An end to the Sandbox plague.

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Rangaman

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I love exploration-based games, I really do. I would just like to get that out there before the following statement: Sandboxes have become a plague on the industry.

They're everywhere, even when they are completely unnecessary. Steep is the best recent example that comes to mind. It's not my thing, but it looked fine as a standard collection of sporting minigames ala SSX Tricky. The sandbox component feels about as out of place as a treadmill in an iHop.

Sandboxes should only exist if they benefit the game in some way and actually make sense. I didn't buy The Witcher 3 just because it was an open-word game, I bought it because it was a good game. Adding a sandbox will not make your game sell. It's the concept of your game is what sells it. You didn't buy Assassin's Creed 2 for the open world, you bought it to bring out your hatred of people with un-stabbed necks.

There are games where the sandbox benefits the gameplay, like Just Cause, or Skyrim. But an uncessary or lazy open world is just the worst. This is something that needs to end. Publishers, Ubisoft especially, need to learn that a sandbox is not a selling point. I will not buy Days Gone because it's an open-world zombie game. That's like trying to sell me a cucumber sandwich made from Coles-brand white bread. I would buy if it had, say, unique gameplay, or a good story. But at the current rate, there is no sign of that. It comes across as "buy this game because it has a sandbox and zombies".

We don't need a generic sandpox, we need more games that aren't afraid of perhaps having a world that has structure and is not the size of Galatus' balls. Remember Half-Life 2? Or Mega Man X? Or any game that didn't require a sandbox to "make it fun"? We need more games like that, and less forced sandboxes.

Don't make them too linear though. I still have a bin full of the "linear empty spectacle" line of games.
 

Ambient_Malice

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Rangaman said:
Remember Half-Life 2?
The problem is that a good portion of the fickle market would slam a game like Half Life 2 if it were released today for being "too linear".
 

mad825

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slo said:
It is. Most people that "remember Half Life 2" haven't played it in a long long while and forgot how linear boring it is
Wait wait, HL2 is linear? Well no shit. I guess it's linear like Half-life (the original) and it's expansion Blue Shift, Opposing Force....And every other popular mods it has. It's boring? YMMV.

OP, I agree however it's the trend in gaming right now just like how FPSs were the thing back in the 90s/2000s. It's really WOWs fault for the current direction most games have gone.
 

Rangaman

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slo said:
Ambient_Malice said:
Rangaman said:
Remember Half-Life 2?
The problem is that a good portion of the fickle market would slam a game like Half Life 2 if it were released today for being "too linear".
It is. Most people that "remember Half Life 2" haven't played it in a long long while and forgot how linear and boring it is. Those vehicle sections were terrible. And everything up to Ravenholm was. And everything after they take all your guns away, leaving you with that stupid gravity gun as the only weapon.
You seem to have missed the point. I was arguing in favor of games that shirk a sandbox when it is unnecessary. Imagine if HL2 had an open world. Also, "boring". I would definitely argue that Half Life 2 is still a lot more engaging than modern shooters like Black Ops 2 and Battlefield 4, partially because it required actual intelligence from the player.

BTW, I don't think the modern market would burn Half-Life 2 for being too linear. DOOM seems to be doing pretty well, after all.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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slo said:
Ambient_Malice said:
Rangaman said:
Remember Half-Life 2?
The problem is that a good portion of the fickle market would slam a game like Half Life 2 if it were released today for being "too linear".
It is. Most people that "remember Half Life 2" haven't played it in a long long while and forgot how linear and boring it is. Those vehicle sections were terrible. And everything up to Ravenholm was. And everything after they take all your guns away, leaving you with that stupid gravity gun as the only weapon.
Half life 2 just doesn't hold up well. Half life 1 holds up better. The episodes hold up better too, but half life 2 naaa. The issue with it is that it is too linear. Not in the sense that it is a linear set of levels, but in the sense that the gamepaly doesn't have a lot of depth or diversity to it. (Seesaw puzzles for everyone!!)

But I digress. I am fine with the plague. It's like the locust are in town but I am a frog.
 

mad825

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slo said:
And this is precisely what I'm talking about. Neither in a long while, right?
You're going to have to divulge further. You are making no sense. I would like to have what you're having because you're clearly lacking any awareness.
 

