Zontar said:
In the end he wasn't, but DICE made the mistake of making it look that way for some time.
Um...
Squilookle said:
No, Zontar.
DICE didn't make the mistake of forming that connection, you did. And you're probably the only person on the whole planet who did so.
Yeah, what the flying fighter guy said.
Having gay/women/rainbow haired characters does not make the writers only interested in pushing politics and having no regard for quality (a critical component of being Woke)
Congratulations, you've finally given a definition of "Woke." One that is nebulous belong belief because there's little way of quantifying it.
Also, the accusation was levelled at those companies for the following reasons:
-Overwatch: "Tracergate" (bending down to SJWs), Pharah's Thunderbird dress (and subsequent creation of Sam), Tracer being gay (pushing the "gay agenda"), and the whole "Blizzard is pandering to minorities because the characters come from all over the world")
-Last of Us 2: Ellie is gay, Naughty Dog is "pushing the gay agenda."
-Horizon Zero Dawn: "Aloy is a female protagonist that outshines her male mentor. The Nora are matriarchial and give worship to a monotheistic god that's female. Guerilla is pushing a feminist agenda."
-Uncharted 4: "Naughty Dog made Nate's child female, and had Nadine beat Nate in a fight. Females aren't stronger than men. They're giving into feminists."
-Uncharted: Lost Legacy: Chloe and Nadine are the protagonists. They've replaced my series with girls. They're pandering to SJWs and feminists."
The whole "pandering to politics" argument is applied loosely and rarely stands up to scrutiny.
Right.
Right.
Right.
(I refuse to put more effort into my posts than you, if that's the best you can come up with.)
Having female leads isn't controversial, making a shitty reboot no one wanted of a beloved franchise and having the marketing being "it's a remake, but this version has women instead", that is, rightfully, controversial.
-People decided the reboot was shitty as soon as the trailer launched.
-The marketing never sold it as "it has women in it."
You're really asking how things are run is connected with how things are run?
Nice try to deflect the question.
Ever heard of the concept of separating art from the artist? Whatever Amy Pascal has or hasn't done, that doesn't automatically translate into the finished work.
Orson Scott Card has anti-LGBT views. His Enderverse novels are free of them. I can enjoy the art while disagreeing with the artist (similar to Heinlein and Starship Troopers for instance).
Yes, believe it or not I can enjoy things that have viewpoints I disagree with. Who knew?
Also you have a very odd definition of functional (dead men walking must be full of life in your eyes), for the 2017 fiscal year the entire Sony conglomerate had a net loss of 700 million dollars, 1.4 billion of which came from the losses of their movie and television division. Expect Comcast or someone else to buy it off of them within the next few years.
"Get woke go broke."
I'm well aware of Sony's financial situation. However, not only are they not broke, but you've named one movie that was supposedly "woke" (Ghostbusters).
Were the Spider-Man films? Hotel Transylvania? The Emoji Movie? Like, anything else Sony's produced recently?
I didn't say Kotaku didn't write an article, I said they didn't debunk anything.
So basically everyone they interviewed was lying?
Look up who left the company's management and who entered its writing staff during 2009-2011, you'll see a lot of names that left where ones people attributed BioWare's success to and a lot of those that entered are ones its downfall has been attributed to.
First of all, that's not how burden of proof works. The person making the claim is the one required to provide evidence.
Progressive writers, progressive management, progressive lead developers, not a liberal, conservative or libertarian in sight. So who could be behind this I wonder?
-Again, burden of proof is on you.
-Believe it or not, not many people are inclined to spend the time looking up writers' politics (and given how many people are involved in AAA design, that would be next to impossible - it's far easier to gauge the politics of an author or director rather than VG writing staff)
-Ah, so if they DID have liberals, conservatives, or liberatarians, it would be all right in the world. So, it's not the politics you object to, it's just that BioWare is supposedly pushing politics that you don't agree with (but I'm sure the 'politics' of CoD developers are all fine then)
Also, I asked ages ago what politics BioWare actually pushed in their games, you never answered.
I'll assume you didn't see Solo since you wouldn't be asking what's Woke about it if you had,
I have. And?
