An article from a former sjw woman and a gamer.

[BloatedGuppy]

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Why would there be any risk in that? If you wanted games with less diversity or male protagonists, you could just make them! Everyone would be happily playing the games of their own creation, and we'd have no need for developers or publishers any more!

And why stop there?

Unhappy with that film? Don't criticize it, make the film you want to see!
Unhappy with your car? Don't criticize it, make the car you want to drive!
Unhappy with your country's military industrial complex? Don't criticize it, become the general of an upstart militia and form your own military industrial complex!

 

[Silvanus]

for starters, none of this

Spoiler: Articles Image.

or anita and her lying, and devs getting blacklisted, or being accused of false things

If the "agendas" to which you referred were just stuff against 'gamer' as an identity, that's absolutely fine.

I thought you may have also been referring to issues of representation, feminism, etc, and wanting them "out of gaming".

I apologise if that wasn't the case.

a game is not worse just bacause is racist or sexist, you can express your opinion about those topics all you want, but its not valid criticism at the end of the day

Uhrm... why not?

Most people regard racism and sexism as pretty not-nice things. What makes it "invalid criticism"?

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Wh...what? Your opinion isn't less valid. That's why you have an equal right to voice it.

Again, though, I have to point out that there's no earthly reason I, or anybody else, should have to create our own game before we can have an opinion. Again; artistic criticism is a big part of why this forum exists.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Why would there be any risk in that? If you wanted games with less diversity or male protagonists, you could just make them! Everyone would be happily playing the games of their own creation, and we'd have no need for developers or publishers any more!

And why stop there?

Unhappy with that film? Don't criticize it, make the film you want to see!
Unhappy with your car? Don't criticize it, make the car you want to drive!
Unhappy with your country's military industrial complex? Don't criticize it, become the general of an upstart militia and form your own military industrial complex!

you are the one asking for change, you are the ones asking the artist to compromise its vision

also your comparisons are incredibly flawed, i can critize your argument, according to you now you must change it to fit my views

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

for starters, none of this

Spoiler: Articles Image.

or anita and her lying, and devs getting blacklisted, or being accused of false things

If the "agendas" to which you referred were just stuff against 'gamer' as an identity, that's absolutely fine.

I thought you may have also been referring to issues of representation, feminism, etc, and wanting them "out of gaming".

I apologise if that wasn't the case.

hey if these folks want to try their hand at game development, change the representation, good for them, they might even find a good market for that

i dont think anybody actually cares that much, nobody critized "my boyfriend the space tyrant", atleast i havent heard of such thing happening

a game is not worse just bacause is racist or sexist, you can express your opinion about those topics all you want, but its not valid criticism at the end of the day

Uhrm... why not?

Most people regard racism and sexism as pretty not-nice things. What makes it "invalid criticism"?

because you are now analizing the message instead of the work of art

it would be like making a car, its the best car ever made, but it has "kill all jews" written on the side, does that make the car worse as a car?

now dont get me wrong, its not like you cant express your opinion on the message of a work of art, thats perfectly fine, you might even make the artist reconsider and such, my problem with this is when people get waaay too offensive about it, and start accusing artists or being misogynistic or racist over stuff that might not necessarily be racist or sexist, this attitude is harmful, unless you know for sure the person behind the work of art is racist or sexist, you shouldnt call em that

because while these allegations mean nothing to your standard klansman, it can ruin the job opportunities, lives and relationships of that guy that simply wanted to design a female character with big tits, not because he is misogynistic, but because that was his idea for a character and it was appealing to him

if you want more games with female protagonists, why not make then? what about the people who dont want to see the artist's vision compromised? how is our opinion less valid than that of the people who want more diversity?

Wh...what? Your opinion isn't less valid. That's why you have an equal right to voice it.

Again, though, I have to point out that there's no earthly reason I, or anybody else, should have to create our own game before we can have an opinion. Again; artistic criticism is a big part of why this forum exists.

well like i said we can all voice our opinion about this, good we agree on that

if you guys arent offensive i dont mind if you express your concerns about the portrayal of a character in a game, the artist is free to use those ideas or not

 

[Silvanus]

hey if these folks want to try their hand at game development, change the representation, good for them, they might even find a good market for that

Indeed! Or, alternatively, they could offer criticism, which is a big part of the purpose of this website.

Wait, so is representation one of the "agendas" you'd like to keep out of gaming?

i dont think anybody actually cares that much, nobody critized "my boyfriend the space tyrant", atleast i havent heard of such thing happening

That would be because it's a relatively low-profile little indie game. A single (very small) example doesn't mean everything is equal, and MBFTST is- as far as I've heard- the only game with a written gay protagonist.

For comparison, Bioware did indeed receive criticism for including a gay character in Dragon Age: Inquisition. There've also been rather aggressive (and sometimes rather hateful) responses made to calls for inclusion in other franchises.

because you are now analizing the message instead of the work of art

it would be like making a car, its the best car ever made, but it has "kill all jews" written on the side, does that make the car worse as a car?

