Anime and Internal Logic

[Dr. Cakey]

Naurto

PROOFREADING

Just kidding. With Naruto, it's obvious Kishimoto can't decide how much technology his world has.

SNIP

Nothing about Naruto makes any sense, especially since it doesn't have any ninjas in it. (Rather, it contains shouty people with super powers.)

Some things are just poorly-made.

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

My biggest gripe with Bleach was that Ichigo defeats Zaraki with just a shikai and then later Zaraki beats an Espada without an major power increase in between. And I know there was some sort of Aizen manipulating Ichigo from the shadows attempt at an explanation but it really didn't work to my mind. I know this kind of thing is common in that kind of anime but that was really really badly done.

Have you been keeping up with the manga? This is kind of explained in 526.

Spoiler

Ever since his first fight with Kenpachi Unohana, Zaraki has been unconsciously restrained his power, so he could enjoy fighting longer. It was only after he killed her in battle that he would be able to remove the restraint and learn the name of his zanpakto.

That was my least favorite part of all of Bleach.

Has Bleach gotten better? I stopped reading in the middle of the Fullbringer arc for being really freakin' boring. After the already boring year long fight with Aizen and then the hundred or so chapters of mostly boring fights prior to that.

I guess you would say it's gotten better...probably. My least favorite part of Bleach is several things that happened during the current arc, although it seems to be improving...or maybe getting even worse? It's all a mystery.

I gave up on trying to figure out the tech thing in Naruto looooong ago. Like, back when Naruto was still a 'kid' and not...what is he now, 15? So a teenager. My brother and I just point it out, make a quick joke, and go back to watching it.
No, the things that get me in Naruto are all these jutsus that have special restrictions on them, or rules that can't be broken, or all sorts of stuff like that. And then, further down the line, those rules suddenly don't exist. The Edo tensin (reanimation) jutsu rules have been thrown out the window so many times now with the war going on. Still, I enjoy the series.

I'm a zillion chapters behind in Naruto and am unlikely to catch up, but didn't Kabuto explain the Edo Tensei has basically no restrictions at all?

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Why would you limit it just to animes? It's not like all other forms of media don't have internal logic inconsistencies.

This. Every media has internal logical inconsistency. Particularly anything long-running. Star Trek is particularly guilty of this, having multiple layers of logical inconsistency.

I guess you could explain the Naruto thing. Never watched Sekirei though.
My anime advice: Fuck shonen, watch Squid Girl. So much better.
Most shonen sucks.

And this. Shonen anime tends to be pretty awful in my experience. Come over to the Shoujo side of the Force. We have magical girls.

 

[FalloutJack]

SNIP

An interesting take on things, Cake Doctor, but you imposed a generality on me. I don't believe that ninjas are often assassins in black. There may have been some, but those are what drive the kinds of tropes that inevitably lead to Dr. McNinja, so you know it can't be the norm.

Many of the historical ninja were peasants, oftentimes such people who can't afford a sword and thus improvise with what they've got. The notion of the silent killer comes from the idea that...in war time if nowhere else...peasants did not care HOW they dispatched a samurai, who is built for a stand-up fight. Peasants are not warriors. They just want the enemy dead. What lead to the black-clad figures was likely misinformation and tall tales to give others a degree of concern and to look for the wrong thing.

The idea that the farmer, the butcher, the common worker...would do things in a shouty manner is preposterous, because he (or she) would DIE. A little truth-in-tale from Rurouni Kenshin is that most commoners weren't even allowed to own a sword even if they could buy one. It was a higher-class thing. No sword means no easy way to deflect those keen-cutting blades, so a stand-up fight is out of the question most of the time. Killing silently isn't just better. It's required as a survival trait!

Naruto doesn't follow this. If anything, it's suppose to take after Japanese legends and the romantic notion of the ninja itself, not the historical ones. The thing about that, though, is that it doesn't fit the romanticism either. I can't really think of any sort of ninja - fictional or non-fictional - that acts like any of these people. Bruce Lee is quieter, and he outright beats the crap out of everyone! (Though, he had several cases of sneaking around and using disguises effectively in movies.)

I didn't make the comment idly. I meant it. And if someone from Japan who knows history better than I do (probably alot) would like to step forward, I'll gladly discuss it, but in the meantime I have to stick with my guns on this one.

