Anita Sarkeesian + Hitman Absolution = Epic Fail

[NuclearKangaroo]

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

damn right i expect you to defend that absurd position

"shes allowed to dress as she damn well pleases and thats bad"

the hypothetical villain is based around that person because, shes not an outfit, like i said, i think the most attractive aspects of her are her face and smile

im absolutely blaffed that you couldnt see past her outfit, that you couldnt see the unbelievable beautiful woman behind that costume, im honestly kind of disgusted by your way of thinking

'Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit'


Character. CHARACTER CHARACTER.

Do you REALLY not get the distinction between a character and a person?

Also, could you please stop trying to 'trick me' into 'slut shaming' the cosplayer? its pretty blatant what your trying to do.

do you?

i want talking about the woman, not the character she was dressed as, again, for the 50th time, why... do... you... care?

you go out of your way to get offended or to talk about "sexualization"

 

[WindKnight]

do you?

i want talking about the woman, not the character she was dressed as, again, for the 50th time, why... do... you... care?

you go out of your way to get offended or to talk about "sexualization"

My thoughts on the woman? ok.

'she makes a cute Rikku'

'thats a neat Rikku Cosplay'

I don't know her, so thats all I really have to go on about her. Everything else Is Rikku.

RikkuRikkuRikku.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

You seem to be ignoring presentation and posing. Scantily clad women are draped over the scenery and are generally in pin-up poses, or put into impossible or uncomfortable poses that maximise their sexualisation.

unless you are paraplegic im pretty sure you can do this

Spoiler

you are not critizing the character for being an object, you are not critizing it for having pin-up poses, you are critizing it for wearing a bikini while letting scantily dressed male FF characters pass

Men are given poses of power, strength and fortitude, or shown defeating powerful foes. Even when presented as beefcake for romance novels, their poses are of strength, power, even dominance. Its telling from the Jim C Hines posts that all the female poses he imitated caused him discomfort or pain, while only one of the male poses caused him mild discomfort.

Even when sexualised, men are given a lot more dignity and agency than women are.

what if a women is shown doing the exact same thing?

why do you keep bringing the whole picture when discussing individual cases

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

do you?

i want talking about the woman, not the character she was dressed as, again, for the 50th time, why... do... you... care?

you go out of your way to get offended or to talk about "sexualization"

My thoughts on the woman? ok.

'she makes a cute Rikku'

'thats a neat Rikku Cosplay'

I don't know her, so thats all I really have to go on about her. Everything else Is Rikku.

RikkuRikkuRikku.

well since i showed you this

Spoiler

instead of this

Spoiler

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vdvcWftChsc/Tw7KLaA2anI/AAAAAAAABDk/q3s1DJjASf8/s1600/rikku01.jpeg[/img[/spoiler]

i think its pretty clear i was talking about the real person, not the character, this real, incredibly attractive person is a villian, i have to kill her, is that "sexualized" violence whatever?

 

[WindKnight]

why do you keep bringing the whole picture when discussing individual cases

Because this really is a big picture thing. Individual cases would not be problematic or worrying if they weren't the sign of an overwhelming trend.

 

[WindKnight]

i think its pretty clear i was talking about the real person, not the character, this real, incredibly attractive person is a villian, i have to kill her, is that "sexualized" violence whatever?

if its a 'villain' its a character in a game, not real person.

your are really not doing so well at distinguishing a real person from a character are you?

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

why do you keep bringing the whole picture when discussing individual cases

Because this really is a big picture thing. Individual cases would not be problematic or worrying if they weren't the sign of an overwhelming trend.

heres the problem with that way of thinking

when a truthly strong sexy female character appears like say, bayonetta, people jump the gun and simply dismiss her and yet another "sexualized object" or something like that

i think its pretty clear i was talking about the real person, not the character, this real, incredibly attractive person is a villian, i have to kill her, is that "sexualized" violence whatever?

if its a 'villain' its a character in a game, not real person.

your are really not doing so well at distinguishing a real person from a character are you?

oh, so Christian Bale really is batman?

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

 

[WindKnight]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

 

[Azure23]

do you?

i want talking about the woman, not the character she was dressed as, again, for the 50th time, why... do... you... care?

you go out of your way to get offended or to talk about "sexualization"

My thoughts on the woman? ok.

'she makes a cute Rikku'

'thats a neat Rikku Cosplay'

I don't know her, so thats all I really have to go on about her. Everything else Is Rikku.

