Anime and Internal Logic

[Mangod]

Well, in the defense of "manga" (generlization, hooo...), western storytelling (...ooo!) isn't exactly internally consistent either. Just take Star Trek and its treatment of the Prime Directive. Here's a breakdown of the problems with it: http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/e113.asp

 

[CrystalShadow]

SNIP

Many of the historical ninja were peasants, oftentimes such people who can't afford a sword and thus improvise with what they've got. The notion of the silent killer comes from the idea that...in war time if nowhere else...peasants did not care HOW they dispatched a samurai, who is built for a stand-up fight. Peasants are not warriors. They just want the enemy dead. What lead to the black-clad figures was likely misinformation and tall tales to give others a degree of concern and to look for the wrong thing.

Actually, I've done a small amount of research on what the reality of ninjas were. They were indeed peasants most of the time, but they were also an apparent military force of some kind at one point or another.

Most of what they really did has largely been lost in history, though it seems they were basically mercenary assassins. And were known for sneaking into castles, blending in with everyone there, then opening the gates to let an army in (or kill a general, or something similar)

However, the black clothes are an interesting story in and of themselves. Supposedly it originates with Kabuki theatre.
The outfit currently associated with Ninja is in fact a common form of clothing worn by stage-hands in Kabuki theatre productions.

The black costumes tend to blend into the backgrounds, but also, because the stage-hands are responsible for altering the set dressing, and doing all manner of things that aren't technically part of the story, audience members become accustomed to ignoring them.

So how does that relate to ninja? Well, at some point it started to become a habit to depict the stealth and surprise of a ninja attack, by literally having someone dressed as a stagehand (who, of course, the audience is accustomed to ignoring) jump out and attack one of the actual cast members.

Given that the audience was used to treating the stage-hands as though they weren't actually there, to have one jump out and do something like kill one of the characters in the play really did come across as though an attack had come from nowhere.

So, the stereotypical ninja outfit, historically, is actually the clothing worn by stagehands in theatre productions, and came to be associated with ninja and stealth due to the surprise of having a stagehand suddenly turn out to actually be involved in the story.

 

[CrystalShadow]

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

maybe, but the point is more about the essence of the archetype or myth in question, vampires are meant to be parasitical in some form and have a weakness for sunlight, among other things, look up Twilight and it's critisisms for referance on that.

although the black pajama's are not the core essence to a ninja (and quite silly anyway), the stealth aspect is, taking a medieval knight and call him a ninja because, "hey, they both fought and killed people" does not make it a ninja.
I thing Naruto comes a lot closer to a fighting monk, focussed on the perfection of his fighting skills for his own noble purposes rather than a code or creed, exposing injustice rather than quelling it in the dead of night.

you know, like a ninja would.

Hmm... Well, the thing is, the very earliest version of Naruto (I'm not sure how much of it exists. Maybe not more than a handful of manga pages or a single volume at most) was about wizards.

Naruto and everyone else were wizards at some point, not Ninja. Which, when you think about it, makes a lot more sense, even taking into account all the martial arts content, it seems to make a lot more sense of much of what's going on...

 

[Something Amyss]

Why would you limit it just to animes? It's not like all other forms of media don't have internal logic inconsistencies.

Anime seems to have cornered the market share, though. I've seen more consistent logic in B movies than most anime, and that's saying something.

...And still I watch, so that either tells you something about how enjoyable it is or how bad my pattern recognition is.

>.>

Well at least we can all take comfort in the knowledge that Death Note maintains it's own lore pretty well.

*squints at avatar* Is that...Is that the Boston Greatest Hits album cover?

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

Personally, I'm generally annoyed if they do dress in black, since the idea of the black outfit is generally to blend in. That means wearing it in a lot of scenarios is just ridiculous.

Still, you might find we do care about our own cultural misrepresentation when it skews far enough off axis. For example, mention Twilight and you're going to get a lot of people berating it because, among other things "Vampires don't sparkle." I think your argument just became invalid.

And while I'm not a big Naruto watcher and my knowledge is admittedly limited, I can see the complaints here being similar to the Cullen clan.

Also, it occurs to me that one of the big problems with vampire mythology is that it is cobbled together from literally thousands of sources from literally hundreds of cultures and deals with what was never really a singular construct. If we were to continue this analogue, that would imply that ninja were also fictitious entities with no unified source material for the comparison to be at all accurate. It's hard to argue what a "real vampire" is. Less so for a ninja.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, in the defense of "manga" (generlization, hooo...), western storytelling (...ooo!) isn't exactly internally consistent either. Just take Star Trek and its treatment of the Prime Directive. Here's a breakdown of the problems with it: http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/e113.asp

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! IT HURTS!

...No, that's just the headdesking.

Seriously, interfering with an unknown plan we don't know exists because...Ponies. This argument has always bothered me.