Ambient_Malice

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Rangaman said:
Imagine if HL2 had an open world.
That was the entire point behind Homefront: The Revolution.

Rangaman said:
BTW, I don't think the modern market would burn Half-Life 2 for being too linear. DOOM seems to be doing pretty well, after all.
Doom 4 also has no story. A big factor with the "boo, hoo, this game is linear" whinining that started increasing in volume somewhere around 2010 was that games were both linear and story-driven. Half Life 2's "stand around and watch characters interact" stuff would be heavily attacked by the kind of people who praise Doom 4 for having barely any story.

All this said, I don't really have any issues with Half Life 2. There's nothing particularly wrong with the game. But I do think that it demonstrates the rock and hard place that game developers are in. There was a rumour that Half Life 3 might end up being an open world game. Such a game would get a mixed reception from people who are both "sick of linear CoD clones" and "sick of open world Far Cry clones".
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Rangaman said:
You didn't buy Assassin's Creed 2 for the open world, you bought it to bring out your hatred of people with un-stabbed necks.
I bought Assassin's Creed 2 for the open world actually.

Running around Italian cities is amazing and there's no cooler feeling than going to Florence or Venice on vacation and then finding your exact hotel room in the game because the historical town centers of those cities haven't changed in hundreds of years.

There's nothing wrong with open world games, it's not like you have to play all of them.
 

mad825

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slo said:
mad825 said:
slo said:
And this is precisely what I'm talking about. Neither in a long while, right?
You're going to have to divulge further. You are making no sense. I would like to have what you're having because you're clearly lacking any awareness.
Well, if your memories were more recent, you'd probably remeber that HL1 and HL2 do linearity in different ways and HL2 is not "as linear" as HL1. Because HL1 features quite a bit of exploration and backtracking, which was common to games of that time. HL2 got rid of all this and is just always forward. You're always on rails and never visit the same location twice. Which is a boring approach and it feels very tired nowadays.
HL1 has some retro appeal. HL2 is just an old modern game without much replay value.
Ugh. Its funny that two different locations constitutes a different gameplay design. Even so there are like two or three at most moments where you "back-track" and this exploration constitutes to "oh look, a power pack behind a rock". I'll throw your snarky comment right back at you, there are exploration segments in HL2 Did you not bother to explore the abandon houses?

Let me guess, you didn't bother to look inside there? Did you get the cache? Did you get all of the caches? I guess not.

Did you meet this guy?

Did you go in here?

Did you find this?and many...many more.


You thought the vehicle sections in HL2 are bad? Well I hope you enjoyed the tram ride in HL1

Nothing has really changed except for the theme, HL1 you're in a complex but HL2 you're exploring the world...And there's an actual plot.
 

FalloutJack

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*Looks up from the sandbox*

What? No, I'm having FUN here. It's not a plague.

Also, the break from sandboxing in this day and age would be DOOM.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Ezekiel said:
Open world is how I dream games to be. But the way open world games are now? Not a fan. It's always tedious mission structures segmented by bad cutscenes, and empty terrains or cities with lame grid plans.
Better than only playing games like this:


And this also includes games that have the same formula and does not have Military concept.
 

Rangaman

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slo said:
Rangaman said:
You seem to have missed the point. I was arguing in favor of games that shirk a sandbox when it is unnecessary. Imagine if HL2 had an open world. Also, "boring". I would definitely argue that Half Life 2 is still a lot more engaging than modern shooters like Black Ops 2 and Battlefield 4, partially because it required actual intelligence from the player.

BTW, I don't think the modern market would burn Half-Life 2 for being too linear. DOOM seems to be doing pretty well, after all.
If Half Life 2 had an open world, it'd just be a bit like Borderlands 2. Which I regard as a much better game, because it feels actually fun to me.
Granted, mileage may vary, but HL2 is being stuck in a tube and only moving forward for the most of the game. No exploration, no backtracking, nothing. Also those rooms where you need to solve a puzzle while endlessly respawning monsters shoot at you. UGH! That's just bad design.
If you want to compare HL2 to something modern and linear, Bioshock Infinite is your best shot. Feels as boring.
Someone else pointed out that it would actually be closer to Homefront: The Revolution. Or as I prefer, Backyard: The Renovation (god bless you Yatzhee).