RikkuRikkuRikku.

well since i showed you this

Spoiler

instead of this

Spoiler

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vdvcWftChsc/Tw7KLaA2anI/AAAAAAAABDk/q3s1DJjASf8/s1600/rikku01.jpeg[/img[/spoiler]

i think its pretty clear i was talking about the real person, not the character, this real, incredibly attractive person is a villian, i have to kill her, is that "sexualized" violence whatever?[/quote]

I suppose I'd classify it as sexualized violence if the killing was presented in a certain way. Like have you ever seen high school of the dead? I heard zombie anime and got excited, anyway I watched the first few episodes (gotta give it a proper chance after all) and came away pretty thoroughly grossed out. It has panty shots of girls being disembowled and eaten, at one point the camera lingers on a huge breasted torso, just a torso. It's not great. Or there's a part in Hellsing Ultimate (I watched plenty of anime when I was a bit younger) where Alucard is slowly impaling a woman with the barrel of her long rifle, the scene goes on forever, her cheeks are flushed as if she's blushing, and she's moaning like she's getting off. These are both examples where the violence is meant to be sexually titillating, and specifically because it's happening to attractive women (although personally I think Hellsing character designs are waaaay to lanky). I have no problems with attractive characters getting killed or otherwise brutalized, the world can be a cruel place and good looks can make you a target more often than not, just don't present it in such a way that you (not you obv) expect me to be getting off to it.

Human sexuality is a nebulous and complex thing, I like it rough, if my back is bloody by the end all the better (sorry to dump my kinks out), but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing women (or men for that matter) in pain. In your hypothetical game if your amazingly beautiful super villainess met her end in a normal-video gamey death scene (dramatic speech, promises of vengeance with her dying breath, you know what I mean) kinda deal I'd have no problem with it and I don't think anyone else would either. But if you spattered her face and tits with blood and had her clothing rip and the camera lingered lovingly on said face and tits then I'd be grossed out and disappointed (disappointed mostly because a woman like that deserves better).

Also I didn't mean to imply Rikku was sex object in my previous post. I love her character, I really like al the al bhed but Rikku in particular because she's willing turned herself into a pariah in order to fight against dumb religious dogma that will directly result in the death of a family member. I even think her outfit makes sense within the context of the world (everyone has some weird, strappy fashion but the al bhed especially) and particularly when you take into account that she's one of like three characters who can fight underwater in FFX. Rikku's great, and that Rikku cosplayer is great.

 

[Mr Companion]

I agree with a lot of what Anita objects to but holy s**t does she like using examples of things that also apply to male characters. In fact I almost lose count sometimes, like when she talked about children's toys encouraging young girls to cook and raise children. Sure they do but how is teaching those ideas to little girls terrible but teaching little boys that killing and fighting are all totally awesome is A-OK? It's just 2 flavors of cultural brainwashing and some might argue that teaching useful life skills is less offensive than teaching mindless violence.

I mean I try to like her but in the end I can only come to a single conclusion: We needed an Anita Sarkeesian but Anita Sarkeesian wasn't the Anita Sarkeesian we needed. The games industry needs to change it's represenation of women (because frankly even I'm sick of seeing it and I'm a man) but we need somebody who can deal with the criticism, proof read her own work for obvious fallacies and present her ideas in such a way that doesn't seem like an emotionless robot with sarcastic drawn on eyebrows is telling everybody that man are inherently misogynistic dinosaurs.

 

[WindKnight]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

Is she being presented in a sexually attractive manner? is she being posed, presented and acting in a manner thats more about putting emphasis her sexual appeal over her ability to actually fight? How is she attired? what are her combat actions, what are her voice samples?

Your giving me one variable when a lot more are involved. You are oversimplifying things

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

Is she being presented in a sexually attractive manner? is she being posed, presented and acting in a manner thats more about putting emphasis her sexual appeal over her ability to actually fight? How is she attired? what are her combat actions, what are her voice samples?

Your giving me one variable when a lot more are involved. You are oversimplifying things

says the person accusing one character of being sexualized for what shes wearing

lets go back a few pages and read what you wrote

Sexualised violence (a mistyping from my original post I must admit... sexual violence is a very different thing, and I had intended sexualised) is violence where the victim is sexualised - presented in a manner that's sexually attractive and potentially arousing to the veiwer.

i find this person attractive and im forced to commit violence agaisnt her, what else do you need?

 

[jacob idstrom]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

That depends on why the character looks the way they do. Obviously the hypothetical game developers made the character to look a certain way, why did they make her look like that? If there was some kind of valuable artistic reason to sexualize the character then I would totally stand behind their decision to do so. If not then I would have to ask what other reasons they might have for making the character look that way, and if the only reason is they wanted to kill a hot girl character then yes I would call that sexualized violence.

