Androgynous Males in REAL LIFE

Shade Jackrabbit

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Disclaimer: The following is merely the opinion of a lone Canadian in his late teens. I do not pretend to know the thoughts of all people like me, or what they went through, or society in a whole. This is my interpretation of what I have experience. My apologies if anyone is offended.

Uhg... okay, this is gonna be a tough one to write. Okay, so with all the frequent talk of sexism and all that, which seems to be the new escapist meme of 2009 (January at least), I thought I'd bring to light sexism against a minority who I am a part of. Androgynous males.

First things first, let's get some definitions out of the way, so there's no ambiguity about terms. Wikipedia has the following to say:
Wikipedia entry on Androgyny said:
...An androgyne in terms of gender identity, is a person who does not fit cleanly into the typical masculine and feminine gender roles of their society. They may also use the term ambigender to describe themselves. Many androgynes identify as being mentally "between" woman and man, or as entirely genderless...

...Androgyne was once used as a synonym for hermaphrodite, a term since replaced by the word intersex...
I would like to point out though that I am indeed talking about both the gender identity roll and the more physical state of Androgyny. And now that we've got definitions out of the way, it's time to come down to brass tax.

As an androgynous male, I would like to educate the members of this forum on some of the problems faced by, well if not all of us, at least me. Now indeed I cannot speak for greater western society, and in fact I cannot speak for much outside of the odd social climate in highschool. But I want to get something into all your heads from the outset:

If you can think back to that time when you never quite fit in with anyone, when there was always something somewhat off, or if you are in that time right now, imagine that being every moment of your life. A nagging feeling in the back of your brain that you are not the same as everyone else. Maybe you've noticed your hips curve a bit more than most guys. Perhaps you really like stuffed animals. Your hair may be a bit longer. You may enjoy the prospect of braiding it. You may even have a bit more meat on your chest. You may be a bit more lithe, and may be not nearly as strong as the others. No matter what you think, or what you're doing, all it takes is a slight glance down at yourself and you'll remember.

Now remember that I only know society inside the school system, and the Canadian one at that. It's the unfortunate part of being this age. And I know I'm focussing more on the physical side of androgyny, but don't worry, I'll get to the mental side soon.

The thing I'd like to say is that in society as I know, you will receive HELL for being built this way. The second anybody knows about this, they've got fodder for you. So what do you do about it? How do you hide this? Well, you quite literally have to hide it. Baggy clothes are great for physical differences, and you can always spout macho phrases to reaffirm your "masculinity". Yet with these physical differences, you might never be able to go swimming. In the summer, you may have to spend much of your time sweating underneath your vague layers. And the prospect of any real romance may be hindered by a sense of self-disgust brought on by your peers.

Besides, how can you avoid the words now engrained in your mind? "Gay fag." Whether or not you're gay has nothing to do with it. The words don't mean that you're gay. What they mean is simple: "Your physical or mental features are worthless and less superior to me, and I will ridicule you for it."

But this is a gaming forum, so why don't I get to gaming? Yes, let's talk a bit about this harmless piece of media, shall we?

So how about them gaming heroes, eh? Good ol' Snake, and how about those wonderfully muscled specimens in Gears of War? Oh indeed, I suppose the latter is a bad image, what with the steroid abuse and all. But Snake? Snake is cool. Snake is badass. Snake is a REAL man. Snake has VALUE as a HUMAN BEING because of how MANLY he is. Oh, Tidus? Why, that "whiny douche" can go cry, what with his "parent issues" and his "feelings". Yuk!

You know, I know women complain (for valid reasons) about negative images in games, but the guys seem to have perfectly fine images. Maybe a bit unrealistic, yeah, but who wouldn't want to be ripped like Snake?

You know who wouldn't? I wouldn't. This is where I'm getting more into the psychological side of things. My main problem is that, you know that thing I was talking about with always knowing you will be different? Well video games reinforce that. All the protagonists are strong, manly men of high calibur, something a real man would want to be. But what does an androgynous man want to be? I can't say much about the psychological drives in other guys, or other androgynous guys, but I know that I sorta like being this way. I mean, sure, I may have a curvier figure, and longer hair, but I think it suits me.

The problem though is that these games become a remainder that nobody else wants me to be this way. That society is looking down upon me for my odd gender. And it doesn't help when a character who (in my interpretation at least) is struggling against his androgynous nature is criticized for being a "whiny douche" or a "gay fag" every time I turn around. The problem is that there IS no good role model. There ARE no likable androgynous characters. (Except in the realms of anime it would seem. Wo-hoo Japan!)

