Anita Sarkeesian + Hitman Absolution = Epic Fail

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Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Anita is, and always has been, a clueless fuckin dimwit. Don't people know this by now?

She doesn't care about being objective at all. She has a goal. And that is to find stuff that she, as some kind of feminazi, can complain about. And she will find it everywhere she looks, because she wants to see it. She doesn't even make an effort to think about things objectively. She will make shit up, misinterpret on purpose or because she's an idiot and she will jump to conclusions in order to make her point. Why do so many people still pay attention to this fuckin' moron is beyond me.
 

IceForce

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?
How many strip clubs are full of only male strippers?

You see, if you're going to make an attempt at even a semi-realistic portrayal of something seedy like a strip club, in a video game, it's going to have the same 'gender bias' as the real thing does. Does that make the video game sexist?
Windknight said:
How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
People take showers, it's what they do. People take showers naked, it's what they do.
This is not unique to males or females.

Sorry, but I don't see any sexism present in this scene.

In my opinion, it's presented relatively tastefully, and not sexualized at all.




Though it's interesting how a shower curtain magically appears out of nowhere.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
nomotog said:
ThingWhatSqueaks said:
nomotog said:
There is that spot in absolution where you have to use the body of a dead stripper to distract some guards. Well I guess you don't have to have to, but it is about the only way you can do that segment without getting shot at.
Really? I do not remember that. In all fairness that may have occurred after I stopped giving a fuck about being stealthy so there's that...
Did you beat the level after the strip club? That is where this segment is. I kind of think if you found the area you would know it. It's not the only place the game has sexualized violence on women. I mean it opens the game with you killing a woman in the shower. Heck that shower is the title screen.
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
you can undress men in this game, no woman can be undressed

these women are sex workers, why in the hell should they not be sexualized?

is like asking for a scientist character to be spectacuraly dumb, is out of character

men dont go to stripper clubs to see reasonably dressed women i can tell you that
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Matthew Jabour said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
Matthew Jabour said:
Well, let's look a bit broader. Why don't we start with the fact that there IS a strip club level in the first place. The game does not need to have a strip club level for the plot to progress, and women are the only ones ever in such a situation. The intent to willingly code in a level based around a sexy club which features sexy women dressed - or undressed - sexually, almost certainly to appeal to the male player, is not exactly benign. And need I remind us all the other sexism charges this game faced? *coughkungfulatexnunscough*

Obviously, Sarkeesian is taking things too far. But any game where you would not have to go out of your way to beat up female strippers is asking to be called out.

P.S.: To prove I'm trying to take the middle ground here, I leave you with a Bro Team quote:

(shoots stripper) THIS IS SEXIST.
(shoots guy) THIS IS ACCEPTABLE.
the real world also has strip clubs, where, mostly women work

is reality sexist?
The real world also has S&M clubs. Put one of those in your game, and people would be a little disturbed.
well if you are disturbed thats fine but you must recognize thats your fault, it doesnt mean the game is sexist

as for S&M, sure why not
 

IceForce

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NuclearKangaroo said:
you can undress men in this game, no woman can be undressed
This right here is the main point I was making with this thread.

In fact, not even Thunderfoot included this point in his video.

Anita goes to great lengths to show all the terrible things one can do to the female background characters in Hitman Absolution, but she completely neglects to mention that it's possible to treat men in this game WORSE than women.

Can you imagine the outcry there would be, if it was possible to undress women in this game and wear their clothes?
 

NuclearKangaroo

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IceForce said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
you can undress men in this game, no woman can be undressed
This right here is the main point I was making with this thread.

In fact, not even Thunderfoot included this point in his video.

Anita goes to great lengths to show all the terrible things one can do to the female background characters in Hitman Absolution, but she completely neglects to mention that it's possible to treat men in this game WORSE than women.

Can you imagine the outcry there would be, if it was possible to undress women in this game and wear their clothes?
thatd be hilarious

that being said you can undress women in bethesda games so i assume the outcry wouldnt be big, that is, unless anita made a mountain out of a grain of sand yet again
 

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NuclearKangaroo said:
these women are sex workers, why in the hell should they not be sexualized?

is like asking for a scientist character to be spectacuraly dumb, is out of character

men dont go to stripper clubs to see reasonably dressed women i can tell you that
IceForce said:
Windknight said:
How many strip clubs are full of only male strippers?

You see, if you're going to make an attempt at even a semi-realistic portrayal of something seedy like a strip club, in a video game, it's going to have the same 'gender bias' as the real thing does. Does that make the video game sexist?
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
Windknight said:
How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
People take showers, it's what they do. People take showers naked, it's what they do.
This is not unique to males or females.

