America vs. China?

[Misterian]

okay, I started to notice this concept after playing Fallout 3, a game where China battles with the U.S in an alternate timeline. I wondered why they didn't pick the Sovient Union instead, considering it was a 1950's-esique nuiverse, it would make good sense to me.

But I didn't get suspicous until I learned about the upcoming Red Dawn remake film, where, like with the Fallout francise, the Soviets are replaced with the People's Republic of China.

these might be my only examples, but still..

what's up with the idea of America potrayed going against The People's Republic? the U.S has good relations with them, we got no reason to want to go to wat against them. (except perhaps for that whole Taiwan business if you know what I mean, but even that's rather unlikely from where I'm standing.) North Korea, I might understand, I hear they got a large nuclear arsenal and are not afraid to use it.

I dread the idea of the U.S actually going to war with the People's Republic, both nations have among the world's strongest military armies, and the Chinese would probably do better at invading the west coast than Japan did at WWII. And being from Washington State myself, that's a scary thought.

Can anyone help me make sense of why it seems like people like portraying U.S against the Chinese? or at least how that concept came to be?

 

[reg42]

You could argue that it's a "communism vs. capitalism" thing, but as to why they chose China specifically, I have no idea.

 

[zehydra]

We fought the Chinese a little in the Korean War and they posed a serious threat to the United States at one point. I think people were sick of the soviets, so they decided to go with the next biggest communist power.

 

[BonsaiK]

It's nothing to do with communism as communism in the Chinese sense of the world is extremely different from the Russian version.

The only reason for is it that China is a big superpower with a lot of land mass and a large population, and so is America. So it's kind of like the obvious "clash of the titans" or something.

 

[Misterian]

It's nothing to do with communism as communism in the Chinese sense of the world is extremely different from the Russian version.

The only reason for is it that China is a big superpower with a lot of land mass and a large population, and so is America. So it's kind of like the obvious "clash of the titans" or something.

that's partially why I'm afraid of the idea, that, and if Washington state gets annexed by the People's Republic, I think I might go crazy.

you might too if some other nation started invading your homestead.

 

[ethaninja]

All I know is that if it was America vs Australia, us Aussies would surely loose big time Lucky for us.

 

[BonsaiK]

It's nothing to do with communism as communism in the Chinese sense of the world is extremely different from the Russian version.

The only reason for is it that China is a big superpower with a lot of land mass and a large population, and so is America. So it's kind of like the obvious "clash of the titans" or something.

that's partially why I'm afraid of the idea, that, and if Washington state gets annexed by the People's Republic, I think I might go crazy.

you might too if some other nation started invading your homestead.

In reality, America and China have absolutely nothing to fear from each other. They have a symbiotic trade relationship that neither country will ever want to ruin. The current American standard of living simply couldn't exist without China, and the current Chinese economic situation can't exist without America. They might have the odd disagreement occasionally but they'll be buddies for the remainder of our lifetimes for this reason alone.

 

[nomadic_chad]

A quote from the original Red Dawn movie says it all:

Darryl Bates: What started it?
Col. Andy Tanner: I don't know. Two toughest kids on the block, I guess. Sooner or later, they're gonna fight.

It was talking about US vs. Russkies, but it's still applicable.

 

[Misterian]

It's nothing to do with communism as communism in the Chinese sense of the world is extremely different from the Russian version.

The only reason for is it that China is a big superpower with a lot of land mass and a large population, and so is America. So it's kind of like the obvious "clash of the titans" or something.

that's partially why I'm afraid of the idea, that, and if Washington state gets annexed by the People's Republic, I think I might go crazy.

you might too if some other nation started invading your homestead.

In reality, America and China have absolutely nothing to fear from each other. They have a symbiotic trade relationship that neither country will ever want to ruin. The current American standard of living simply couldn't exist without China, and the current Chinese economic situation can't exist without America. They might have the odd disagreement occasionally but they'll be buddies for the remainder of our lifetimes for this reason alone.

thay's true, so I guess I got nothing to worry about in terms of getting invaded or facing any war-related situations.

at least not until Al-Queda terrorists try to take out the West Coast.