Janeway: We don't know what the consequences could be.
Paris: They have to be better than extinction!
Janeway: Go to your room!

 

[triggrhappy94]

Most shonen sucks.

This is unfortunately true.
Though it's weird you mention Shinryaku! Ika Musume as an alternative, because it's a shōnen as well.

I consider it a shonen only in name. It's too good and has too many sexual references (along with other characteristics) for me to actually consider it a shonen.

 

[Professor Lupin Madblood]

That is pretty much the only thing that damages my suspension of disbelief at all, I can't think of any anime examples really but an example that comes to mind is Uncharted 3 around the three quarter mark and onwards.

They sneak Drake a God Mode hack and he breaks all rules regarding mortality and/or physics. He escapes a sinking ship (while getting punched in the face and shot,) falls out of a plane (while getting punched in the face and shot,) treks through a desert with zero water for ages then engages in horse to horse combat. Then gets shot. Again.

I know it's Indiana Jones logic but Indy still actually looked mortal. Drake turns into a God the moment he heaves a massive piece of ceiling off him and outruns a shitload of water.

You know what I love about that sequence? After Drake walks through the desert for three days (and, frankly, the game does a great job of convincing you he's going to die), he finds a little puddle of water, takes one sip and says "UGH I CAN'T DRINK THIS IT'S DIRTI"

Fuck you, Nathan. That water is the greatest water you've ever had, I don't care what stupid reason you have for not drinking it because it simply isn't good enough.

 

[FalloutJack]

Zip

Zoop

That is VERY interesting, you two. So, now I understand where the romantic notion of the ninja DOES come from, and why.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

I suppose I could recommend Full Metal Alchemist, if you hadn't seen already.
Which you should have.
for a long time already.

FMA keeps it's rules very simple, and then sticks with it, bringing it up many times again to have it bite characters in the ass.

If you have to pick between the first series or the brotherhood series, the first one had better pacing and atmosphere, while brotherhood has a stronger second act and supporting cast, and is more light-hearted if you're into that.

both are quite excellent though.

If you ask me, the first anime had shite pacing (a good chunk of the first half pretty much consisted of a lengthy flashback for no reason and inconsequential filler that did nothing to forward the plot, taking until about the 14th episode to get back on track) and the atmosphere consisting of Edward wangsting about ten times more than in the original story. Not to mention its mass of plotholes and inconsistencies (e.g. unlike the manga, it never explains where the fuck Al's body went). I prefer Brotherhood's relatively speedy pacing (although I disliked them missing out the Youswell arc and the "tribesman" Ed and Al had to deal with on Yock Island) to the waste of time that the Tringham brothers two-parter was (why couldn't Ed just prove that he wasn't a fake by showing his pocket watch, which is what it's for?)

But the manga beats all anyway, IMO. I guess it depends on what suits you more (I'll give Bones credit for having quite different, while still interesting, alternate interpretations of numerous characters, like Mustang's guilt over Ishval and Scar's isolation being more pronounced in the first anime). The first anime is more pessimistic in tone and the story is unpredictable, while the second anime is more optimistic and has a more fleshed-out plot.

 

[Ishal]

SNIP

An interesting take on things, Cake Doctor, but you imposed a generality on me. I don't believe that ninjas are often assassins in black. There may have been some, but those are what drive the kinds of tropes that inevitably lead to Dr. McNinja, so you know it can't be the norm.

Many of the historical ninja were peasants, oftentimes such people who can't afford a sword and thus improvise with what they've got. The notion of the silent killer comes from the idea that...in war time if nowhere else...peasants did not care HOW they dispatched a samurai, who is built for a stand-up fight. Peasants are not warriors. They just want the enemy dead. What lead to the black-clad figures was likely misinformation and tall tales to give others a degree of concern and to look for the wrong thing.

The idea that the farmer, the butcher, the common worker...would do things in a shouty manner is preposterous, because he (or she) would DIE. A little truth-in-tale from Rurouni Kenshin is that most commoners weren't even allowed to own a sword even if they could buy one. It was a higher-class thing. No sword means no easy way to deflect those keen-cutting blades, so a stand-up fight is out of the question most of the time. Killing silently isn't just better. It's required as a survival trait!

Naruto doesn't follow this. If anything, it's suppose to take after Japanese legends and the romantic notion of the ninja itself, not the historical ones. The thing about that, though, is that it doesn't fit the romanticism either. I can't really think of any sort of ninja - fictional or non-fictional - that acts like any of these people. Bruce Lee is quieter, and he outright beats the crap out of everyone! (Though, he had several cases of sneaking around and using disguises effectively in movies.)

I didn't make the comment idly. I meant it. And if someone from Japan who knows history better than I do (probably alot) would like to step forward, I'll gladly discuss it, but in the meantime I have to stick with my guns on this one.

