a detail diffuse for the model and plug in the Red Channel for the Normal Map or should we instead go for a 4K universal map for several parts of the different armor to save up space as one draw-call? What about SSS? Make the entire material in a single channel via thee Diffuse channel by using Bump-Offsets for the detail of the skin, or should we create a separate layer and directly use the channel for a Dot-Function to enable a Fresnal like look?

Can the PS3 do this? Call Johnson so we can check. 360? Are we using a standard engine that has a higher call rate for the textures in smaller formats or bigger? What the draw-call ratio vs. attached meshe's vs. non-attached meshe's rigged by a bone system?

If people actually updated hardware more and consoles stopped being such drags, then we could do more. Don't blame us for having to hire about 4 different artists for one model, since the PS3 and 360 each have their own way of rendering the shaders or processing the shadow maps. Don't blame us for having to work around the clock in creating boring stuff...blame the people who don't like updating hardware and who make us lose days of our lives just hoping everything works.

The less we have to optimize the better chances are that games can be kicked out the door and I can get back to making a game about a Shark-Bird-Octopus-Bear taking over the world, but since I don't know if I can make even a vertex displacement for simulate polygonal hair, I don't want to risk wasting months of my life on a game that no one might buy other then 'nerd niche value'.

PS: Iphone is the same issue, you can't believe however how much more complicate the Iphone actually is. We have to compensate for Orange and Blue color believe it or not because of the the screen.
 

ratix2

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RebellionXXI said:
Well that answers my question.

I was wondering why computers didn't have graphics that were (in general) any better than the PS3 when a high-end gaming PC costs twice as much.

I guess it's an optimization issue. You introduce an API layer between your hardware and software to ensure compatibility, and it becomes a huge bottleneck.

This, I think, lends credence to Bob Chipman's opinion as to why PC gaming is going out the door. It's probably better from a performance perspective to develop programs and games for a specific platform that always uses the same hardware. I mean, if you just stuck a mouse and keyboard into your X360 and allowed people to start installing 3rd party programs on it, it'd be no different than a PC.

But, as we've seen with Sony and Apple, having a dedicated platform gives the hardware manufacturer the ability to restrict what kinds of programs can run on their systems and which can't. Compatibility isn't an issue when they can enforce these things by simple fiat. So if we do go towards dedicated platforms, we might get better performance, but (as consumers) we'll lose a lot of control over our hardware and how we use it.
No. The problem with this article is that it makes things out to be much more.dire than they already are. There is not a HUGE decrease in performance as he.says, it is significant when compared to low level programming (as there are similar issues in all other fields when comparing low and high level programming languages), but no where near a major difference.

Furthermore, the man being interviewed does not take into account all factors. We'll use the gtx 280 and 480 for this example. The 280 has 240 stream processors while the 480 has 480 stream processors. Now at first glance you would think that this would equal a 2x increase in performance, but it doesent. Stream processors AREN'T the only parts of a gpu. ROP's and texture mapping units are two others and they also play a big part on performance. The gtx 280 has 80 TMU's and 32 rop's, while the 480 has 20 fewer TMUS (60) and 16 more rop's (48). For a 2x performance increase the gpu would have to contain 160 TMUS and 64 rop's, not 25% fewer TMUS and 50% more rop's. Furthermore, the gtx 280 has a 33% larger memory bus than the 480, and while a 512 bit wide memory bus was too much for the card its been theorized that the 384 bit bus on the 480 at times could bottleneck the card. In real world tests the 480 typically performs between 70 and 85% faster than the 280, but not 100%.

Also, a previous poster made a good point, few games actually support dx 10 or 11 (its actually direct 3d, direct x actually is a set of api's that covers more than graphics). Most games only use dx9 because they are direct console ports. Direct x 10 and 11 support many features that allow better visual fidelity while giving better similar or in some cases better performance that if the same features were enabled under dx 9. Also in that regard developers have to ask is it worth it to use time and resources to create higher polygon models and higher resolution textures for a port of a console game?

Next, if you want a good example look a at a little mentioned game, metro 2033. The 360 version in screenshot comparisons is about equal to medium on the pc version, and at very high settings the pc version offers significantly higher visual fidelity than the 360 version.