 

[nomadic_chad]

The origional red dawn was 'bollocks' as landing troops like that on u.s. soil would have been a catastrophic failiure for the russians and resulted in massive loss of russian lives the same as if America invaded russia, the armies are too big as is the land mass that would need to be occupied...

It was bollocks, but for a different reason than the one you gave. The lore of the original Red Dawn movie hinted at multiple air drops all over the US, hinted at sleeper units, and...my memory isn't quite so clear on it, tactical nuclear weapon usage.

Having served for a short time in our Army, I can attest that spooling up to engage targets on our own soil would take some time...think World in Conflict. The chaos of air dropped troops, sudden appearance of armed troops (in civvie clothing), and massive forces hitting a shore at the same time would be catastrophic for us.

The reason it's bollocks is that we'd have warning. How much warning, it's hard to say. Radar, intel, civvie aircraft and watercraft would all see it coming and report the inbounds.

 

[maninahat]

It's nothing to do with communism as communism in the Chinese sense of the world is extremely different from the Russian version.

The only reason for is it that China is a big superpower with a lot of land mass and a large population, and so is America. So it's kind of like the obvious "clash of the titans" or something.

that's partially why I'm afraid of the idea, that, and if Washington state gets annexed by the People's Republic, I think I might go crazy.

you might too if some other nation started invading your homestead.

And it also plays off the paranoia of some American people who can't seem to abide their being a competing superpower out there.

 

[maninahat]

All I know is that if it was America vs Australia, us Aussies would surely loose big time Lucky for us.

Apparently the Aussies have a pretty good defence plan, and the country promises to be a nightmare for an invasion. Basically, it revolves around letting foreigners march over as much of the Western/Northern parts as they like, seeing as how the climate and distance makes such an invasion a pain in the ass. Then Australia uses it's highly trained army to take out whatever forces which manage to cross all that distance and still be able to put up a fight.

There is no advantage for large countries like the US or China invading one another. The logistics and cost would be astronomical to the point that the countries would run into financial ruin before making any real headway.

 

[maninahat]

The origional red dawn was 'bollocks' as landing troops like that on u.s. soil would have been a catastrophic failiure for the russians and resulted in massive loss of russian lives the same as if America invaded russia, the armies are too big as is the land mass that would need to be occupied...

It was bollocks, but for a different reason than the one you gave. The lore of the original Red Dawn movie hinted at multiple air drops all over the US, hinted at sleeper units, and...my memory isn't quite so clear on it, tactical nuclear weapon usage.

Having served for a short time in our Army, I can attest that spooling up to engage targets on our own soil would take some time...think World in Conflict. The chaos of air dropped troops, sudden appearance of armed troops (in civvie clothing), and massive forces hitting a shore at the same time would be catastrophic for us.

The reason it's bollocks is that we'd have warning. How much warning, it's hard to say. Radar, intel, civvie aircraft and watercraft would all see it coming and report the inbounds.

It's also bollocks because they seem happy to waste valuable materials on attacking such vital military targets as highschools (apparently RPG attacks are necessary to supress unarmed pupils).

 

[Therumancer]

You guys are kidding right?

Okay this is a simplistic version.

China is an extremely racist nation with ambitions of Empire that have existed for centuries. They pretty much believe, and have believed before the advent of communism that the world is basically theirs. What's more they have a sort of "master race" doctrine similar to Hitler's above both westerners and other asians.

China is also a closed culture that intentionally seals itself off from outside ideas. The "Bamboo Curtain" having been extended to things like a national firewall. It's also internaally very ruthless in broadcasting a specific agenda and point of view.

On top of this China has a massive population problem combined with a culture that favors the idea of very large family units. Something at odds with goverment population control plans and the like. The bottom line is that China's attitude is one where they believe that it's natural and intended for them to conquer other lands and dominate other people for living space if nothing else.