The only thing approaching "woke" is L3, and her droid rights (founded on legitimate grievances) are played for laughs. If anything, it's anti-woke, because no-one takes L3 seriously, and the film doesn't expect us to.
but you also brought up a great point, Last Jedi, which really was the bulk of it really, was also Woke,
How?
and made the whole IP go Broke because of it.
Star Wars isn't broke, and Solo's downfall can be attributed to things beside Last Jedi's "wokeness" (which isn't even present)
It wasn't because of close proximity to Last Jedi, Infinity Wars and Deadpool, people are, especially during the summer, willing to go out each week to see a different movie if it interests them.
Not in my experience - movies are expensive as hell over here. A single family outing to the films can cost up to $100.
It also wasn't the nightmare of production, Force Awakens and Last Jedi are actually the only Star Wars movies to date that didn't have one, the only thing exceptional about it was how much it ended up costing Disney financially to produce the movie.
So, 50/50, and the ones that didn't have the nightmare production grossed far more.
...you're kinda shooting down your own point, you realize that, right?
I don't think you have a proper grasp of what people mean when we call something Woke,
It took you ages to produce one, and has been applied to all sorts of media indiscriminately. Also, if we do define woke as "pushing politics over quality," again, that's so nebulous that even categorizing something as "woke" is redundant because it can apply to just about anything, as long as there's any kind of thematic complexity to it (and not even that - Ghostbusters 2016 was good, but its themes were hardly complex)
exploring complex themes is rare for such works,
-Star Trek I: Questions of faith, what it means to be human
-Star Trek II: Themes of death, generational divide, revenge
-Star Trek III: Not much
-Star Trek IV: Again
-Star Trek V: Themes of (blind) faith and religious fanaticism
-Star Trek VI: Heavy reference/allusion to the end of the Cold War, of the need to move on and embrace the future rather than be chained by the past
-Star Trek VII: Themes of time, reality vs. desire
-Star Trek VIII: Revenge, pragmatism vs. aspiration
-Star Trek IX: Haven't seen
-Star Trek X: Nature vs. nurture
-Star Trek XI: No theme
-Star Trek XII: Allusions to the morality/legality of drone warfare, questions of betterment vs. pragmatism, etc.
-Star Trek XIII: No major theme
None of these are particuarly deep themes, but the majority of Star Trek films have had themes of some kind, and a common complaint of the Kelvinverse is that action has come before themes/ideas.
No one was calling for the Abrams movies to become more Woke,
That's like saying "no-one was calling for the Abrams movies to be bad."
"Woke," again, can be applied to anything at this point, because your definition of it lacks the means of being quantified. Basically:
-I don't like X
-X has something in it I don't like
-X is therefore "woke."
and hell when we got Trek that was Woke on Television
How was Discovery "woke?"
it was so poorly received that Netflix cut how much they'd pay for the next season by a full half, and the last episode had a rushed ending made to try and desperately hook fans back for the second season on the promise that at least that one would be actually watchable.
Sure, I'll take your word for it (this time), but again, how is Discovery "woke?" If anything, it kind of underexplores its themes.
Also, was there really burnout from 3 movies in 8 years?
Already said that Beyond is hard to quantify.
Star Wars had 3rd in 3 years before it started seeing diminished returns, while the MCU is at 21 in 10 years and the only financial flops it has had where television spinoffs (Agent Carter and Inhumans).
The MCU isn't comparable to Star Wars in a key aspect, and that's that the MCU has far more of a variety in its (film) output. There's far more difference between Ant-Man and the Wasp and Black Panther vs. one Star Wars film and another.
Reddit is cancer and would be hyped by cancer, they sure didn't come out in force for STD's run given All Access ended 2017 a full 6 million subscribers short of what CBS hoped it would have.
You didn't answer my question.
-You don't understand what "Woke" means
"Pushing politics before quality."
What I don't think you understand is that that's a charge that can be levied at anything, because not only is quality in the eye of the beholder, but "politics" in this context can translate to anything from themes to the presence of anything/anyone.
For instance, take Starship Troopers (book or film, either's fine). Let's say I didn't like it. I can therefore say it's woke, accusing it of pushing politics before quality. Only difference between the two is that the politics being pushed are different between the novel and the film.