It certainly makes it a car that I won't drive.

Cars have a single function. They can fulfil that function well, or poorly, and the design-scheme is superficial. This is not the case with art. The story is a fundamental part. It's perfectly right to focus on it.

now dont get me wrong, its not like you cant express your opinion on the message of a work of art, thats perfectly fine, you might even make the artist reconsider and such, my problem with this is when people get waaay too offensive about it, and start accusing artists or being misogynistic or racist over stuff that might not necessarily be racist or sexist, this attitude is harmful, unless you know for sure the person behind the work of art is racist or sexist, you shouldnt call em that

because while these allegations mean nothing to your standard klansman, it can ruin the job opportunities, lives and relationships of that guy that simply wanted to design a female character with big tits, not because he is misogynistic, but because that was his idea for a character and it was appealing to him

This is why I prefer to criticise the art, rather than the artist.

well like i said we can all voice our opinion about this, good we agree on that

if you guys arent offensive i dont mind if you express your concerns about the portrayal of a character in a game, the artist is free to use those ideas or not

Indeed. We do have common ground, even if it's a little islandy bit of common ground.

I'm still not quite sure why you seemed to assume I thought your opinion was less valid; and I'm still a little iffy about when you said we should keep our "agendas" out of video gaming, and would like clarification on that.

The biggest thing that gets my shackles up is when I read sentiments that seem exclusionary. If those "agendas" include any efforts to increase minority representation, then... yeah. That sounds rather directly exclusionary.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

you are the one asking for change

I am?

you are the ones asking the artist to compromise its vision

Are you suggesting all games ascribe to auteur theory? Are you suggesting that "visions" can never be subject to change? Are you suggesting all criticism is moot because it might result in the author compromising "the vision"? Or only certain criticisms?

also your comparisons are incredibly flawed

Oh please DO explain how.

i can critize your argument, according to you now you must change it to fit my views

Really? That's according to me, is it? I made the argument that upon receiving criticism, artists must immediately act upon it? I don't REMEMBER making that argument, but I'm sure as you do you'll be happy to locate it and quote it for me so I can reflect upon it.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

hey if these folks want to try their hand at game development, change the representation, good for them, they might even find a good market for that

Indeed! Or, alternatively, they could offer criticism, which is a big part of the purpose of this website.

Wait, so is representation one of the "agendas" you'd like to keep out of gaming?

well i consider agendas the vilifying of people who dont share their vision of equality, their unequal threatment of women and men regarding their personal lifes, the pushing of a narratives over balanced reporting, and this crap

Spoiler

Spoiler

giving games lower scores for their "sexist" portrayal of women isnt just incredibly stupid, is also intellectual defeatism

"theres a sexy women in that game, therefore is sexist, therefore its crap"

heres a little analysis someone made about dragon crown's soceress which actually left me impressed, the design is not mere fan service, is actually a very original and deliberate despiction of a necromancer in a fantasy setting, one could even argue is EMPOWERING to women

Spoiler

i dont think anybody actually cares that much, nobody critized "my boyfriend the space tyrant", atleast i havent heard of such thing happening

That would be because it's a relatively low-profile little indie game. A single (very small) example doesn't mean everything is equal, and MBFTST is- as far as I've heard- the only game with a written gay protagonist.

For comparison, Bioware did indeed receive criticism for including a gay character in Dragon Age: Inquisition. There've also been rather aggressive (and sometimes rather hateful) responses made to calls for inclusion in other franchises.

we have to be careful with these allegations, ive seen gay/bi people critize bioware games because of their despiction of gay/bi characters, they dont feel is empowering, they feel is pandering, and they are added just as tokens

personally i dont oppose the inclusion of gay characters in a game if thats what the creator wants, i just dont want to see him forced to

because you are now analizing the message instead of the work of art

it would be like making a car, its the best car ever made, but it has "kill all jews" written on the side, does that make the car worse as a car?

It certainly makes it a car that I won't drive.

Cars have a single function. They can fulfil that function well, or poorly, and the design-scheme is superficial. This is not the case with art. The story is a fundamental part. It's perfectly right to focus on it.

but isnt a game's function to entertain via its mechanics and gameplay? i dont see how that is affected by the character model

i can see how some piece of art can be offensive to people, that doesnt make it bad, i remember being highly offended by this south park episode involving a statue of virgin mary, but i wont ask the writers to take it down, neither do i consider my personal feelings a valid criticism towards the episode

they can listen to my opinion and realize some of their audience wont consume their product in the way it is despicted, but thats about it

now dont get me wrong, its not like you cant express your opinion on the message of a work of art, thats perfectly fine, you might even make the artist reconsider and such, my problem with this is when people get waaay too offensive about it, and start accusing artists or being misogynistic or racist over stuff that might not necessarily be racist or sexist, this attitude is harmful, unless you know for sure the person behind the work of art is racist or sexist, you shouldnt call em that

because while these allegations mean nothing to your standard klansman, it can ruin the job opportunities, lives and relationships of that guy that simply wanted to design a female character with big tits, not because he is misogynistic, but because that was his idea for a character and it was appealing to him

This is why I prefer to criticise the art, rather than the artist.

very well, lets keep it like that

well like i said we can all voice our opinion about this, good we agree on that

if you guys arent offensive i dont mind if you express your concerns about the portrayal of a character in a game, the artist is free to use those ideas or not

Indeed. We do have common ground, even if it's a little islandy bit of common ground.