And the sexism. Let's get into the sexism. Ladies, I'm gonna be looking your way as well. Let me go through one of the most common phrases heard by me from you ladies:

"Be a man."

Well excuse me, I am a man. No, I am not as strong as Ted over there, and I may be more emotionally susceptable than Fred, but that doesn't mean I'm doing something wrong. You know who IS doing something wrong? You, and a lot of other people. Many assume that just because I'm biologically a guy that I am instantly interested in sports, that I work out, that I'm averagely strong, and that I am emotionally detached. This is sexism. Valuing me lower because I am not living up to a definition of a "man".

And the thing is, this type of sexism exists in both genders towards people who don't fit the mold of a "man". The media in general, especially games, seems to get ill at the thought of such "fag imagery". So it doesn't matter who I go to, what I do, what I watch, what I play, I will be constantly assaulted with reminders of my worthlessness.

And YOU. Yes YOU internet and Escapist Forums. You are terrible about this too. So many blanket statements about "guys", you're missing a minority. Androgynous males.

And hey, we're not all "whiny douches". Some of us are highly intelligent. Some of us are highly romantic. But most of all, we are HUMAN. You may not like it, others may not like it, but it is the truth. I merely hope that in the future we can see some more interesting characters in the media. How about some lithe guy forced to be an assassin? Lots of character development available there. And hey, why not add a bit more meat to the chest of a few guys, slim down their arms, and maybe make them write poetry or something?

We have the ability people. All we need is the will. And just remember, that when you're refusing to allow a character to be a bit less masculine, you're saying "screw you" to people who would rather be a little more androgynous.

Word count: 1403. Pages: 3
 

ellimist337

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I'm having a hard time coming up with anything to say. I guess I'm sympathetic that you've been overlooked and discounted, and that when you have been noticed the attention was so negative. You have a right to be who you are, no matter what, and it's sad that people can't look past some certain qualities.

As far as blanket statements go, I guess I hope you take solace in the fact that there are exceptions to every rule, and that generalizations are only made to group the majority. Those in minorities are often left out of those statements/generalizations. If you feel they don't represent you, then perhaps share your unique point of view. Not everybody can be lumped together, so remind people of that.
 

Labyrinth

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Oct 14, 2007
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A good, thought provoking article, though I feel the need to nitpick for a second.

There's a touch of irony in your blanket statements about Escapists. Yes, we have some who have such opinions, but many of us are also intelligent, welcoming, thoughtful, romantic individuals who are entirely prepared to let you be you, whatever that may mean.

I've written articles [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.84176.1193081] in the past on this issue. I'd rather there be more realistic characters in the media, but it would seem I'd need to do it myself to find them.

On an additional note. I know how you feel in some ways. A lot of the time I dress in a very gender-neutral manner. I've been mistaken for male in the past when I had my hair tied back, cargos, boots and a very loose shirt on. It's almost liberating to know that people can make that kind of mistake, but also bitterly amusing when they then decide to slag me off as some 'lesbo tomboy'. Sure, I dress in a manner to accentuate the fact that I am female at times. I have hips and the like, so I probably get away with it more easily than you. It's a pity that people are such idiots towards those with different identities.
 

TheBluesader

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What your saying has merit, but not only to the specific end you've chosen to represent. I think games, comic books, and media in general has a real problem accurately representing real people. This didn't bother me when I was younger, but the older I get, the more bored I get with portrayals of women as oversexed mannequins and guys as spandex-clad muscle-bound steroid freaks with severe intimacy problems.

That's why I like looking back at 40s and 50s comic books. Superman and Batman were not rippling, self-obsessed jerks. They were buffer guys in goofy costumes using acrobatics and lite superpowers to keep street toughs from mistreating women and robbing banks. It was simple, it was fun, and it was often relatable - we could almost see ourselves in these people.

But now? Who sympathizes with anyone in Gears of War? Or in DC's or Marvel's universes? What was once a funny spin on reality has become a media archetype, which itself has become some kind of semi-divine ideal.

Come on, media. If I want Jesus, I'll go to church. Give me someone who is very much like me and people I know but weirder, and that's entertaining. Otherwise, it looks like we as a culture think who we really are is flaccid and worthless. And who the hell wants constant doses of that?
 