Ah Rurouni Kenshin, perhaps one of the best anime shows ever with how it treats its culture. There is a fair bit of mysticism and usuage of strange powers in it, but it is no where near as convoluted and terrible as Naruto.

I watched Naruto when it first aired on Toonami years and years ago, the whole thing just seemed like blatant fan pandering and had the most abominable character to ever grace an anime... Sasuke... /vomits Naruto might even be worse than Bleach.

But you are correct in your assessment of Ninja being peasants. I took years of martial arts classes and learned a bit about Japanese history. Samurai were very much the knights of Japan. Being some of the only ones to have a ridiculous amount of combat skills, armor and weapons, and the wealth that came from serving a vassal lord. In fact Kenshin is such an interesting character because he is a Ronin, a Samurai without a master/vassal lord. Those Samurai were looked down upon and often considered weak or w/o honor if my memory is correct.

In fact, Kenshin as the legendary manslayer was more of a ninja than a samurai anyways. Assassinating his targets amongst the crowds and other ways. Saito wearing that medicine peddlers disguise to get close to a target, that is something a ninja would do. They would infiltrate the castle of a vassal lord as a servant and get in real close to finish the job. Facing a Samurai in open combat meant certain death not just because you would lose, but because the so called "honor" the samurai had pretty much was only reserved for other of their order. They would kill a peasant without a second thought.

Many Ninja's if they did fight a Samurai would use a pair of sais, which were actually garden tools. They could be used to catch swords and penetrate weaknesses in Samurai armor with great results. Sais are stabbing weapons, and to my knowledge Samurai katanas are mostly slicing weapons, thus their armor is designed with that in mind, no close quarters stabbing. I could be missing some info on that though, so if anyone else know more, feel free to speak up.

 

[MorganL4]

Why would you limit it just to animes? It's not like all other forms of media don't have internal logic inconsistencies.

Anime seems to have cornered the market share, though. I've seen more consistent logic in B movies than most anime, and that's saying something.

...And still I watch, so that either tells you something about how enjoyable it is or how bad my pattern recognition is.

>.>

Well at least we can all take comfort in the knowledge that Death Note maintains it's own lore pretty well.

*squints at avatar* Is that...Is that the Boston Greatest Hits album cover?

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

Personally, I'm generally annoyed if they do dress in black, since the idea of the black outfit is generally to blend in. That means wearing it in a lot of scenarios is just ridiculous.

Still, you might find we do care about our own cultural misrepresentation when it skews far enough off axis. For example, mention Twilight and you're going to get a lot of people berating it because, among other things "Vampires don't sparkle." I think your argument just became invalid.

And while I'm not a big Naruto watcher and my knowledge is admittedly limited, I can see the complaints here being similar to the Cullen clan.

Also, it occurs to me that one of the big problems with vampire mythology is that it is cobbled together from literally thousands of sources from literally hundreds of cultures and deals with what was never really a singular construct. If we were to continue this analogue, that would imply that ninja were also fictitious entities with no unified source material for the comparison to be at all accurate. It's hard to argue what a "real vampire" is. Less so for a ninja.

Let's put it this way...... When you saw that I am pretty sure you had "More than a feeling".....

 

[Gatx]

On the flip side I hated when Bleach tried really hard to stick to it's own internal logic. That part where everyone charges in to attack Aizen and Sui Feng manages to land two hits in the same spot, which should've resulted in an instakill because of her ability, but nope, Kubo brings the rule he established back in Soul Society - a person with a weaker power level can't even hope to damage someone with a fairly higher one. If it's all going to come down to a numbers game in the end, then what the hell is even the point of having abilities?!

Most shonen sucks.

This is unfortunately true.
Though it's weird you mention Shinryaku! Ika Musume as an alternative, because it's a shōnen as well.

I consider it a shonen only in name. It's too good and has too many sexual references (along with other characteristics) for me to actually consider it a shonen.

Shonen mangas are a lot more broad than you'd think - there's things other than fighting that appeals to boys after all, that's why there's always a couple romcoms and harem mangas in Shonen Jump. And also, come on, if it's too good it's not shonen because you don't like shonen?

 

[Weaver]

Most shonen sucks.

This is unfortunately true.
Though it's weird you mention Shinryaku! Ika Musume as an alternative, because it's a shōnen as well.

I consider it a shonen only in name. It's too good and has too many sexual references (along with other characteristics) for me to actually consider it a shonen.

shonen is an age demographic, not a genre or style
There are slice of life, comedy and romance anime's that are shonen (ie, targeted at youths and teens). Just like they are fighting anime's that are Seinen (targeted at the 18 - 30 demographic).

 

[FalloutJack]

Ah, Rurouni Kenshin...