I'm still not quite sure why you seemed to assume I thought your opinion was less valid; and I'm still a little iffy about when you said we should keep our "agendas" out of video gaming, and would like clarification on that.

The biggest thing that gets my shackles up is when I read sentiments that seem exclusionary. If those "agendas" include any efforts to increase minority representation, then... yeah. That sounds rather directly exclusionary.

it was a haslty conclusion i made and i apologize

and i wasnt talking about you in particular when i meant agendas, i was taking about extremist advocates of social justice

it is not my intention to exclude minorities from gaming, and honestly i think thats almost impossible considering the diverse and huge democraphics of gamers, my intention is to keep all voices being equally heard, those for and agaisnt this issue, and not have anyone from either side being bullied into submission

 

[Silvanus]

well i consider agendas the vilifying of people who dont share their vision of equality, their unequal threatment of women and men regarding their personal lifes, the pushing of a narratives over balanced reporting, and this crap

Spoiler

Spoiler

giving games lower scores for their "sexist" portrayal of women isnt just incredibly stupid, is also intellectual defeatism

"theres a sexy women in that game, therefore is sexist, therefore its crap"

While we may disagree with those reviews, the style and content are still perfectly valid avenues of criticism. Games are art; they exist for style and story as well as pure function, as do books and movies.

We may disagree, but there's no moral and honest reason to demand other peoples' points of view are "kept out of gaming". It's no more our hobby than it is theirs.

heres a little analysis someone made about dragon crown's soceress which actually left me impressed, the design is not mere fan service, is actually a very original and deliberate despiction of a necromancer in a fantasy setting, one could even argue is EMPOWERING to women

Spoiler

It's an interesting perspective, but I must say I don't buy it, personally. Breasts are life-giving, sure, but she's also straddling the skeleton, and seems to be wrapping her ass around her stave.

we have to be careful with these allegations, ive seen gay/bi people critize bioware games because of their despiction of gay/bi characters, they dont feel is empowering, they feel is pandering, and they are added just as tokens

personally i dont oppose the inclusion of gay characters in a game if thats what the creator wants, i just dont want to see him forced to

Criticism is not force, of course.

Gay/bi people are not homogeneous, and tokenism is a very interesting avenue of discussion. I can't really see how the inclusion of a gay option can be seen as tokenism, though, when straight romances are exactly as freely available. Either way, the fact remains that games (and TV shows, and films, and literature) receive criticism for depicting gay people at all, regardless of the manner of portrayal.

but isnt a game's function to entertain via its mechanics and gameplay? i dont see how that is affected by the character model

Not for everyone. I play a great number of narrative-driven games, and would not enjoy them nearly as much if the stories were poorer.

The Walking Dead, TLOU, the Final Fantasy series. Silent Hill. Half-Life. Okami. The Arkham Games. Hell, most of my modern mainstays are my favourites precisely because of narrative, immersion, story and style.

very well, lets keep it like that

This sounds rather untrusting.

it was a haslty conclusion i made and i apologize

and i wasnt talking about you in particular when i meant agendas, i was taking about extremist advocates of social justice

it is not my intention to exclude minorities from gaming, and honestly i think thats almost impossible considering the diverse and huge democraphics of gamers, my intention is to keep all voices being equally heard, those for and agaisnt this issue, and not have anyone from either side being bullied into submission

Well, that's the thing. Currently, the voices against "SJW"s are the most numerous by far. I've barely seen anybody who could genuinely be considered such (going by the definitions given by posters here), and yet the backlash against this unseen enemy is gigantic.

This... kinda leads me to conclude that minorities themselves, for whom these "SJWs" supposedly fight, will be the ones that really lose out. That's what I feel when I see people labelled "SJW" for talking about a minority, in a completely polite way, without making demands or even suggestions. It's what I feel when I see games labelled as "SJW" games for the inclusion of diverse themes.

 

[blackmanon4chan]

Well she's using the term SJW at all, a stupid term used by stupid people, so clearly she's a moron. Not much else to say really.

That doesnt seem very logical at all. Its actually to help to distinguish between a zealot and someone who tries to actually help people. Like warrior and bully for example. So I disagree with your protestation that she is moron because she uses a term to describe the people who colloquially best fit the description.