 

[Azure23]

I agree with a lot of what Anita objects to but holy s**t does she like using examples of things that also apply to male characters. In fact I almost lose count sometimes, like when she talked about children's toys encouraging young girls to cook and raise children. Sure they do but how is teaching those ideas to little girls terrible but teaching little boys that killing and fighting are all totally awesome is A-OK? It's just 2 flavors of cultural brainwashing and some might argue that teaching useful life skills is less offensive than teaching mindless violence.

I mean I try to like her but in the end I can only come to a single conclusion: We needed an Anita Sarkeesian but Anita Sarkeesian wasn't the Anita Sarkeesian we needed.

Well put, I think most reasonable gamers will admit that representation of women in games could be better but goddamnit if she doesn't muddy the waters with her misguided and uninformed arguments. Hopefully an actual feminist scholar will step up to open a dialogue with game developers so we can have better, deeper characters of both sexes. Too often detractors of modern, mainstream feminism forget that it's actually advocating for the real men's issues too, such as the issue you brought up. I don't only want to play as gruff, maladjusted guys.

We should all just go read coelasquid's excellent webcomic- manly guys doing manly things. I swear that thing is just brimming with wisdom.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

do you?

i want talking about the woman, not the character she was dressed as, again, for the 50th time, why... do... you... care?

you go out of your way to get offended or to talk about "sexualization"

My thoughts on the woman? ok.

'she makes a cute Rikku'

'thats a neat Rikku Cosplay'

I don't know her, so thats all I really have to go on about her. Everything else Is Rikku.

RikkuRikkuRikku.

well since i showed you this

Spoiler

instead of this

Spoiler

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vdvcWftChsc/Tw7KLaA2anI/AAAAAAAABDk/q3s1DJjASf8/s1600/rikku01.jpeg[/img[/spoiler]

i think its pretty clear i was talking about the real person, not the character, this real, incredibly attractive person is a villian, i have to kill her, is that "sexualized" violence whatever?[/quote]

I suppose I'd classify it as sexualized violence if the killing was presented in a certain way. Like have you ever seen high school of the dead? I heard zombie anime and got excited, anyway I watched the first few episodes (gotta give it a proper chance after all) and came away pretty thoroughly grossed out. It has panty shots of girls being disembowled and eaten, at one point the camera lingers on a huge breasted torso, just a torso. It's not great. Or there's a part in Hellsing Ultimate (I watched plenty of anime when I was a bit younger) where Alucard is slowly impaling a woman with the barrel of her long rifle, the scene goes on forever, her cheeks are flushed as if she's blushing, and she's moaning like she's getting off. These are both examples where the violence is meant to be sexually titillating, and specifically because it's happening to attractive women (although personally I think Hellsing character designs are waaaay to lanky). I have no problems with attractive characters getting killed or otherwise brutalized, the world can be a cruel place and good looks can make you a target more often than not, just don't present it in such a way that you (not you obv) expect me to be getting off to it.

Human sexuality is a nebulous and complex thing, I like it rough, if my back is bloody by the end all the better (sorry to dump my kinks out), but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing women (or men for that matter) in pain. In your hypothetical game if your amazingly beautiful super villainess met her end in a normal-video gamey death scene (dramatic speech, promises of vengeance with her dying breath, you know what I mean) kinda deal I'd have no problem with it and I don't think anyone else would either. But if you spattered her face and tits with blood and had her clothing rip and the camera lingered lovingly on said face and tits then I'd be grossed out and disappointed (disappointed mostly because a woman like that deserves better).

Also I didn't mean to imply Rikku was sex object in my previous post. I love her character, I really like al the al bhed but Rikku in particular because she's willing turned herself into a pariah in order to fight against dumb religious dogma that will directly result in the death of a family member. I even think her outfit makes sense within the context of the world (everyone has some weird, strappy fashion but the al bhed especially) and particularly when you take into account that she's one of like three characters who can fight underwater in FFX. Rikku's great, and that Rikku cosplayer is great.[/quote]

oh my god HSoTD, ive only seen clips of it, now those are some ridiculous boobs physics and i can agree those exist for the pleasure of the male viewer, theres really no reason for them to be there

my friend and i used to joke how in one scene boobs seemed to literally move faster than a bullet

but not, im actually trying to discredit Windknight's definition of sexualized violence, which i think is dumb, because theres more than one way in which a character can be attractive and his definition marginalizes sex worker from any sort of violence in a game, which is stupid

[QUOTE=Windknight]