Regardless, Rooftop: The Restoration had the problems I'm talking about. A pointless sandbox that added nothing of value to the game and only functioned as a setting for linear missions. Half Life 2 works as a linear story-driven game. If they added a sandbox, it wouldn't enhance the game in any way.

On a side note, I've never played Bioshock: Infinite, but it looks ridiculously fun. Perhaps you're just weird. Or is it me?
 

Xprimentyl

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The problem with sandboxes games today is that many also attempt a coherent, linear narrative; an open world only ever serves as a distraction from said linear narrative. Devs think sandbox = players? freedom = what players want, but when the sandbox is filled with nonsense side quests, mini games and bullshit collectibles, all dev?s have done is allowed the player to slow the pacing of the whole point of the game. It?s like trying to sit a room full of caffeinated 2-year-olds down for story time while actively encouraging them to run around and play; ever so often, they?ll begrudgingly drag themselves to listen, but something about eschewing the freedom to do what they want goes against their very nature.

The best game that?s every done ?sandbox? in my opinion would have to be Morrowind. The main quest is very implicit, but it is but one of a slew of questlines scattered throughout the world populated with true adventures. Yes, you could b-line it to become the prophesized ?Nereverine,? but you can also fight your way to the top of three Guilds or one of three major Houses. That nondescript wooden you almost missed because it?s hidden behind a hill and a bush? Yeah, there?s a legendary weapon at the bottom of that Daedric tomb filled with high-level badasses. The sandbox was vast, but it was all interconnected; there?s something to be found everywhere so aimless adventuring become the point, truly doing as you please and having it amount to something more that staving off the end credits for 20 hours killing hookers, collecting audio logs and flags.
 

B-Cell_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Open world is how I dream games to be. But the way open world games are now? Not a fan. It's always tedious mission structures segmented by bad cutscenes, and empty terrains or cities with lame grid plans.
Better than only playing games like this:


And this also includes games that have the same formula and does not have Military concept.
2 wrong never make one right

today open world games are boring, repteteive, travelling from point A to B, boring side quest etc

Best type of games are semi open world games or linear games with open ended level design like Deus Ex.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

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Dirty Hipsters said:
Rangaman said:
You didn't buy Assassin's Creed 2 for the open world, you bought it to bring out yours hatred of people with un-stabbed necks.
I bought Assassin's Creed 2 for the open world actually.

Running around Italian cities is amazing and there's no cooler feeling than going to Florence or Venice on vacation and then finding your exact hotel room in the game because the historical town centers of those cities haven't changed in hundreds of years.

There's nothing wrong with open world games, it's not like you have to play all of them.
So did I. And I continue to do so.
Sandbox games are not a "plague" ...they are a design choice. Chosen to allow players a sense of more freedom. Sometimes it is done well, sometimes not. But expecting them to end is childish, even by my animalistic standards.
They will continue to be made because the market is there and many people still enjoy them, including my peasant self. There is nothing you can do to change that unless you get into game development yourself and show them how to do games better.

Meanwhile...hehehehahahahamwahahaha!!







Nobody can stop the laughing owls... Nobody!!! Teeheeetowoohoo!
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Ezekiel said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Open world is how I dream games to be. But the way open world games are now? Not a fan. It's always tedious mission structures segmented by bad cutscenes, and empty terrains or cities with lame grid plans.
Better than only playing games like this:


And this also includes games that have the same formula and does not have Military concept.
I tried playing the Battlefield 4 campaign a few weeks ago and was pretty annoyed with how linear, scripted and restrictive it was. I don't know how I played so many of those shitty military shooters in the past.

I agree with Xprimentyl up there. It doesn't make sense to tell those linear stories with all the cutscenes and talking in an open world game that provides so much freedom. I want more minimalist, visual stories, like Limbo and Inside. Also, I want objectives that aren't so linear. Give me more freedom in how to surmount those objectives and give me options for where to go if I'm not feeling like exploring a particular area yet. Open world games are so unimaginative and tedious.
Don't mention games like Limbo and thier minimalistic pretentiousness to me please :p

Open World games are not unimaginative I mean what the fuck games have you been playing that made you feel this way?

Do I have to show you Morrowind? And Ultima 7?