I'm all for calling people who go too far out, but to be honest the term SJW has just been abused too much. I have little doubt that many people honestly reserve it for extremists, but there are just too many people out there who throw it at anyone who shows the slightest interest in the portrayal of women/PoC/LGBT characters in gaming. The phrase just has too much baggage and now whenever someone sees it, they have to play a guessing game to see if it's being used properly or not, and because of bad experiences, a lot of people don't think it is being used properly, if it ever was.

replace sjw with racist and you have the same problem. yeah there were people who diverse the title but just because its been overused doesn't make it any less descriptive or viable. as such you need to look at the writers/speakers intent and then disprove their accusation rather than saying "anyone calling racism is playing the race card".

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

While we may disagree with those reviews, the style and content are still perfectly valid avenues of criticism. Games are art; they exist for style and story as well as pure function, as do books and movies.

We may disagree, but there's no moral and honest reason to demand other peoples' points of view are "kept out of gaming". It's no more our hobby than it is theirs.

the problem is that, its not much different from me reviewing dust an elysian tail and knocking points off of it for its furry art style, i legitimately didnt like the style, but dust isnt a worse game because of it, the animation is in fact very fluid and detailed and the gameplay is overall fantastic

same here, and i dont think any other medium does this kind of stuff, just take a look at the birth of a nation, regarded by some as one of the greatest american films of all time and very innovative with its film techniques (at the time)

and its a KKK film, it caused an uproar even at the time of release and the director was actually force to many another film as some sort of apology, but still, the critics to this day recognize the merits of the film, the message is another thing entirely

It's an interesting perspective, but I must say I don't buy it, personally. Breasts are life-giving, sure, but she's also straddling the skeleton, and seems to be wrapping her ass around her stave.

personally i do buy it, its not the first time vanillaware comes up with the design, it seems deliberate

Criticism is not force, of course.

of course

Gay/bi people are not homogeneous, and tokenism is a very interesting avenue of discussion. I can't really see how the inclusion of a gay option can be seen as tokenism, though, when straight romances are exactly as freely available. Either way, the fact remains that games (and TV shows, and films, and literature) receive criticism for depicting gay people at all, regardless of the manner of portrayal.

i havent seen much criticism towards gays in other media to be honest, maybe im disconnected in that regard

im not assuming the gay/bi community is homogenous, only that we should be careful of confusing homophobia with legitimate criticism

i assume tokenism can be a problem when you add characters "just because" ANY character added "just because" can potentially make the narrative very jarring, and this isnt an issue exclusive to gay/bi characters, things like mascots characters, characters made only to sell toys, etc. they can fuck up a good story

you bring dragon age inquisition, a franchise that has already attracted some flak with the 2nd installment of the series, but i bring up Persona 4, a game with a cast that includes a transvestite woman and a bi/gay man, and the whole cast of characters of the game is almost universally acclaimed. i personally loved the way they handled kangi... well, for the most part

but isnt a game's function to entertain via its mechanics and gameplay? i dont see how that is affected by the character model

Not for everyone. I play a great number of narrative-driven games, and would not enjoy them nearly as much if the stories were poorer.

The Walking Dead, TLOU, the Final Fantasy series. Silent Hill. Half-Life. Okami. The Arkham Games. Hell, most of my modern mainstays are my favourites precisely because of narrative, immersion, story and style.

thats a fair point, but even then, personally i think the outer appeareance of the characters shouldnt really make them worse characters

yoko from gurren lagann for instance, boy, almost every shot of her puts emphasis on her body, and she is well, pretty damn sexy, but she is still one of the best and better developed character of the series

very well, lets keep it like that

This sounds rather untrusting.

dont take it the wrong way

it was a haslty conclusion i made and i apologize

and i wasnt talking about you in particular when i meant agendas, i was taking about extremist advocates of social justice

it is not my intention to exclude minorities from gaming, and honestly i think thats almost impossible considering the diverse and huge democraphics of gamers, my intention is to keep all voices being equally heard, those for and agaisnt this issue, and not have anyone from either side being bullied into submission

Well, that's the thing. Currently, the voices against "SJW"s are the most numerous by far. I've barely seen anybody who could genuinely be considered such (going by the definitions given by posters here), and yet the backlash against this unseen enemy is gigantic.