So far there has not been a massive issue with China, because their abillity to project their power has been limited, combined of course with the threat of WMD and the like. However advents in technology have seen China building up it's potential for military projection by building a strong navy, escort submarines, and anti-satellite technology including some kind of laser system that can blind US spy satellites. Not to mention their own space program which is not bound by the same agreements we made with the USSR.

On top of this there is the issue of the Chinese "robber economy" which is largely based off of knocking off technology from other nations and then selling it cheaper in the global market. There are mixed opinions about this, but basically it costs countries trillions of dollars each year. Patent violations and the like are an issue brought up before the so-called "world court" but no ruling has yet to be made largely because any official ruling would arguably start World War III.

Also if you look at China's economy even on articles here involving "World Of Warcraft" and such, there are laws prohibiting non-Chinese businesses from making so much money on Chinese soil, or taking so much money out of the economy. As well as limitations on what kinds of businesses can be run, which has lead to issues with companies like Blizzard having to work with third parties, a falling out with Chinese Associates having taken WoW offline in China not too long ago.

The bottom line being that for all comments about money borrowed, and economic links, China does not engage in fair trade policies on any level which is an issue. China's relationship with the US being not so muc as one of a trade partner and wierd mutal creditor, but as a loan shark working to prevent the repayment of a loan, who is also robbing their client at gunpoint.

All of these things lead to international tensions which have been brewing. Before 9/11 I sort of predicted we would have come to blows with China before anyone else.

The basic situation is one where China is pretty much a super power in everything except for their military, and they are developing that. Due to overcrowding alone, never mind nationalist/racist philsophy China has every practical reason to seek invasion. What's more given a general lack of enemies, there would be no other reason for their military build up except to attempt to attack us or europe since there isn't any force in their region that could threaten them that hasn't been present for a long time (and they had maintained independance).

The thing with China though is that they have a lot of shallow, short term friendships with a lot of other nations which are blinded by the abillity to obtain cheap Chinese knock offs. Basically they can get stuff similar to what the US develops/trades (for example) for a fraction of the price. This can range from needed things like drugs, to luxury items. This seems like a "positive" thing until you consider that it's unfair to those who develop those technologies (often at great expense) and hold the patents. Not to mention the goverments that have an interest in them.

Right now ICBMs and the like are an archaic technology that has maintained world peace for decades. Like any technology it's inevitable that it is going to become obselete.

The US right now also suffers from a disadvantage of it's own morality in respects to not being willing to engage in a pre-emptive military campaign, instead acting almost totally reatively (even The War On Terror was a reactive action).


The bottom line is that it has less to do with Communism Vs. Capitolism that many people might think. There are a LOT of issues, including those above which I have simplified greatly for the sake of this (long) post. Such scenarios are based on things coming to a head between our respective nations. Really things haven't gotten that bad because of the threat of WMD and the sheer range between the US and China (opposite sides of the world).

In Fallout it's a retro-future setting, the world wasn't actually the 1950s but after the Millenium despite what the tech turned out like. Presumably a lot of similar events took place including the fall of the USSR, and the replacement of that threat with the current Chinese situation.

Oh and one final point: China actually posseses the arrogance that the US has been accused of. People have a short memory but we had that whole "David Faye" incident back during the Clinton administration. There is no doubt Dave deserved what happened to him, however when the leader of a nation personally requests an exception for a minor crime it's a massive slight not to comply. We have done things like this constantly for other nations (Diplomatic Immunity and the like). For China NOT to do it meant a lot. It's not like the guy was accused of treason or something. On top of this we had an incident before 9/11 that was the big news of the time where a US Spy Plane over international waters was grounded/pirated by the Chinese military. The Chinese eventually released the pilots, but dug through the plane to steal technology as we watched them with satellites (allegedly the pilots had jettisoned anything they could use). Basically China has no respect for the US whatsoever.