 

[RevRaptor]

SNIP

An interesting take on things, Cake Doctor, but you imposed a generality on me. I don't believe that ninjas are often assassins in black. There may have been some, but those are what drive the kinds of tropes that inevitably lead to Dr. McNinja, so you know it can't be the norm.

Many of the historical ninja were peasants, oftentimes such people who can't afford a sword and thus improvise with what they've got. The notion of the silent killer comes from the idea that...in war time if nowhere else...peasants did not care HOW they dispatched a samurai, who is built for a stand-up fight. Peasants are not warriors. They just want the enemy dead. What lead to the black-clad figures was likely misinformation and tall tales to give others a degree of concern and to look for the wrong thing.

The idea that the farmer, the butcher, the common worker...would do things in a shouty manner is preposterous, because he (or she) would DIE. A little truth-in-tale from Rurouni Kenshin is that most commoners weren't even allowed to own a sword even if they could buy one. It was a higher-class thing. No sword means no easy way to deflect those keen-cutting blades, so a stand-up fight is out of the question most of the time. Killing silently isn't just better. It's required as a survival trait!

Naruto doesn't follow this. If anything, it's suppose to take after Japanese legends and the romantic notion of the ninja itself, not the historical ones. The thing about that, though, is that it doesn't fit the romanticism either. I can't really think of any sort of ninja - fictional or non-fictional - that acts like any of these people. Bruce Lee is quieter, and he outright beats the crap out of everyone! (Though, he had several cases of sneaking around and using disguises effectively in movies.)

I didn't make the comment idly. I meant it. And if someone from Japan who knows history better than I do (probably alot) would like to step forward, I'll gladly discuss it, but in the meantime I have to stick with my guns on this one.

Yea thats pretty accurate The Kunai was a favourite weapon of the ninja because it was their equivalent of a trowel a very common farming tool. If they got caught with it they could just pretend they were on their way to work.

The black costume is actually from Japanese theatre the stage hands would dress all in black an would be ignored by the audience, so if director wanted to shock his audience with a surprise attack he would have one of these black costumed prop men jump out from the background. an that?s how the ninjas ended up with the black pj's.

Just thought you might be interested

 

[Asuka Soryu]

My biggest gripe with Bleach was that Ichigo defeats Zaraki with just a shikai and then later Zaraki beats an Espada without an major power increase in between. And I know there was some sort of Aizen manipulating Ichigo from the shadows attempt at an explanation but it really didn't work to my mind. I know this kind of thing is common in that kind of anime but that was really really badly done.

Actually, the manga just explained why that happened.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

I'm a zillion chapters behind in Naruto and am unlikely to catch up, but didn't Kabuto explain the Edo Tensei has basically no restrictions at all?

From what I remember, the only rules that it has is you need to make living sacrifices to bring back people. Other then that, it's just a level of mastery that determines who you can bring back, how much of them you can bring back and how much control you have over them.

 

[knight steel]

SNIP

Nothing about Naruto makes any sense, especially since it doesn't have any ninjas in it. (Rather, it contains shouty people with super powers.)

Some things are just poorly-made.

Yeah in Naruto when it showed the 5 Lords using video conferencing I was like, what? Ya'll serious? Technology is a very very confusing thing in Naruto. Surely if they had that, then they would have phones at least.

Not to mention the fact that they call themselves ninjas yet they appear to be as stealthy as DBZ characters.

The power levels in Bleach are just pure messed up - they've always been messed up. Do Soul Society not find it ridiculous that their ordinary foot soldiers are absolute shit, meaning all the real combat of real threats must be done by vice-captains and captains? To very same people who probably shouldn't have to be the ones doing literally all of the fighting. They didn't even bother brining the ordinary shinigami to the battle with Aizen and his Arrancar - they knew fine rightly there was no point. What the f*ck did they do the whole time?

The only one is isn't really ninja like in Naruto is... well the title character.

Don't get me wrong, Naruto went entirely off a cliff around the Pain Arc. Kishimoto had convinced me he has zero writing talent left, if he ever had any at all.

As far as Bleach goes, the footsoldiers deal with local criminals. They also have squad duties (Squad 4 are medics, Squad 2 are assassins, Squad 12 is R&D) Why you need 13 battalions to do that is beyond me, but at least they're not entirely useless.