Joeshie

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TheBluesader said:
What your saying has merit, but not only to the specific end you've chosen to represent. I think games, comic books, and media in general has a real problem accurately representing real people.
The reason they have a problem accurately representing real people is because most of the time, they don't want to represent real people. You might as well complain about how most plots never accurately represent the lives of most people either.
 

LewsTherin

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THANK YOU for correctly breaking this up into lesseye-immolating pieces.

Now to the topic. Ill say what I always say: don't waste your time on idiots, bigots, fools, or maggot-ridden piles of viscera. Laugh and move on, it'll confuse the hell out of them.
 

kdragon1010

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Simple sad fact of life...if you want to survive with your sanity intact BECOME emotionally detatched if you're a guy.
 

TheBluesader

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Joeshie said:
The reason they have a problem accurately representing real people is because most of the time, they don't want to represent real people. You might as well complain about how most plots never accurately represent the lives of most people either.
If you want. Should I do it here, or in private mail chat?

:B
 

Erana

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But... I'm the one who keeps saying, "Chicks dig sensetive guys."
I know that's yet another blanket term, but I don't tell guys to, "Be a man."
 

Joeshie

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TheBluesader said:
Joeshie said:
The reason they have a problem accurately representing real people is because most of the time, they don't want to represent real people. You might as well complain about how most plots never accurately represent the lives of most people either.
If you want. Should I do it here, or in private mail chat?

:B
You can do it either way, I honestly don't care.
 

kdragon1010

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TheBluesader said:
Joeshie said:
The reason they have a problem accurately representing real people is because most of the time, they don't want to represent real people. You might as well complain about how most plots never accurately represent the lives of most people either.
If you want. Should I do it here, or in private mail chat?

:B
If you want realism...don't play videogames they're supposed to be unreal and allow you to do things that aren't possible. If the characters in those impossible stories don't resemble real people...to me they shouldn't.
 

Neo Kojiro

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I skimmed through the first post and passed over the next several because i have no intention to read serious statements and replies. Brevity is good, and i shall try to be as brief as i can.

You have, as i see it, three options: listen to the general opinion and man up, ignore the populous and be yourself, or suicide. Oh, sure, you could emo it up and cry nightly about how no one loves or accepts you, but that won't solve anything.

Regardless of whichever option you choose, just deal with it and stop sobbing on the internet.

Also, now that i think about it, if you really want womanly men in your VIDYA, just turn to JRPGs. You can't throw a rock without hitting two womanly guys.
 

Mariena

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I love games that allow me to create a female that hasn't always got D cups, a massive H/W ratio and long, golden, silky hair.

I hated Age of Conan for more than just that though, don't worry. Saint's Row 2 is amazing. It actually allows me to create very skinny characters and really, really fat characters. Every game should have customization like that. Oblivion and The Sims are nothing compared to Saint's Row 2 character customization.

... Though I made a cute character (not with massive hips and D cups), it's a shame the attitude of the character has already been laid out by the game itself. I was thinking of being an innocent cute girl type thingy, but I turned out to be the biggest, meanest arrogant asshole in the world. Well, I guess that's what it takes to be a violent gang leader :p
 

Shade Jackrabbit

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Labyrinth said:
A good, thought provoking article, though I feel the need to nitpick for a second.

There's a touch of irony in your blanket statements about Escapists. Yes, we have some who have such opinions, but many of us are also intelligent, welcoming, thoughtful, romantic individuals who are entirely prepared to let you be you, whatever that may mean.

I've written articles [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.84176.1193081] in the past on this issue. I'd rather there be more realistic characters in the media, but it would seem I'd need to do it myself to find them...
Oh indeed, there are many smart people here on the escapist forums. Trust me, I wouldn't have spent my time on this if I hadn't thought it was a worthwhile cause. So just as a bit of a greater apology if anyone felt offended by that statement: Thanks people for being smart and stuff.

Oh yes, and I noticed [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.84176?page=3#1218871] your article. =D

Erana said:
But... I'm the one who keeps saying, "Chicks dig sensetive guys."
I know that's yet another blanket term, but I don't tell guys to, "Be a man."
Can you move up to Canada? It seems we need more people like you.
 

Erana

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Shade Jackrabbit said:
Labyrinth said:
A good, thought provoking article, though I feel the need to nitpick for a second.

There's a touch of irony in your blanket statements about Escapists. Yes, we have some who have such opinions, but many of us are also intelligent, welcoming, thoughtful, romantic individuals who are entirely prepared to let you be you, whatever that may mean.