I was surprised to learn how much of that story had the air of truth about it, historically speaking. Not all of it, but enough to be very interesting. In any case, I can help you there with some of your confusion. I have sais myself. Samurai armor tends to be a reinforced leather or even wood arranged in a manner by which slicing would be detered. It is somewhat reminescent of the viking buckler shield which is made of wood, but painted in a manner that allows the enemy to believe the stress-patterns are a different way, thus the sword or axe swing doesn't break the shield in two. In the same manner, the katana fails to get by the samurai's armor.

Regarding Saito for a moment, by the by. It is a matter of fact that he could fight, and that he would be given great cause to do so at times. It was largely that his order was committed to the cause of removing dangerous elements so succinctly, that they evolved a 'by any means necessary' tactic. He had a...kind of honor, the kind that is of a zealous patroitism to not a man, but to a people and a way of life. At least, I think so.

 

[BleedingPride]

In response to Naruto the pigeons are most likely for stealth communication. I mean, it's not likely that you'll fireball jutsu down every damn bird you see on the off chance that its the private letters of the Hokage. It's probably safer in that regard.

 

[The Funslinger]

You know what anime has great logical consistency? Deadman Wonderland.

snip

Based off your avatar, you get it

 

[Novan Leon]

It would be easier to list all the anime that DO stay true to their internal logic than those that don't. Unexplained plot gaps is one of my pet peeves with anime in general.

Some otherwise complex anime that does seem to maintain some semblance of logical consistency:

* Baccano!
* Durarara
* Steins;Gate
* Another
* FMA: Brotherhood
* Ghost in the Shell (all of them, for the most part)
* Code Geass (as far as I can remember)

 

[Novan Leon]

shonen is an age demographic, not a genre or style
There are slice of life, comedy and romance anime's that are shonen (ie, targeted at youths and teens). Just like they are fighting anime's that are Seinen (targeted at the 18 - 30 demographic).

Yes, but even though Shonen isn't a genre, most Shonen do typically contain their own set of stereotypes that are less prevelent in Seinen and Shoujo demographics. Hence why people tend to refer to anime that match these stereotypes as "Shonen". Of course there are always exceptions...

 

[Sniper Team 4]

I gave up on trying to figure out the tech thing in Naruto looooong ago. Like, back when Naruto was still a 'kid' and not...what is he now, 15? So a teenager. My brother and I just point it out, make a quick joke, and go back to watching it.
No, the things that get me in Naruto are all these jutsus that have special restrictions on them, or rules that can't be broken, or all sorts of stuff like that. And then, further down the line, those rules suddenly don't exist. The Edo tensin (reanimation) jutsu rules have been thrown out the window so many times now with the war going on. Still, I enjoy the series.

I'm a zillion chapters behind in Naruto and am unlikely to catch up, but didn't Kabuto explain the Edo Tensei has basically no restrictions at all?

Sort of correct. Kabuto says that the jutsu has no risks to the user. Basically, it's invincible. Now, the rules I am talking about refer to the rules about bringing someone back. You need a host body--which Kabuto has plenty of, no doubt--plus the DNA of the person you wish to summon (again, not a problem for Kabuto), and the soul of the person. However, Kabuto points out that, if the soul of the person has already made peace or, more importantly, been sealed in another sealing jutsu, that person cannot be summoned.

Uh...then how exactly are a few of these people walking around now (MAJOR spoiler so I'm not saying who these people are)? Oh, right. Because the ultimate rule to this jutsu just got countered in two sentences. But even before that, how was Orichimaru able to summon the Fourth Hokage when he attacked The Village Hidden In The Leaves? Because The Fourth sealed his soul inside Naruto along with The Nine Tails. That's how Reaper Death Seal works. You get your soul sucked out along with that of your target.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

Sort of correct. Kabuto says that the jutsu has no risks to the user. Basically, it's invincible. Now, the rules I am talking about refer to the rules about bringing someone back. You need a host body--which Kabuto has plenty of, no doubt--plus the DNA of the person you wish to summon (again, not a problem for Kabuto), and the soul of the person. However, Kabuto points out that, if the soul of the person has already made peace or, more importantly, been sealed in another sealing jutsu, that person cannot be summoned.

Uh...then how exactly are a few of these people walking around now (MAJOR spoiler so I'm not saying who these people are)? Oh, right. Because the ultimate rule to this jutsu just got countered in two sentences. But even before that, how was Orichimaru able to summon the Fourth Hokage when he attacked The Village Hidden In The Leaves? Because The Fourth sealed his soul inside Naruto along with The Nine Tails. That's how Reaper Death Seal works. You get your soul sucked out along with that of your target.

I don't know about the first, but as for the second I recall reading on the wiki the Fourth Hokage's coffin was only present in the anime, not in the manga. Do not actually know if this is true, however.