Sexualised violence (a mistyping from my original post I must admit... sexual violence is a very different thing, and I had intended sexualised) is violence where the victim is sexualised - presented in a manner that's sexually attractive and potentially arousing to the veiwer.[/QUOTE]

man i love this girl so much i dont even want to think about killing a character based on her in a video game, but for the sake of the argument that happens, is just the usual villain affair, speech and all and she dies, her death isnt sexual in any way shape or form, but according to Windknight, is still sexualized violence because i found the character attractive

now that i think of it, this would be an interesting idea for a video game, a character the player is supposed to like, hell probably find attractive, a would-be love interest, turned agaisnt him, and the player being forced to fight her

similar to the ending of MGS3, where snake is forced to kill the boss, of course their relationship was more along the lines of student and mentor, altough the game also turns a love interest into an antagonist, but you never fight her

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

That depends on why the character looks the way they do. Obviously the hypothetical game developers made the character to look a certain way, why did they make her look like that? If there was some kind of valuable artistic reason to sexualize the character then I would totally stand behind their decision to do so. If not then I would have to ask what other reasons they might have for making the character look that way, and if the only reason is they wanted to kill a hot girl character then yes I would call that sexualized violence.

why?

just because a villain is attractive doesnt mean the game is sexist

 

[WindKnight]

It's still an incredibly broad generalization to say that any woman that's designed with revealing clothing (yeah, it's not like women ever intentionally choose to wear these kinds of outfits because they want to wear them, it's just men trying to objectify them) is sexualized objectification and that all musclebound scantily clad men are always nothing more than male power fantasies (especially when a lot of romance novels will feature these kind of men on their covers, I suppose those are just male power fantasies too though). It's also pretty shitty to insinuate that just because a woman is portrayed as wearing revealing clothing that somehow devalues them as a character or that they have nothing else to them other than that. You seem to be focusing way to hard on a single aspect when that isn't the full picture.

To go back to an earlier post (and the works of Jim C Hines) Women are posed as pin-ups and sex objects, draped over the scenery or put in impossible poses more about displaying there sexual characteristics and nothing else. The Female Book Cover poses Hines emulated were abut sex, nothing else, and were at the very least uncomfortable or even painful to hold.

Even the romance cover beefcakes are given poses of strength, power, and even dominance. Of the poses Hines emulated, only one gave him mild discomfort.

Even sexualised men get more more dignity and agency than women do.

 

[WindKnight]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

That depends on why the character looks the way they do. Obviously the hypothetical game developers made the character to look a certain way, why did they make her look like that? If there was some kind of valuable artistic reason to sexualize the character then I would totally stand behind their decision to do so. If not then I would have to ask what other reasons they might have for making the character look that way, and if the only reason is they wanted to kill a hot girl character then yes I would call that sexualized violence.

why?

just because a villain is attractive doesnt mean the game is sexist

Attractive is not sexualised. There's more to sexualisaton than a pretty face.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Thats a Character, as in a fictiona

aparently now a character cant be performed by a person or based on a person

tell me, what is this

Spoiler

its incredible how hard it is to communicate even the most simple idea to you, i have to use pictures and examples

A character, as in a fictional created character. It is played by Ozzy Osbourne, based on Ozzy Ozbourne but is Not Actually Ozzy osbourne... I mean, I never once saw him doing drugs or biting heads off bats, and I doubt Ozzy likes to hang out in the land of metal all day doling out upgrades to Eddie Riggs.

excellent now, listen:

imagine a game where there is a villain character based around that cosplayer i showed you, this female character looks just like her, she is of course incredibly attractive by herself, regardless of outfits

got that? good

now i have to kill this character, as in the ingame avatar i control has to kill her, she is the villain and she did some bad stuff and such, since i find her attractive, is that "sexualized" violence?

That depends on why the character looks the way they do. Obviously the hypothetical game developers made the character to look a certain way, why did they make her look like that? If there was some kind of valuable artistic reason to sexualize the character then I would totally stand behind their decision to do so. If not then I would have to ask what other reasons they might have for making the character look that way, and if the only reason is they wanted to kill a hot girl character then yes I would call that sexualized violence.

why?

just because a villain is attractive doesnt mean the game is sexist

Attractive is not sexualised. There's more to sexualisaton than a pretty face.

then you better work more on your definitions, before saying stuff like

Sexualised violence (a mistyping from my original post I must admit... sexual violence is a very different thing, and I had intended sexualised) is violence where the victim is sexualised - presented in a manner that's sexually attractive and potentially arousing to the veiwer.