This... kinda leads me to conclude that minorities themselves, for whom these "SJWs" supposedly fight, will be the ones that really lose out. That's what I feel when I see people labelled "SJW" for talking about a minority, in a completely polite way, without making demands or even suggestions. It's what I feel when I see games labelled as "SJW" games for the inclusion of diverse themes.

the problem is that the voices pro-sjw are tyring to control the narrative in many major gaming websites at the moment

- gamers are being called terrorists, literally, we are being compared to people that kill, bomb and behead innocents
- gamers are beign told they are dead
- white straight male games keep being vilified, im not even white and i hate this crap because i have white friends on the internet and i know many white people i respect on the internet, i come from a country where theres basically no racism, for me, degrading someone for being white is not different from degrading someone for being black
- many gaming sites refuse to give equal treatment to both men and women, a man can get his name dragged in the mud, his career destroyed, and yeah people like you know who arent even touched, their stories published as fact with nothing but their word for it
- gaming being rated lower for their artistic decisions or character designs, even if the person behind those characters design is also a woman

the escapist is what all gaming websites should look up as example of how gaming journalism is done, ever since the change of policies, have you seen the escapist cover one site mroe than the other?


as for minorities, well, personally as a non-white im more annoyed by those SJWs that try to speak for me than by anybody else... errm, not talking about you of course, but, nobody asked me if i was offended by white characters, and now these people say i am

 

[GloatingSwine]

Whatever you think of the SJW label, what's for sure is that a sensible person won't ever call herself one. The article is therefore suspect.

That's because it was invented as pejorative term for a nonexistent social conspiracy which in reality consists of some people asking other people to treat people like people.

If you see someone using the term as if it's serious, it should be a major red flag for their credibility.

 

[Silvanus]

the problem is that, its not much different from me reviewing dust an elysian tail and knocking points off of it for its furry art style, i legitimately didnt like the style, but dust isnt a worse game because of it, the animation is in fact very fluid and detailed and the gameplay is overall fantastic

Criticising a style is perfectly valid-- I would consider that a legitimate criticism, if you explained it well in the review.

Still, prejudice and stereotyping are a little more insidious than just using a style one doesn't care for.

i havent seen much criticism towards gays in other media to be honest, maybe im disconnected in that regard

im not assuming the gay/bi community is homogenous, only that we should be careful of confusing homophobia with legitimate criticism

i assume tokenism can be a problem when you add characters "just because" ANY character added "just because" can potentially make the narrative very jarring, and this isnt an issue exclusive to gay/bi characters, things like mascots characters, characters made only to sell toys, etc. they can fuck up a good story

you bring dragon age inquisition, a franchise that has already attracted some flak with the 2nd installment of the series, but i bring up Persona 4, a game with a cast that includes a transvestite woman and a bi/gay man, and the whole cast of characters of the game is almost universally acclaimed. i personally loved the way they handled kangi... well, for the most part

I've spoken of that one elsewhere before; I haven't played the game, but read that Kanji's "realisation" is not about his sexuality; he says that doesn't matter, and the only romantic attraction his real self displays is for a woman.

I'm certainly not saying this isn't a good portrayal; I'm certainly not saying it doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's not quite the same thing.

My point is, I'm still looking for a good long while before I find a game with a written protagonist that represents me. Of course, I don't need a protagonist to represent me, but it starts to feel alienating when people repeatedly tell me how little it matters, how unimportant my wish is... when they get to experience precisely what I'm missing out on.

thats a fair point, but even then, personally i think the outer appeareance of the characters shouldnt really make them worse characters

yoko from gurren lagann for instance, boy, almost every shot of her puts emphasis on her body, and she is well, pretty damn sexy, but she is still one of the best and better developed character of the series

Indeed. I'm not focusing on outward appearances; I'm more concerned with the journeys the characters take, their characterisation, development, and interactions.

the problem is that the voices pro-sjw are tyring to control the narrative in many major gaming websites at the moment

- gamers are being called terrorists, literally, we are being compared to people that kill, bomb and behead innocents
- gamers are beign told they are dead
- white straight male games keep being vilified, im not even white and i hate this crap because i have white friends on the internet and i know many white people i respect on the internet, i come from a country where theres basically no racism, for me, degrading someone for being white is not different from degrading someone for being black
- many gaming sites refuse to give equal treatment to both men and women, a man can get his name dragged in the mud, his career destroyed, and yeah people like you know who arent even touched, their stories published as fact with nothing but their word for it
- gaming being rated lower for their artistic decisions or character designs, even if the person behind those characters design is also a woman

the escapist is what all gaming websites should look up as example of how gaming journalism is done, ever since the change of policies, have you seen the escapist cover one site mroe than the other?


as for minorities, well, personally as a non-white im more annoyed by those SJWs that try to speak for me than by anybody else... errm, not talking about you of course, but, nobody asked me if i was offended by white characters, and now these people say i am

Comparisons of gamers with terrorists and such are, of course, just patently absurd. Completely ridiculous. That said, I've seen the same kind of stuff said of "SJW"s.

As for white straight males being vilified... this is again something I've seen the reaction to, much more than I've seen the phenomenon itself.

A disclaimer is warranted, of course, that nobody should claim to speak for you, or speak over you. That's not cool. I'm not part of any movement on this issue, but I'll take the time to distance myself from any and all shitty behaviour.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Criticising a style is perfectly valid-- I would consider that a legitimate criticism, if you explained it well in the review.

ok i cant agree with you there

Still, prejudice and stereotyping are a little more insidious than just using a style one doesn't care for.