Oh and the STALKER games especially with the Lost Alpha version.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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B-Cell said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Open world is how I dream games to be. But the way open world games are now? Not a fan. It's always tedious mission structures segmented by bad cutscenes, and empty terrains or cities with lame grid plans.
Better than only playing games like this:


And this also includes games that have the same formula and does not have Military concept.
2 wrong never make one right

today open world games are boring, repteteive, travelling from point A to B, boring side quest etc

Best type of games are semi open world games or linear games with open ended level design like Deus Ex.
I rather play a repetitive open world game for the immersion value than have a semi open world where everthing is instanced.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Ezekiel said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Open world is how I dream games to be. But the way open world games are now? Not a fan. It's always tedious mission structures segmented by bad cutscenes, and empty terrains or cities with lame grid plans.
Better than only playing games like this:


And this also includes games that have the same formula and does not have Military concept.
I tried playing the Battlefield 4 campaign a few weeks ago and was pretty annoyed with how linear, scripted and restrictive it was. I don't know how I played so many of those shitty military shooters in the past.

I agree with Xprimentyl up there. It doesn't make sense to tell those linear stories with all the cutscenes and talking in an open world game that provides so much freedom. I want more minimalist, visual stories, like Limbo and Inside. Also, I want objectives that aren't so linear. Give me more freedom in how to surmount those objectives and give me options for where to go if I'm not feeling like exploring a particular area yet. Open world games are so unimaginative and tedious.
Don't mention games like Limbo and thier minimalistic pretentiousness to me please :p

Open World games are not unimaginative I mean what the fuck games have you been playing that made you feel this way?

Do I have to show you Morrowind? And Ultima 7?

Oh and the STALKER games especially with the Lost Alpha version.
I didn't say all open world games. Majora's Mask is one of my favorite games ever.

I don't like Bethesda. They're probably to blame for a lot of the problems with open world games.
Morrowind is was the last Bethesda game that did not suffer too much from Todd Howard's touch :p

But I also recommend trying out the STALKER games.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Ezekiel said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Ezekiel said:
Open world is how I dream games to be. But the way open world games are now? Not a fan. It's always tedious mission structures segmented by bad cutscenes, and empty terrains or cities with lame grid plans.
Better than only playing games like this:


And this also includes games that have the same formula and does not have Military concept.
I tried playing the Battlefield 4 campaign a few weeks ago and was pretty annoyed with how linear, scripted and restrictive it was. I don't know how I played so many of those shitty military shooters in the past.

I agree with Xprimentyl up there. It doesn't make sense to tell those linear stories with all the cutscenes and talking in an open world game that provides so much freedom. I want more minimalist, visual stories, like Limbo and Inside. Also, I want objectives that aren't so linear. Give me more freedom in how to surmount those objectives and give me options for where to go if I'm not feeling like exploring a particular area yet. Open world games are so unimaginative and tedious.
Don't mention games like Limbo and thier minimalistic pretentiousness to me please :p

Open World games are not unimaginative I mean what the fuck games have you been playing that made you feel this way?

Do I have to show you Morrowind? And Ultima 7?

Oh and the STALKER games especially with the Lost Alpha version.
I didn't say all open world games. Majora's Mask is one of my favorite games ever.

I don't like Bethesda. They're probably to blame for a lot of the problems with open world games.
Morrowind is was the last Bethesda game that did not suffer too much from Todd Howard's touch :p

But I also recommend trying out the STALKER games.
This smart guy named TucoBenedicto told me when I said that westerners don't make level designs like Dark Souls that they did until the likes of Bethesda started the open world craze and made everything about quests in huge empty lands. I don't know old PC games well, but I do see some of Elder Scrolls in a lot of other games now. I wouldn't like Morrowind. Everything about Skyrim was mediocre. The combat, controls, voice acting, animations, art, inventory, copy and paste quests and caves, everything. There's no way the old games are free of all that.
I think your mistaking Skyrim with Dragon Age 2.

Anyway I hate Skyrim because it felt so dumbed down compared to past games like Morrowind.

Also In Morrowind you can kill NPC that gives Quests. Even the main quest ones and they stay dead yes in Morrowind you can litarally break the game by going as far as killing every single NPC.