Another point, very few console games run at 1080p, most filing at only 720p. For a comparison a resolution of 1280x1024 is a higher resolution of 1080x720. The average resolution pc games are run at these days is 1600x1200, in some cases 1920x1200 or even 2560x1600, all significantly higher than 720p. And seeing as most are capped at 30 fps, whereas pc games usually don't like to run at anything lower than 60.

All of these factors should lead to one conclusion, Richard Huddy brings up many good points in his interview, but because he is talking about a specific point fails to show the whole picture and his point comes off as being much worse than it actually is.
 

Jormala

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jamesworkshop said:
read the link
http://www.bootbeta.com/blog/difference-between-efi-and-bios.html
http://www.bootbeta.com/blog/some-drawbacks-of-traditional-bios.html
http://www.bootbeta.com/blog/introduction-to-pcs-efi.html
some more

Bios is massively out of date
The only "true upgrades" that we get in EFI are just the boot up speed and GPT.
The low level OS is just a gimmick for people who can't use a keyboard.
But yeah, EFI is good, but the upgrade is not that significant.
 

Art Axiv

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Dec 25, 2008
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Andy Chalk said:
I still have my Rage 3D version of Mechwarrior 2.

I don't know that doesn't contribute much to the conversation, but it's all I got.
Ah, the days of Rage 3D and 3Dfx...
 

frago roc

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Consoles were designed with price and accessibility in mind, not everyone can afford a gaming PC and I'm glad that there is choice in the industry. As a mainly PC gamer I can complain how console gaming is holding back the graphical frontiers for everyone, but when I think long and hard about how console development is saving companies tones of money as they don't have to spend all that money to push their games to the max by PC standards.

Back in the PS2 and Xbox era computer games ALWAYS looked better - the Xbox rendition of HL2 is a good example. This day and age the graphics are marginally better (although dx11 DA2 is pretty). Now the choice isn't so much macho PC hardware vs console hardware, but rather what is made available easier on the PC vs console. Modding and user content will always reign supreme for PC, but consoles have an easier (generally) way to party up and play games together. Both have their pros and cons and, like I said, choice is healthy.
 

fix-the-spade

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Andy Chalk said:
Those good reasons are what led to the widespread adoption of DirectX in the first place. PC gamers of a certain age will no doubt have fond memories of messing around with VESA drivers or buying "special editions" of games that would only run on specific video hardware
Oh Hell yeah.

I still have my ATI 3-D Rage editions of Mechwarrior 2, Wipeout and Assult Rigs somewhere, amongst other things. Wonder if they'll work on Windows 7...
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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Awesome. Even respectable, big-name companies are adding fuel to the whole PC vs Console debate.

I knew this headache had to come from somewhere...
 

praetor_alpha

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Contrarily, I have considered DirectX the single driving force behind the evolution of other APIs, graphics features, and capabilities. No one else seems to be doing this as much as Microsoft is. Once upon the 80s and 90s, SGI drove graphics, but started having trouble over the last 10 years, and was finally bought two years ago.

I agree with the argument about ports keeping PC gaming back. Devs need to start using current gen APIs (DX 10, 11) with native 64 bit code, Windows XP be damned.
smv1172 said:
Jormala said:
jamesworkshop said:
Forget Direct X, we are still using the same Bios from the 70's

http://www.ubergizmo.com/2010/10/new-bios-replacement-could-offer-superior-start-up-times/

Unified Extensible Firmware Interface
That's like complaining about how we still have wheels on cars.
UEFI is coming, I'll give you that it should've been here, but more and more mobo manufacturers are making the switch. I'm doubting it is going to be all that significant, how long do most computers take to post? If you really want to make the switch go grab yourself one of the efi-x usb dongles. Though once BIOS is completely dead I'm wondering how Apple is going to analyze to see if you are using a mac for macOS, right now using a UEFI mobo or an efix dongle pretty much does the trick.
UEFI is here: Intel is laying down the law, and making all Sandy Bridge motherboards have UEFI.
 

Baneat

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Matt_LRR said:
I like the "we have 10x the power, but not 10x better graphcs" argument.

Diminshing returns, much?

-m
Objectively speaking :D

Such as - We Have 10x the capacity to render that tree but the tree's only 2x as detailed because of DX11's limits.

Love your show, btw, just can't let that slip!
 