PERCEIVED prejudice, something that might not even exist, there could me misunderstandings, like i showed you even the sorceress can be seen as an enpowering character or an objectifying one

and again, that didnt stop critics from praising a birth of a nation

I've spoken of that one elsewhere before; I haven't played the game, but read that Kanji's "realisation" is not about his sexuality; he says that doesn't matter, and the only romantic attraction his real self displays is for a woman.

I'm certainly not saying this isn't a good portrayal; I'm certainly not saying it doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's not quite the same thing.

you need to play the game, kanji thought this woman was a man, and his personal journey actually involves accepting the posibility he could be gay/bi, and the story handles this well, within the game, theres this "midnight channel" a realm in which a person's biggest fears or conflicts materialize as a dungeon, kanji's dungeon is a sauna in wihch the monsters are a bunch of muscular men, his inner self, when rejected by kanji also turns into a homoerotic monster

My point is, I'm still looking for a good long while before I find a game with a written protagonist that represents me. Of course, I don't need a protagonist to represent me, but it starts to feel alienating when people repeatedly tell me how little it matters, how unimportant my wish is... when they get to experience precisely what I'm missing out on.

is not unimportant bro, and you must make your sentiment be known, in a respectful way, im sure people will take into consideration your feelings

then again, i guess i never really cared too much in projecting myself into the character, ive played as whites, blacks, women, anthropomorphic animals, etc

Indeed. I'm not focusing on outward appearances; I'm more concerned with the journeys the characters take, their characterisation, development, and interactions.

indeed my brother of soul

Comparisons of gamers with terrorists and such are, of course, just patently absurd. Completely ridiculous. That said, I've seen the same kind of stuff said of "SJW"s.

As for white straight males being vilified... this is again something I've seen the reaction to, much more than I've seen the phenomenon itself.

A disclaimer is warranted, of course, that nobody should claim to speak for you, or speak over you. That's not cool. I'm not part of any movement on this issue, but I'll take the time to distance myself from any and all shitty behaviour.

i dont know, ive been to the cathedral of misogyny itself, theres very few people accusing everyone advocating for diversity of nazis and/or terrorists, in fact, in every discussion about it, without fail, every time some idiot trying to stir shit up says stuff like "dont trust gays/trans" etc, he gets shot down, people insult him and mock him

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay, Fredrick Brennan "hotwheels" the owners of 8chan, is handicapped and has a severe birth defect, people love him, Christina H. Sommers a moderate feminist, 8chan has come to affectionately refer to her as "based mom", and the whole #notyourshield thing

there might be hateful people there, i dont doubt it, but for the most part, its just folks who want better journalism, who believe they deserve better journalism

they also like the escapist, and the site is not explicitly pro-gamergate, it simply covers it and allows free discussion of the topic

also considering all the "husbando" and "trap" threads, i struggle to believe there isnt a considerable amount of gays and bis there, and of course people from all races and some women as well

 

[Silvanus]

PERCEIVED prejudice, something that might not even exist, there could me misunderstandings, like i showed you even the sorceress can be seen as an enpowering character or an objectifying one

and again, that didnt stop critics from praising a birth of a nation

Indeed. Critics should praise some aspects, and criticise others; I wouldn't consider it complex criticism if they didn't. Either way, though, even if style is off-limits, content must be perfectly fair game if the medium wishes to tell a story.

you need to play the game, kanji thought this woman was a man, and his personal journey actually involves accepting the posibility he could be gay/bi, and the story handles this well, within the game, theres this "midnight channel" a realm in which a person's biggest fears or conflicts materialize as a dungeon, kanji's dungeon is a sauna in wihch the monsters are a bunch of muscular men, his inner self, when rejected by kanji also turns into a homoerotic monster

I read about that. Maybe I do need to play it to understand. It just seemed that his realisation had more to do with others' perceptions of him than his own sexuality [http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120825212659/megamitensei/images/thumb/f/f2/On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.jpg/250px-On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.webp], and it is notable that his only real-world attraction is straight. You must admit, that seems far from clear-cut.

is not unimportant bro, and you must make your sentiment be known, in a respectful way, im sure people will take into consideration your feelings

then again, i guess i never really cared too much in projecting myself into the character, ive played as whites, blacks, women, anthropomorphic animals, etc

Some people do (you've shown yourself to be respectful yourself, as have others I've started out arguing with), it's true.