I've written articles [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.84176.1193081] in the past on this issue. I'd rather there be more realistic characters in the media, but it would seem I'd need to do it myself to find them...
Oh indeed, there are many smart people here on the escapist forums. Trust me, I wouldn't have spent my time on this if I hadn't thought it was a worthwhile cause. So just as a bit of a greater apology if anyone felt offended by that statement: Thanks people for being smart and stuff.

Oh yes, and I noticed [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.84176?page=3#1218871] your article. =D

Erana said:
But... I'm the one who keeps saying, "Chicks dig sensetive guys."
I know that's yet another blanket term, but I don't tell guys to, "Be a man."
Can you move up to Canada? It seems we need more people like you.
Sorry, I can't give up the Southern delicacies. I've yet to see a Northerner make sweet tea properly. (no offense, of course.)
 

Shade Jackrabbit

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Erana said:
Shade Jackrabbit said:
Sorry, I can't give up the Southern delicacies. I've yet to see a Northerner make sweet tea properly. (no offense, of course.)
Yeah I know, first time I went to the states I was like "Whoa, sweet tea that's ACTUALLY tea." It's so weird yet similarly good.

Neo Kojiro said:
I skimmed through the first post and passed over the next several because i have no intention to read serious statements and replies. Brevity is good, and i shall try to be as brief as i can.

You have, as i see it, three options: listen to the general opinion and man up, ignore the populous and be yourself, or suicide. Oh, sure, you could emo it up and cry nightly about how no one loves or accepts you, but that won't solve anything.

Regardless of whichever option you choose, just deal with it and stop sobbing on the internet.

Also, now that i think about it, if you really want womanly men in your VIDYA, just turn to JRPGs. You can't throw a rock without hitting two womanly guys.
Uhmm... this is actually not sobbing on the internet. If i was sobbing it would be even more convoluted. This is more like getting fed up, which is often confused for sobbing in text. Tone doesn't come out very well. =/

And my problem is that I don't generally like JRPGs. I mean, yeah I love the stories but I absolutely hate a lot of the gameplay. I'd really like to play some western games which allowed more realistic characters.

MaxTheReaper said:
...I guess the best thing I can say is, if someone is going to juge you because you happen to be a tad feminine looking, or whatever equally inane physical "flaw" they find in you, they're obviously not, and I promised myself I would never sound this much like my mum, "someone who matters."
So...yeah, I guess. High school is rough.
Yeah, it's (in a sad way) funny because it's really true, but saying it never seems to help anyone. Thanks for the effort though! =D
 

xitel

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Aug 13, 2008
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I've never been a stereotypical guy, although I wasn't exactly androgynous. But I managed to find a group of friends that didn't care, and I made myself known to people as a person, not a gender. If people didn't like me when they saw me, I either showed them the kind of person I am personality-wise and let them decide for themselves whether they want to like me, or I ignored them. I can't change how they think so I just find people that think differently and spend my time with them. I can understand feeling left out, but there are people out there that will accept you no matter what. You just have to learn to ignore the people that don't.
 

Chiasm

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I have known some very feminine guys and was always glad I knew them as a good friend as when I needed someone to talk to I knew they would listen and not just have other thoughts on their minds which I found is wonderful. As well like others have said ignore the idiots and move on in your life.

However two points.

1.You gotta be tougher at least for your sake, I mean it's nothing to new of a idea but not like "be a man" but be able to have thick skin. Being Mute and dealing with both Deaf people and Hearies I have to say you just have to understand everyone is a bigot in their own ways and just learn to move on with your life,If not you'll become depressed I suggest taking up smoking if you need to just get away or meet people who are more open minded.

2.With some women as far as personality goes your not going to win them all over, With me I had friends who were Androgynous males however they were just that friends. Sometimes no matter what you do your personality just won't click with all girls on a romantic level. Doesn't mean we hate you just means we want more of the dominating personalities romantically is all.

P.S Get involved in the GLBT groups, They sound like they would be a good group for you and they are really nice people. Used to go to a few meetings in highschool with friends.
 

Neo Kojiro

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I actually kinda like sweet tea, but i have no idea how to make it, steeping and sugar aside.

Whining, crying, complaining, griefing. You're throwing your problems on the internet when the real problem is with your own perspectives and the expections reality has of you. Either toughen up or ignore it. Or, y'know, suicide; that's always an option, and usually the best one.

Watch anime, maybe? Not sure what else to suggest, on that one. Maybe find some action-based RPGs, like Kingdom Hearts and maybe Radiata Stories or Star Ocean 2.