This is dangerous because it's not just hype and politics, and it's been going on for a while. In general the US tends to be fairly mellow and turn the other cheek. Even our underhanded stuff is intented to avoid more extreme situations. What it means is that when there is no central respect, it means that any pretensions of diplomacy are going to fail. Right now it seems China maintains diplomatic ties largely to buy time while it upgrades it's technology and builds that military. For the most part every chance it gets to snub or one up the US it's been taking.

Yes the US and China *WERE* allies, but things changed. Right now I guess you could say we're rivals, simply because we won't push the button to turn it into full blown enimity,
and they won't push the button until they feel they are ready.

This is simply MY opinion and observations, but the fact that I am not alone (even if it's not popualr with elements of the left wing) is exactly why you see so many people pointing towards this as the next big war. It gets into mainstream productions as much as it does, because despite what some might want to think, it's not just paranoia. Things really are that bad, and are slowly getting worse.

 

[Low Key]

It's nothing to do with communism as communism in the Chinese sense of the world is extremely different from the Russian version.

The only reason for is it that China is a big superpower with a lot of land mass and a large population, and so is America. So it's kind of like the obvious "clash of the titans" or something.

that's partially why I'm afraid of the idea, that, and if Washington state gets annexed by the People's Republic, I think I might go crazy.

you might too if some other nation started invading your homestead.

In reality, America and China have absolutely nothing to fear from each other. They have a symbiotic trade relationship that neither country will ever want to ruin. The current American standard of living simply couldn't exist without China, and the current Chinese economic situation can't exist without America. They might have the odd disagreement occasionally but they'll be buddies for the remainder of our lifetimes for this reason alone.

thay's true, so I guess I got nothing to worry about in terms of getting invaded or facing any war-related situations.

at least not until Al-Queda terrorists try to take out the West Coast.

Spoiler: Or until the volcano under Yellowstone erupts

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera]

 

[ottenni]

Somehow i cant see this as a likely possibility. What would either have to gain from a war?

Although i do remember studying something about an American plan for such an outcome that involved taking Beijing and ignore the rest of China or something, so i guess its wise to prepare for everything.

 

[Acaroid]

I dread the idea of the U.S actually going to war with the People's Republic, both nations have among the world's strongest military armies, and the Chinese would probably do better at invading the west coast than Japan did at WWII.

I would probably say that is why.

Yeah they are behind in the way of technology but do have more numbers, but atm, they are really the only ones I think that have the potential to take over the USA in the future. That is just my thinking.

 

[Hugh Mann]

okay, I started to notice this concept after playing Fallout 3, a game where China battles with the U.S in an alternate timeline. I wondered why they didn't pick the Sovient Union instead, considering it was a 1950's-esique nuiverse, it would make good sense to me.

But I didn't get suspicous until I learned about the upcoming Red Dawn remake film, where, like with the Fallout francise, the Soviets are replaced with the People's Republic of China.

these might be my only examples, but still..

what's up with the idea of America potrayed going against The People's Republic? the U.S has good relations with them, we got no reason to want to go to wat against them. (except perhaps for that whole Taiwan business if you know what I mean, but even that's rather unlikely from where I'm standing.) North Korea, I might understand, I hear they got a large nuclear arsenal and are not afraid to use it.

I dread the idea of the U.S actually going to war with the People's Republic, both nations have among the world's strongest military armies, and the Chinese would probably do better at invading the west coast than Japan did at WWII. And being from Washington State myself, that's a scary thought.

Can anyone help me make sense of why it seems like people like portraying U.S against the Chinese? or at least how that concept came to be?

You do need to worry, with Patrick Swayze around to roundhouse kick the reds, there's nothing to stop them!

That being said China may have millions of troops and a large landmass, their geographical position is rather precarious as most of their population either lives on the coast, or is dependent on one of their main rivers, this combined with desertification and a some well placed nukes and the amount of livable land goes down really quick like.