Those that disagree aren't hateful (usually); they just tend to be dismissive, or to lose sight of the fact that straight people get to experience media that represents and reinforces their relationships all the time. Don't mind me, now, I'm just sounding off.

i dont know, ive been to the cathedral of misogyny itself, theres very few people accusing everyone advocating for diversity of nazis and/or terrorists, in fact, in every discussion about it, without fail, every time some idiot trying to stir shit up says stuff like "dont trust gays/trans" etc, he gets shot down, people insult him and mock him

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay, Fredrick Brennan "hotwheels" the owners of 8chan, is handicapped and has a severe birth defect, people love him, Christina H. Sommers a moderate feminist, 8chan has come to affectionately refer to her as "based mom", and the whole #notyourshield thing

there might be hateful people there, i dont doubt it, but for the most part, its just folks who want better journalism, who believe they deserve better journalism

they also like the escapist, and the site is not explicitly pro-gamergate, it simply covers it and allows free discussion of the topic

also considering all the "husbando" and "trap" threads, i struggle to believe there isnt a considerable amount of gays and bis there, and of course people from all races and some women as well

I'm glad to hear it. Hell, maybe if the bad blood cools down, I'll get to build a different image of the movement.

As it is, when I hear that dreaded three-letter abbreviation, it feels to me that the person who uttered it is likely to have some misplaced anger-- and that diversity in gaming is likely to be lose out if that's the image that journalists and developers get of their playerbase.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

PERCEIVED prejudice, something that might not even exist, there could me misunderstandings, like i showed you even the sorceress can be seen as an enpowering character or an objectifying one

and again, that didnt stop critics from praising a birth of a nation

Indeed. Critics should praise some aspects, and criticise others; I wouldn't consider it complex criticism if they didn't. Either way, though, even if style is off-limits, content must be perfectly fair game if the medium wishes to tell a story.

i can perfectly understand a comment, something like "the artstyle/character designs might be off-putting for some people" i think thats a perfectly fine comment that lets the reader know about what to expect from the game, but to argue the game is worse because of that? no, i dont think its fair to the creator or the creation

you need to play the game, kanji thought this woman was a man, and his personal journey actually involves accepting the posibility he could be gay/bi, and the story handles this well, within the game, theres this "midnight channel" a realm in which a person's biggest fears or conflicts materialize as a dungeon, kanji's dungeon is a sauna in wihch the monsters are a bunch of muscular men, his inner self, when rejected by kanji also turns into a homoerotic monster

I read about that. Maybe I do need to play it to understand. It just seemed that his realisation had more to do with others' perceptions of him than his own sexuality [http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120825212659/megamitensei/images/thumb/f/f2/On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.jpg/250px-On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.webp], and it is notable that his only real-world attraction is straight. You must admit, that seems far from clear-cut.

i highly recommend it, regardless of the story arcs of kanji and naoto the game is simply fun, one of my favorites

i did say "for the most part" it does have an air of the devs chickening out at the last moment when it comes to kanji's story, and it might undermine somewhat his struggle, but still, he had no idea naoto was a woman at the time, and if you hear his dialogue, its clear naoto was just the straw that broke the camel's back, he had those doubts about himself for a long time

is not unimportant bro, and you must make your sentiment be known, in a respectful way, im sure people will take into consideration your feelings

then again, i guess i never really cared too much in projecting myself into the character, ive played as whites, blacks, women, anthropomorphic animals, etc

Some people do (you've shown yourself to be respectful yourself, as have others I've started out arguing with), it's true.

Those that disagree aren't hateful (usually); they just tend to be dismissive, or to lose sight of the fact that straight people get to experience media that represents and reinforces their relationships all the time. Don't mind me, now, I'm just sounding off.

if it makes you feel better, i do feel gaming is getting more and more able to handle those kind of stories, look at the last of us' DLC, its just a shame some people tried to ride the horse of "social justice" for their own gains, it might hurt the legitimacy of devs that want to make these kind of games for a while, at the cathedral of misogyny there are quite a few paranoids already, i try to calm them the fuck down when i can, just because a game has a minority doesnt mean its SJW, i mean fuck are you going to tell me Just Cause 2 advocates social justice? i dont think the game has time for that, its too busy being a fun game

i dont know, ive been to the cathedral of misogyny itself, theres very few people accusing everyone advocating for diversity of nazis and/or terrorists, in fact, in every discussion about it, without fail, every time some idiot trying to stir shit up says stuff like "dont trust gays/trans" etc, he gets shot down, people insult him and mock him

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay, Fredrick Brennan "hotwheels" the owners of 8chan, is handicapped and has a severe birth defect, people love him, Christina H. Sommers a moderate feminist, 8chan has come to affectionately refer to her as "based mom", and the whole #notyourshield thing

there might be hateful people there, i dont doubt it, but for the most part, its just folks who want better journalism, who believe they deserve better journalism

they also like the escapist, and the site is not explicitly pro-gamergate, it simply covers it and allows free discussion of the topic

also considering all the "husbando" and "trap" threads, i struggle to believe there isnt a considerable amount of gays and bis there, and of course people from all races and some women as well

I'm glad to hear it. Hell, maybe if the bad blood cools down, I'll get to build a different image of the movement.