I can therefore extend that argument to any work in existence that deals with any kind of theme (or in the case of Ghostbusters, barely any theme). Saying "it's woke" isn't an argument. It's a means of avoiding argument, because instead of articulating why you dislike the work, you simply levy the charge of "woke." Which, as we've seen, can be levied at anything.
...seriously, what was political about Ghostbusters 2016? FFS, the original Ghostbusters is more political then, and only if you squint at it ("small business being stamped on by big government, bad stuff happens").
You've already indicated that you spend time checking the politics of a company's writing staff, you sure you're not looking for stuff that isn't there?
(On a side note, hands up Escapist, does anyone?)
-You don't understand why people had a problem with Ghostbusters (and why it subsequently flopped to the toon of 100 million dollars)
No, I really don't.
If people said "I saw the film and didn't like it" sure, I mean, I liked it, but not everyone is going to dislike or like the same thing. What I don't get is the backlash the film received beforehand.
-You don't understand why people have a problem with NuWars (and why Solo subsequently flopped to the toon of 80 million dollars)
I've given the reasons why Solo flopped. And actually, I do understand some of the problems with NuWars (Force Awakens is a retread of New Hope, Rogue One only gets it together in the third act, Last Jedi is a mix of high highs and low lows, Solo is simply "fun"), but some of the reasons being cited (especially Last Jedi) make so sense to me.
-You don't understand why people have a problem with STD (and why Netflix gave serious consideration to suing CBS over it)
Nice tactic, you've said "you don't understand why people have a problem with X" rather than "you don't understand why X is woke."
Also, Discovery. I can understand why some people have a problem with it (it's certainly imperfect). But again, I don't see any evidence of it being "woke" (which again, as you've demonstrated, can be levied at anything in any way).
Don't feel bad. That's par for the course with lots of people.
(Also, source needed on the lawsuit thing.)
-You don't understand why people have a problem with the Battlefield 5 trailer (and why the series popularity has collapsed because of it)
And once again you've employed the dishonest tactic of shifting goalposts. This thread was originally about Battlefield V, not the trailer. The problems with the trailer (short version: it's a mess) aren't 1:1 applicable to the issue now (females).
-You don't care to find out the answer to any of these things
That's not how the world works Zontar.
If I say "X is bad," and you ask me why, and I say "go find out the answer," then, what?
If you want to state that something is "woke," it's your burden of proof to cite examples of it being so. It's not my job to look at a piece of work, and adjust my perspective, to suit someone else's.
Let's use Star Trek Discovery as an example. If you said "Discovery is flawed because its first episodes are rushed, Burnham is unlikable (but gets better), the spore drive feels out of place, the colour scheme is iffy, it doesn't explore its themes as well as it could, and it doesn't FEEL like Star Trek," then I'd say "I agree with some of that, disagree with some of that, but at least understand where you're coming from."
If you say "Star Trek Discovery is woke" or "Star Trek Discovery puts politics before quality," then it's your burden to provide examples to back up your claim.
And most importantly
-You don't let any of these facts get in the way of trying to frame the bulk of fans of these IPs as things they are not for reasons I can only assume are ideological given this site's rules.
I'm not the one framing anyone. To quote your own post:
does happen you end up with The Last Jedi levels of quality (that is to say none, but those who are entertained by flashy effects and/or exploring ideas with the depth of a 7th grader's D- English essay).
So anyone who likes Last Jedi only does so because of the effects.
You're the one projecting. Not me.
You're the one accusing things of being "woke." Not me.
You're the one making claims and expecting the audience to look up the proof. Not me.
You're the one who brought ideology into this, demanding that writing staff meet your preferred political alignment. Not me.
I'm done with this thread.
Good. And take some time for self-reflection while you're at it.
Dansen said:
If that is the case then the whole controversy is literally because a generic looking woman is on the cover instead of a man. Those uppity waminz need to know their place or they might start demanding rights! Its fucking pathetic.
Fun fact, she's actually one of the characters from the war stories mode.
Gethsemani said:
So yeah, pathetic is a good description. Or desperate.
Why not both?
(I'd put that taco gif, but I'm too tired right now.)