Will we ever go to war with them? It's possible, though we have very strong economic ties, China has consistently been pretty assholish to the rest of the world, though for the moment the USA has been rather unconcerned with standing up to them even on a diplomatic stance, Tibet, The attempts to hack the Gmail accounts of dissidents, replacing the audience at obama's speech with a bunch of hyper indoctrinated students, Tiananmen Square and the continued denial of such and they haven't gotten so much as a BAD CHINA, from the world.
Also when they did intervene in Korea, they did pretty well at first and gained a significant ground but after awhile the UN forces kinda raped them so bad on the Imjin they still won't admit how many they lost (thought to be around 70,000 compared to 16,000 UN casualties)so if the tech gap has remained the same over the years (which we really don't know) you could expect early chinese success followed by stalemate and negotiation.

Also any guesses on which side Russia would be on?

 

[Maibus]

okay, I started to notice this concept after playing Fallout 3, a game where China battles with the U.S in an alternate timeline. I wondered why they didn't pick the Sovient Union instead, considering it was a 1950's-esique nuiverse, it would make good sense to me.

But I didn't get suspicous until I learned about the upcoming Red Dawn remake film, where, like with the Fallout francise, the Soviets are replaced with the People's Republic of China.

these might be my only examples, but still..

what's up with the idea of America potrayed going against The People's Republic? the U.S has good relations with them, we got no reason to want to go to wat against them. (except perhaps for that whole Taiwan business if you know what I mean, but even that's rather unlikely from where I'm standing.) North Korea, I might understand, I hear they got a large nuclear arsenal and are not afraid to use it.

I dread the idea of the U.S actually going to war with the People's Republic, both nations have among the world's strongest military armies, and the Chinese would probably do better at invading the west coast than Japan did at WWII. And being from Washington State myself, that's a scary thought.

Can anyone help me make sense of why it seems like people like portraying U.S against the Chinese? or at least how that concept came to be?

You do need to worry, with Patrick Swayze around to roundhouse kick the reds, there's nothing to stop them!

That being said China may have millions of troops and a large landmass, their geographical position is rather precarious as most of their population either lives on the coast, or is dependent on one of their main rivers, this combined with desertification and a some well placed nukes and the amount of livable land goes down really quick like.

Will we ever go to war with them? It's possible, though we have very strong economic ties, China has consistently been pretty assholish to the rest of the world, though for the moment the USA has been rather unconcerned with standing up to them even on a diplomatic stance, Tibet, The attempts to hack the Gmail accounts of dissidents, replacing the audience at obama's speech with a bunch of hyper indoctrinated students, Tiananmen Square and the continued denial of such and they haven't gotten so much as a BAD CHINA, from the world.
Also when they did intervene in Korea, they did pretty well at first and gained a significant ground but after awhile the UN forces kinda raped them so bad on the Imjin they still won't admit how many they lost (thought to be around 70,000 compared to 16,000 UN casualties)so if the tech gap has remained the same over the years (which we really don't know) you could expect early chinese success followed by stalemate and negotiation.

Also any guesses on which side Russia would be on?

I hate to let you know about this, but Patrick Swayze's been dead for a few months now... I think since August or September. Anyway, a war with China would be less "clash of the titans" and more like "who has the most friends". There was something I heard one time, three Russian tanks are equal to one American tank, but the problem is Russia still has the three tanks, just take that and apply it to China.

 

[asinann]

The U.S. has cordial relations with China that become strained every other week. China has a ton of troops, but they are almost universally forced into it and the average amount of combat experience for them is next to nil (killing unarmed monks isn't combat.) They also lack enough transportation to get much of anywhere over water in any large numbers or with any major pieces of military hardware.

The reason that they are being used to replace Soviet Russia is because most people in the U.S. no longer consider the Russians to be a significant military power.

There was something I heard one time, three Russian tanks are equal to one American tank, but the problem is Russia still has the three tanks, just take that and apply it to China.

The last time U.S. tanks went up against any Russian tanks (they were a little older I think, and operated by Iraqis) was the first gulf war. The kill ratio, including friendly fire kills, was 10:1, 10 Russian tanks for each U.S. tank taken down.