Sorry, but I don't see any sexism present in this scene.
Wow... everybody showers naked... such a compelling and insightful argument, next your going to tell me the sky is blue, and the pope is catholic, and other wonderful factoids that have no bearing on the point I was making.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
these women are sex workers, why in the hell should they not be sexualized?

is like asking for a scientist character to be spectacuraly dumb, is out of character

men dont go to stripper clubs to see reasonably dressed women i can tell you that
IceForce said:
Windknight said:
How many strip clubs are full of only male strippers?

You see, if you're going to make an attempt at even a semi-realistic portrayal of something seedy like a strip club, in a video game, it's going to have the same 'gender bias' as the real thing does. Does that make the video game sexist?
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
why?

why cant we treat sex workers in a game in the same way we treat every other npc? why must we discriminate them for their gender and condition?

devs dont make special rules for police NPCs, ambulance drivers, firefighters or random pedestrians, why is the discrimination on sex workers nessesary?
 

WindKnight

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NuclearKangaroo said:
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
why?

why cant we treat sex workers in a game in the same way we treat every other npc? why must we discriminate them for their gender and condition?

devs dont make special rules for police NPCs, ambulance drivers, firefighters or random pedestrians, why is the discrimination on sex workers nessesary?
Because sex workers are the epitome of dis-empowered. Many are slaves, many are the victims of sex trafficking, many have been forcibly hooked on drugs, and many have literally no other way to make money.

And society likes to treat them as scum and disposable for all that.

And lets make this poin t again, as you skipped over it - these characters are presented as sexualised and sex objects... Violence towards them brings in and uncomfortable element of sexualised violence, something which can bring in unfortunate and unpleasant undertones that really should not be there.
 

briankoontz

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IceForce said:
Just because something is bad, violent, or abhorrent, doesn't mean that it's automatically sexist.

Unfortunately, Anita has gone down the route of showing violent acts performed against female NPCs in video games, even though the violent acts are not even unique to female NPCs at all. And she's ended up discrediting herself in the process.

Could it be due to scope creep? Probably.
Anita isn't a serious intellectual, and her narrow focus on women and only women shapes her entire understanding of seemingly everything around women. There's always going to be problems with everything Anita does unless she addresses these issues, but there's no reason to expect she will. And there's benefits to having such a narrow focus - sometimes she sees things others don't whose vision is wide enough to encompass more reality.

Just because Anita's not an ideal intellectual or ideal representative of feminism doesn't mean she doesn't have good points. When you're looking for diamonds in the rough, you can complain about the rough or be happy when you find diamonds.

The stripper as sexist is complicated, since it's true that women in games are often depicted in sexual ways that men are not, but it's also true that NPCs regardless of gender are overwhelmingly victimized in games.

So we could look at it this way - would a female NPC rather be an engineer blown away by the "hero" or a stripper blown away by the "hero"? It seems like the NPC regardless of how they are depicted would rather have their life respected, and once they are not just a violated and exterminated object they can determine what profession they prefer.

Your point is completely valid - Anita's narrow scope, her desire to be a feminist hero instead of a serious intellectual, caused her to overconsider sexism as a factor in this case. But it's also true that because there's so much Sarkeesian hate among gamers, they'll jump on every flaw or problem she has, pointing out and laughing at every "rough" and doing their best to ignore the good points she makes. How is this any better?

Sarkeesian is not an enemy to gamers. She's a flawed intellectual who makes some good points about women in games. Every good point she makes benefits gamers and game developers. It's fine to point out her flaws in the hope that she can improve upon them but it's really silly to demonize her out of a mistaken thought that she's an enemy.

I'm going to look for more serious feminist gamer intellectuals on the internet, and if I find any who produce better work than Sarkeesian I'll talk about them in this forum. But maybe Sarkeesian, for all her flaws, is the best out there.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
nomotog said:
ThingWhatSqueaks said:
nomotog said:
There is that spot in absolution where you have to use the body of a dead stripper to distract some guards. Well I guess you don't have to have to, but it is about the only way you can do that segment without getting shot at.
Really? I do not remember that. In all fairness that may have occurred after I stopped giving a fuck about being stealthy so there's that...
Did you beat the level after the strip club? That is where this segment is. I kind of think if you found the area you would know it. It's not the only place the game has sexualized violence on women. I mean it opens the game with you killing a woman in the shower. Heck that shower is the title screen.
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
Killing people brutally is a-ok! It's only when they are wearing skimpy clothing when it gets creepy...

The mental gymnastics people go through to be offended :eek:
 

WindKnight

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SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
Killing people brutally is a-ok! It's only when they are wearing skimpy clothing when it gets creepy...

The mental gymnastics people go through to be offended :eek:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
nonetheless combing sex with violence - sexualised violence - goes into an uncomfortable and unpleasant place, with general implications that need to be carefully though out, which in this case are simply not being thought out. Thats before we get into the way sex worked face actual violence and degrading treatment for being sex workers, are treated as disposable or may have actively been trapped into their line of work.