Andy of Comix Inc

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...I say, leave the graphics to the GPU manufacturers, and let game developers work on what they should be working on - art design. It's sure nice to have graphic grunt, being able to render whatever you like, but if there ain't anything worthwhile being rendered, you'll still be able to suck out every piece of atmosphere like a Shamwow.

Baneat said:
Matt_LRR said:
I like the "we have 10x the power, but not 10x better graphcs" argument.

Diminshing returns, much?

-m
Objectively speaking :D

Such as - We Have 10x the capacity to render that tree but the tree's only 2x as detailed because of DX11's limits.
Because game developers would just love to be able to render that tree 10x better than on consoles. Yeah. Trees.
 

Waaghpowa

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Apr 13, 2010
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Delusibeta said:
Xzi said:
Even looking as good as it does on DX9 consoles, Crytek had to severely limit the level design in Crysis 2 in order to achieve that. As opposed to the first Crysis which is very wide-open and still absolutely gorgeous because it was designed with DX10 and PCs in mind.
Yeah, I think the prime comparison would be between Crysis 1 (which was a PC only game with a design document that said "lol let's break as many computers as we can with our MASS GRAPHIX") and Crysis 2 (which is a multiformat game with a design document that read "How the hell can we get our engine running on consoles?").
On the bright side, Pc version of Crysis 2 should run rather well for a larger audience than Crysis 1. Or at least that's the hope based on the MP demo. I personally will be rather please if I can get it to run at least 70 fps without risking my GPU core temp like I did with the first one.
 

Waaghpowa

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Andy Chalk said:
I still have my Rage 3D version of Mechwarrior 2.

I don't know that doesn't contribute much to the conversation, but it's all I got.
I have original copies of Duke Nukem, Jazz Jackrabbit and Commander Keen on 3.5 Floppy!

Not contributing much either... :p
 

lacktheknack

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Soviet Heavy said:
I just want a piece of software that lets me play anything from Wolfenstein 3D to Crysis. An all purpose piece of tech.
You will need:
-The hardware to play your highest-requirement game, plus 4 GB RAM.
-A decent virtual machine host (VMWare is good).
-Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows 7 (use 64-bit), Mac OSX, Linux (your choice of which).
-DOSBox.
-Time.
-Effort.

Instant all-compatibility.
 

lacktheknack

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s0m3th1ng said:
Oh, get off of OGL's dick AMD....
Personally, I'd prefer they don't get anybody off. That would be creepy, disgusting and in total compliance of Rule 34.
 

Baneat

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Andy of Comix Inc said:
...I say, leave the graphics to the GPU manufacturers, and let game developers work on what they should be working on - art design. It's sure nice to have graphic grunt, being able to render whatever you like, but if there ain't anything worthwhile being rendered, you'll still be able to suck out every piece of atmosphere like a Shamwow.

Baneat said:
Matt_LRR said:
I like the "we have 10x the power, but not 10x better graphcs" argument.

Diminshing returns, much?

-m
Objectively speaking :D

Such as - We Have 10x the capacity to render that tree but the tree's only 2x as detailed because of DX11's limits.
Because game developers would just love to be able to render that tree 10x better than on consoles. Yeah. Trees.
The whole world then ^^, this is mainly the Crytek guys' dream, all those performance games (Which are mainly first person mode for some odd reason), Battlefield, Crysis, Killzone you get the idea.
 

Smooth Operator

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Well you could always use OpenGL :p

Graphics at this point really depend more on the developer, no amount of anti-aliasing/tessellation/shading will get you around a badly designed scenery/models and bad animations, and because they all try to squeeze their games into consoles you really can't expect them to go beyond those 5 poly models.

Another thing is near realism, graphics have come so far that you can barely distinguish game/movie(when done well), so 10x the horsepower can't push you beyond realism just those few percent closer.
 

Anton P. Nym

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I love how AMD just waves away what (in my opinion) is the big limiter now... the man-hours required to create content that would reflect a 10x increase in resolution. It's not DX9 or 10 holding things back, it's the need for $50 million+ budgets and studios with 200+ staff just to create titles at today's state of the art.

Unless AMD has an API for procedurally-generated art assets, they're wasting their breath.

-- Steve
 

unacomn

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And this is why I have to upgrade my PC(kiddin', don't have the money) to play new games, instead of just having games better use my existing hardware. I've played games that blatantly refuse to use my video memory, and I've got gobs of it, gooooobs!