As it is, when I hear that dreaded three-letter abbreviation, it feels to me that the person who uttered it is likely to have some misplaced anger-- and that diversity in gaming is likely to be lose out if that's the image that journalists and developers get of their playerbase.

i wont deny people often direct that word to the wrong groups, i already had a discussion with another fella here about that, hes also into the whole diversity thing, i agreed with him that there are fanatics and idiots on both sides and the term SJW can end up targeting the wrong people

 

[WhiteNachos]

Wait...why is it "sjw woman" and not just "sjw"?

Well, a shield's better than a sword. It's good to hear the story of someone who made up their own mind after being swept up in this frenzy.

Because an SJW can be a man.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Wait...why is it "sjw woman" and not just "sjw"?

. SJW comes from men's rights activists

where do you get your information, because it sounds like it comes from "the sun". Really where the hek did you read that SJW come from men's rights activists? And where did you find slut shaming at #gamergate?

This is a joke, right?

The first usage of Social Justice Warrior seems to be taken from Fuck No Tumblr Social Justice (later amended to Fuck No Tumblr SJW), a parody of Tumblr's "Fuck Yeah" aggregator pages, ironically hosted ON TUMBLR. Their first post is about how the asexual community should shut up and it devolves from there. It was closely followed by the style-identical Shit Social Justice Allies Say, which has since vanished but is reposted suspiciously heavily on Misandry-The Hatred of Men, an anti social justice tumblr page purportedly written by a lady with lots of edgy stuff to say about ladies. YOUR WORDS ARE NOT NEW.

As for no slut-shaming in gamergate, I guess just asking you to read a few pages of it is too much?

You missed the part where you showed that those people are MRAs.

And u have no sources

 

[Dragonmouth]

I know I do this alot, I know this is my thing and I should probably talk about something like how cool that heavy bullets game is.( Ill start a thread on that later) But I feel that this womans words are worth hearing. People need to know what kinds of change are positive for them and for everyone around and what changes are not. Here she describes in detail what changes are not good for gamers and I think that once the majority of us understand this we can overcome and do something to make gaming more inclusive and not just guilt ridden and angry.

Im sorry mario your vast social change is in another castle.

The article here:http://mindlesszombiestudios.com/content/gamergate-you-can-call-me-shield

Some quotes from the article.

"This is how SJW's work. They make you fear yourself, your impact on the world and force you to hate what you are. Then when you are quiet and trying to figure out how to interact with the world they speak for you, and you, scared, tired and hating yourself latch on to what they tell you to say. I fell for it."

"Gaming saved me from killing myself during that time and in short order I left the SJW websites and stuck to gaming and activism through local gaming means. Through gaming and friends I met there I began calling myself a liberal moderate and protested for causes I believed in rather than writing blog posts about it."

Soooooooooooooo guys I know its tiring buttttttttt what do you think?

It seems like this person had mental or emotional problems beyond what "SJWs" wrote about some video games and scapegoated them for criticizing something she enjoyed. I'm glad that she found solace in gaming but any art form, including video games, will be criticized and if that criticism made her uncomfortable, she should have just ignored it.

 

[Dragonmouth]

I think the entire SJW label is taking crap way too far. It's pointless. If you're sick of people making arguments about things that they believe in then get off the goddamn forums. Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down.

hey, these people can talk about diversity the entire day, i dont mind, as long as they dont insult, shame or harass devs and gamers

if they can keep their agendas out of gaming, i personally wont have a problem with them, and if they want more inclusive games, just make em, noone is stopping them

Yet insulting, harassing, and shaming devs is what "anti-SJWs" do all the time.

 

[Terminal Blue]

heres a little analysis someone made about dragon crown's soceress which actually left me impressed, the design is not mere fan service, is actually a very original and deliberate despiction of a necromancer in a fantasy setting, one could even argue is EMPOWERING to women

Spoiler

That impressed you?

Fucking hell man..

Never, ever, ever talk about unbaised reporting or "narratives" ever again, because obviously you only have a problem with narratives when they don't serve your interests, and that's completely fine. Go ahead, use narratives however you want. You can have stupid opinions. You can use bad mythpoetic content analysis to try and justify your desire to play games one handed. You can even interpret questionable archaeological evidence to fit whatever story you want. If you think that's a really important thing to help you understand or appreciate a product, then go ahead.

But stop trying to prevent other people from doing the same because they happen to disagree with you. That is censorship.

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay

That's true.

He's also a hypocrite who argued that gay people shouldn't be able to get married or be equal in law (winning Stonewall's "homophobe of the year" award by doing so, against some very stiff competition) then got quietly engaged to his partner when people with more vision than himself won that argument.

I have great respect for those people who attempt to reconcile their faith and sexuality, doing so is often one of the bravest things a person can do. What I don't respect is people who cynically pander to bigotry in hopes of sparing themselves its worst excesses.