<-----Look at my avatar now back to you now look at my avatar now back to you, unfortunately you are not me but if you stopped being a hater you could enjoy naruto like me.
Look down now back up,where are we I'll tell you we are in Kishi studio where he is working hard daily for your enjoyment,what's in your hand I have it,it's naruto manga,the manga is now happiness.
Anything possible when you stop being a Hater,I'm having fun dudududu ^_^

 

[Zetatrain]

Well in Gundam Wing it seems like the grunt mobile suits blow up if you so much as sneeze on them, but if one of the main characters is piloting them then suddenly they become bullet sponges....Plot Armor FTW.

 

[knight steel]

Naurto: Ok, there is plenty that could be done here - not least of which is "Ninja engaging in mass attrition warfare against an enemy that outnumbers them by a freaking lot". But one thing that always struck as particularly ridiculous is long-range communication in the Naruto world. They use messenger pigeons and some weird telepathy power later on.

Ok.......except that this is a world where television, telephones AND PORTABLE EARPIECE RADIOS EXIST. AND ARE COMMONLY AVAILABLE. Don't believe me? It what they use the coordinate the Chunin exam in the first seasons of Naruto and during Squad Seven's first mission. And most of the houses and stores have at least a small TV and phone in them.

But carrier pigeons and telepathy, right? Its not like those radios have any tactical military applications at all or anything........

I'm guessing you're referring to the 4th ninja war with that Attrition comment,in which case when did they say it was a war of attrition? The best I can recall shino while fighting zetsu clones said it might become an war of attrition simply because of how many/durable they were and how they were ending up in a stalemate,the commanders never went out of their way to make it an attrition war.

As for technology,it hasn't been perfected yet with either only important people/institutions having it or it being useless for wartime/battles. Example the portable earpiece radio is extremely short ranged and you can't kill people with tv's [well you can but it not practical]. Also telepathy is much better think about it-it has no limit in range-you can contact anyone regardless of their position and it can't be intercepted!!

 

[knight steel]

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

I'm a zillion chapters behind in Naruto and am unlikely to catch up, but didn't Kabuto explain the Edo Tensei has basically no restrictions at all?

I agree with the bolded part 1000%
Also naruto wiki has all the answer's:http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning%3A_Impure_World_Reincarnation

 

[anthony87]

Has Bleach gotten better? I stopped reading in the middle of the Fullbringer arc for being really freakin' boring. After the already boring year long fight with Aizen and then the hundred or so chapters of mostly boring fights prior to that.

Can't really say... They're on what's supposed to be the final arc. So, I reckon if I've been with it this far, I might as well see it to the end.

Spoiler

Quincys attack the Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, killing off several shinigami/hollows. Ichigo shows up, nearly gets killed, awakens a new power and has to go train it.

Huh. I need to get back into reading that. Same with Naruto since I hear Naruto is also ending soon? Possibly? Those two and One Piece are always so hard to get into due to the sheer number of chapters to read.

Well "soon" could mean anything with these manga but the current story arcs for both Bleach and Naruto are definitely the final arcs. As for One Piece....well apparently it only hit the halfway mark at the time skip so if we were to take that literally then we're looking at another 600 chapters or so.

And like someone else already said, Bleach has really come out of its slump since getting into this final story arc.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

I suppose I could recommend Full Metal Alchemist, if you hadn't seen already.
Which you should have.
for a long time already.

FMA keeps it's rules very simple, and then sticks with it, bringing it up many times again to have it bite characters in the ass.

If you have to pick between the first series or the brotherhood series, the first one had better pacing and atmosphere, while brotherhood has a stronger second act and supporting cast, and is more light-hearted if you're into that.

both are quite excellent though.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

maybe, but the point is more about the essence of the archetype or myth in question, vampires are meant to be parasitical in some form and have a weakness for sunlight, among other things, look up Twilight and it's critisisms for referance on that.

although the black pajama's are not the core essence to a ninja (and quite silly anyway), the stealth aspect is, taking a medieval knight and call him a ninja because, "hey, they both fought and killed people" does not make it a ninja.
I thing Naruto comes a lot closer to a fighting monk, focussed on the perfection of his fighting skills for his own noble purposes rather than a code or creed, exposing injustice rather than quelling it in the dead of night.

you know, like a ninja would.