None of these aspects come into play when killing other npc's whether their male or female (and she only specifically calls out violence towards and treatment of sex workers in this video).
why?

why cant we treat sex workers in a game in the same way we treat every other npc? why must we discriminate them for their gender and condition?

devs dont make special rules for police NPCs, ambulance drivers, firefighters or random pedestrians, why is the discrimination on sex workers nessesary?
Because sex workers are the epitome of dis-empowered. Many are slaves, many are the victims of sex trafficking, many have been forcibly hooked on drugs, and many have literally no other way to make money.

And society likes to treat them as scum and disposable for all that.

And lets make this poin t again, as you skipped over it - these characters are presented as sexualised and sex objects... Violence towards them brings in and uncomfortable element of sexualised violence, something which can bring in unfortunate and unpleasant undertones that really should not be there.
and many CHOOSE to be sex workers, stop putting people in the same bag, i bet many sex workers find attitudes like yours condescending

they are sex workers, arguing they look sexualized is beyond absurd, sex workers, they provide sexual services, the very nature of their work is sexualized, what the hell do you expect?

and lets not forged the fact that YOU ARE TRYING TO KILL THE ABUSIVE BOSS OF THESE SEXUAL WORKERS, IN WHAT UNIVERSE IS THAT SEXIST?, THE GAME IS ACTIVELY CRIMINALIZING THE VERY THING YOUR ARE CRITIZING, IT REWARDS YOU FOR KILLING THE ABUSIVE GUY, IT PUNISHES YOU TO HURTING THE STRIPPERS, WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Windknight said:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
do you have sex with the strippers? do they provide sexual services you you as the player?

if not you are complaining about something that isnt even there
 

SUPA FRANKY

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Windknight said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
Killing people brutally is a-ok! It's only when they are wearing skimpy clothing when it gets creepy...

The mental gymnastics people go through to be offended :eek:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
It's creepy...but slitting people's throats and bashing their skulls in isn't?

I don't see whats so offensive.. You don't have to kill the strippers lol.
 

WindKnight

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NuclearKangaroo said:
Windknight said:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
do you have sex with the strippers? do they provide sexual services you you as the player?

if not you are complaining about something that isnt even there
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
Killing people brutally is a-ok! It's only when they are wearing skimpy clothing when it gets creepy...

The mental gymnastics people go through to be offended :eek:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
It's creepy...but slitting people's throats and bashing their skulls in isn't?

I don't see whats so offensive.. You don't have to kill the strippers lol.
Sexualised violence (a mistyping from my original post I must admit... sexual violence is a very different thing, and I had intended sexualised) is violence where the victim is sexualised - presented in a manner that's sexually attractive and potentially arousing to the veiwer.

So, presenting someone as something your supposed to find arousing and murdering them (however graphically) is quite a bit more unpleasant than killing a man or woman in a nice suit who is not sexualised.

Sex and violence do not belong together.
 

NuclearKangaroo

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
Windknight said:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
do you have sex with the strippers? do they provide sexual services you you as the player?

if not you are complaining about something that isnt even there
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
Killing people brutally is a-ok! It's only when they are wearing skimpy clothing when it gets creepy...

The mental gymnastics people go through to be offended :eek:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
It's creepy...but slitting people's throats and bashing their skulls in isn't?

I don't see whats so offensive.. You don't have to kill the strippers lol.
Sexualised violence (a mistyping from my original post I must admit... sexual violence is a very different thing, and I had intended sexualised) is violence where the victim is sexualised - presented in a manner that's sexually attractive and potentially arousing to the veiwer.

So, presenting someone as something your supposed to find arousing and murdering them (however graphically) is quite a bit more unpleasant than killing a man or woman in a nice suit who is not sexualised.

Sex and violence do not belong together.
so if this wasnt a stripper club, if instead this was, a pool or a beach, where theres a lot of women in bikinis, i wouldnt be allowed to kill them because thatd be sexualized violence? if i found a women attractive in the game, even if say, she is the villain, im not allowed to kill her because its sexualized violence?, if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

see how that logic doesnt work?

plus adding to that point, sex workers, they provide sexual services, they dress in arousing ways, its their job, your argument pretty much puts them in a different level from everyone else in the game because of the nature of their work, that is discrimination

explain to me how the job of a sex worker is not inherently sexualized, if you cant do that your argument is completely empty
 

SUPA FRANKY

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Windknight said:
NuclearKangaroo said:
Windknight said:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
do you have sex with the strippers? do they provide sexual services you you as the player?

if not you are complaining about something that isnt even there
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
Windknight said:
what about the men you kill constantly, all the time, throughout the game?

plus doesnt it bother you in the slightest that she fabricated proof?

if what you are saying its true and hitman is a women beating simulator, why show false proof?
How many of those men are sexualised?