 

[Korenith]

My biggest gripe with Bleach was that Ichigo defeats Zaraki with just a shikai and then later Zaraki beats an Espada without an major power increase in between. And I know there was some sort of Aizen manipulating Ichigo from the shadows attempt at an explanation but it really didn't work to my mind. I know this kind of thing is common in that kind of anime but that was really really badly done.

Have you been keeping up with the manga? This is kind of explained in 526.

Spoiler

Ever since his first fight with Kenpachi Unohana, Zaraki has been unconsciously restrained his power, so he could enjoy fighting longer. It was only after he killed her in battle that he would be able to remove the restraint and learn the name of his zanpakto.

Ah I wasn't aware of that. I don't tend to follow the manga when it's an action based story because I like watching the fights unfold in real time and since the anime has stopped I had no idea they explained it. I retract my objection!

 

[Weaver]

Most shonen sucks.

This is unfortunately true.
Though it's weird you mention Shinryaku! Ika Musume as an alternative, because it's a sh&#333;nen as well.

 

[DeeWiz]

So I've been watching/re-watching some of my anime lately and its brought up something I find a bit annoying. I enjoy it when an anime does its best to stay true to its own lore/internal logic. But it drives me nuts when writers seem to completely forget about or ignore their own logic and established lore. I mean, is it seriously that hard to stay consistent and true to your own world?

Here are a couple of examples:

Sekirei: At the finale of Season 2, the main character Minato has to make it to the top of MBI's headquarters, the tallest building in Tokyo by 4:00PM that day - if he does MBI's CEO will give the hospital where a friend of his is the plans for a treatment to help his friend. In order to make it harder for him though, MBI's CEO tells everyone who has a Sekirei in the city that if they stop Minato from reaching the top of the tower, they won't be forced to give up their Sekirei and (supposedly) be excused from fighting the rest of the tournament meaning they won't be putting their Sekirei in danger. Sounds bad for Minato, right?

Except that Minato has 6 Sekirei of his own, 4 of which are part of the top 10 strongest Sekirei, one of whom is supposed to be the smartest Sekirei ever, and Minato himself is supposed to be a near-genius level intellect himself. His Sekirei each have a power that would help, including - super strength allowing incredible jumps, the ability to manipulate plant life, flight granted through manipulation of the wind and water manipulation which has been previously shown to allow the user to generate a surface that you can stand on.

What does he opt to do?

Take the #@$^#&# stairs.

Yes, he puts all of his Sekirei in danger, himself and everyone else by taking the stairs and having to fight through traps and the building. Which leaves everyone exhausted when the big bad shows up at the end.

Even worse is there were no rules about how to get up there - it was literally just "Get up here by 4:00PM". He could've rented a freaking helicopter and been fine.

Naurto: Ok, there is plenty that could be done here - not least of which is "Ninja engaging in mass attrition warfare against an enemy that outnumbers them by a freaking lot". But one thing that always struck as particularly ridiculous is long-range communication in the Naruto world. They use messenger pigeons and some weird telepathy power later on.

Ok.......except that this is a world where television, telephones AND PORTABLE EARPIECE RADIOS EXIST. AND ARE COMMONLY AVAILABLE. Don't believe me? It what they use the coordinate the Chunin exam in the first seasons of Naruto and during Squad Seven's first mission. And most of the houses and stores have at least a small TV and phone in them.

But carrier pigeons and telepathy, right? Its not like those radios have any tactical military applications at all or anything........

Easy explaination - that whole ending is made up. It is filler. The manga did not have it at all, read the mange if you want to know what actually happened.

Internal logic is a big thing with all media and they try to keep it consistent but when you have multiple writers and years worth of lore it is hard to keep it all straight. In serialized TV, budget allowing, they usually have a guy whose purpose is to check upcoming scripts for inconsistencies. Also, like the case with Naruto, you start of world bulding and have a neat concept, like ninja's in a semi-modern age, but as you develop the story it will take on a life of it's on and you either have to retcon what you established earlier or just ignore it.

 

[Mangod]

Well, in the defense of "manga" (generlization, hooo...), western storytelling (...ooo!) isn't exactly internally consistent either. Just take Star Trek and its treatment of the Prime Directive. Here's a breakdown of the problems with it: http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/e113.asp

 

[CrystalShadow]

SNIP

Many of the historical ninja were peasants, oftentimes such people who can't afford a sword and thus improvise with what they've got. The notion of the silent killer comes from the idea that...in war time if nowhere else...peasants did not care HOW they dispatched a samurai, who is built for a stand-up fight. Peasants are not warriors. They just want the enemy dead. What lead to the black-clad figures was likely misinformation and tall tales to give others a degree of concern and to look for the wrong thing.

Actually, I've done a small amount of research on what the reality of ninjas were. They were indeed peasants most of the time, but they were also an apparent military force of some kind at one point or another.

Most of what they really did has largely been lost in history, though it seems they were basically mercenary assassins. And were known for sneaking into castles, blending in with everyone there, then opening the gates to let an army in (or kill a general, or something similar)

However, the black clothes are an interesting story in and of themselves. Supposedly it originates with Kabuki theatre.
The outfit currently associated with Ninja is in fact a common form of clothing worn by stage-hands in Kabuki theatre productions.

The black costumes tend to blend into the backgrounds, but also, because the stage-hands are responsible for altering the set dressing, and doing all manner of things that aren't technically part of the story, audience members become accustomed to ignoring them.

So how does that relate to ninja? Well, at some point it started to become a habit to depict the stealth and surprise of a ninja attack, by literally having someone dressed as a stagehand (who, of course, the audience is accustomed to ignoring) jump out and attack one of the actual cast members.

Given that the audience was used to treating the stage-hands as though they weren't actually there, to have one jump out and do something like kill one of the characters in the play really did come across as though an attack had come from nowhere.

So, the stereotypical ninja outfit, historically, is actually the clothing worn by stagehands in theatre productions, and came to be associated with ninja and stealth due to the surprise of having a stagehand suddenly turn out to actually be involved in the story.

 

[CrystalShadow]

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

maybe, but the point is more about the essence of the archetype or myth in question, vampires are meant to be parasitical in some form and have a weakness for sunlight, among other things, look up Twilight and it's critisisms for referance on that.

although the black pajama's are not the core essence to a ninja (and quite silly anyway), the stealth aspect is, taking a medieval knight and call him a ninja because, "hey, they both fought and killed people" does not make it a ninja.
I thing Naruto comes a lot closer to a fighting monk, focussed on the perfection of his fighting skills for his own noble purposes rather than a code or creed, exposing injustice rather than quelling it in the dead of night.

you know, like a ninja would.

Hmm... Well, the thing is, the very earliest version of Naruto (I'm not sure how much of it exists. Maybe not more than a handful of manga pages or a single volume at most) was about wizards.

Naruto and everyone else were wizards at some point, not Ninja. Which, when you think about it, makes a lot more sense, even taking into account all the martial arts content, it seems to make a lot more sense of much of what's going on...

 

[Something Amyss]

Why would you limit it just to animes? It's not like all other forms of media don't have internal logic inconsistencies.

Anime seems to have cornered the market share, though. I've seen more consistent logic in B movies than most anime, and that's saying something.

...And still I watch, so that either tells you something about how enjoyable it is or how bad my pattern recognition is.

>.>

Well at least we can all take comfort in the knowledge that Death Note maintains it's own lore pretty well.

*squints at avatar* Is that...Is that the Boston Greatest Hits album cover?

It occurs to me that we really only have problems with misrepresentations of other people's cultural artifacts, not our own. We don't mind if vampires drink blood or drain life force or just eat like normal people, are immortal or not, age or don't, turn to ash in sunlight, have to be staked through the heart or shot with a silver bullet, turn into demons, have super-strength, or shoot lasers out of their hands, but if ninjas aren't dressed in black and silently assassinate people...well that's just wrong.

Personally, I'm generally annoyed if they do dress in black, since the idea of the black outfit is generally to blend in. That means wearing it in a lot of scenarios is just ridiculous.

Still, you might find we do care about our own cultural misrepresentation when it skews far enough off axis. For example, mention Twilight and you're going to get a lot of people berating it because, among other things "Vampires don't sparkle." I think your argument just became invalid.

And while I'm not a big Naruto watcher and my knowledge is admittedly limited, I can see the complaints here being similar to the Cullen clan.

Also, it occurs to me that one of the big problems with vampire mythology is that it is cobbled together from literally thousands of sources from literally hundreds of cultures and deals with what was never really a singular construct. If we were to continue this analogue, that would imply that ninja were also fictitious entities with no unified source material for the comparison to be at all accurate. It's hard to argue what a "real vampire" is. Less so for a ninja.