How many of those men are presented as sex objects?

How many of those men do you kill naked in the shower?
Killing people brutally is a-ok! It's only when they are wearing skimpy clothing when it gets creepy...

The mental gymnastics people go through to be offended :eek:
Sex and Violence are different things. Mixing them together brings on a third thing, sexual violence, which has creepy and unpleasant undertones.

Barely any gymnastics there, just simple logic. Do you struggle with simple logic?
It's creepy...but slitting people's throats and bashing their skulls in isn't?

I don't see whats so offensive.. You don't have to kill the strippers lol.
Sexualised violence (a mistyping from my original post I must admit... sexual violence is a very different thing, and I had intended sexualised) is violence where the victim is sexualised - presented in a manner that's sexually attractive and potentially arousing to the veiwer.

So, presenting someone as something your supposed to find arousing and murdering them (however graphically) is quite a bit more unpleasant than killing a man or woman in a nice suit who is not sexualised.

Sex and violence do not belong together.
Ah, so it's perfectly rational and normal to murder a women in a dress or a man in a suit, but I should avoid doing so when they are undressed.

that means I can murder some A Middle Eastern and Alaskan populace in the droves!

Really, if you can't handle the violence, why not just stick to rated T or E games? I don't really see the difference between murdering people who have their top either on or off. Murdering people is wrong regardless, but its a video game lol.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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NuclearKangaroo said:
and many CHOOSE to be sex workers, stop putting people in the same bag, i bet many sex workers find attitudes like yours condescending

they are sex workers, arguing they look sexualized is beyond absurd, sex workers, they provide sexual services, the very nature of their work is sexualized, what the hell do you expect?

and lets not forged the fact that YOU ARE TRYING TO KILL THE ABUSIVE BOSS OF THESE SEXUAL WORKERS, IN WHAT UNIVERSE IS THAT SEXIST?, THE GAME IS ACTIVELY CRIMINALIZING THE VERY THING YOUR ARE CRITIZING, IT REWARDS YOU FOR KILLING THE ABUSIVE GUY, IT PUNISHES YOU TO HURTING THE STRIPPERS, WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?
Somewhere between 70%-90% of all sex workers worldwide are forced into prostitution and have not willingly entered the field (Sex Trafficking: Inside the Business of Modern Slavery. Kara, 2009). Saying that many chose to be sex workers is in this context a gross misrepresentation of the reality of prostitution. That media keeps glorifying the presence of prostitution is pretty troublesome in that light.

But that is ignoring the main problem: Why are there strippers and prostitutes in the game to begin with? What purpose do they serve to the narrative? Would the narrative suffer if they weren't included?
One could argue that the Hitman-series has always had a thematic lean towards Noir and a cynical, borderline nihilist outlook on the events, characters and locations in the game. 47's targets are all terrible people who engage in depravity and who make their money on dubious business like drugs, weapon smuggling, prostitution, trafficking and other forms of organized crime. 47 is an anti-hero that kills these people not because it is right, but because he is paid to do so, in essence being only marginally better than his victims (on account of being emotionless and seemingly uninterested in the vices offered).

The above could work as an explanation, but the problem is that we never see these strippers and prostitutes as anything but sex objects. They are literally just there to be titillation for the player. You could change any of the missions in any of the Hitman-games were strippers appear to a location without strippers and the narrative wouldn't change. That, right there, is an indication that they serve no purpose other than to titillate and provide fanservice.

One should also note that apart from deducting arbitrary points, Absolution doesn't punish excessive use of force or cruelty to bystanders. You can go guns blazing through the strip club and murder every last person and still complete the mission and move on like nothing happened. I wouldn't really call that punishing the player, since it is way closer to suggesting a playstyle.
 

WindKnight

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NuclearKangaroo said:
so if this wasnt a stripper club, if instead this was, a pool or a beach, where theres a lot of women in bikinis, i wouldnt be allowed to kill them because thatd be sexualized violence? if i found a women attractive in the game, even if say, she is the villain, im not allowed to kill her because its sexualized violence?, if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

see how that logic doesnt work?
I see how your 'logic' doesn't work. I have to ask, why would you want to gun down a pool or beachs worth of sunbathers? And yes, I personally would find that kind of violence just as disturbing and sexualised as violence against sex workers.

Also, is this villainess, and the security guards going around dressed in a sexualised manner and presented as sex objects? Please show me these sex object security guards.


plus adding to that point, sex workers, they provide sexual services, they dress in arousing ways, its their job, your argument pretty much puts them in a different level from everyone else in the game because of the nature of their work, that is discrimination

explain to me how the job of a sex worker is not inherently sexualized, if you cant do that your argument is completely empty
Does the fact their job makes them sexualised magically make violence against them not sexualised? Does that somehow make it alright?