Fist of all: Cut out the condescending tone, please. Phrases like
The implication that she thinks the tropes should be stopped is plainly obvious. It's not "hidden" behind anything, thats obviously the point of the series. I mean it's called "Tropes vs. Women", I think it's safe to say no-one will be mislead by what that title implies. Indeed, all your talks about how she is "cowardly hiding her true intentions" seems to imply that you accuse her of a much more sinister objective.
Taking Mario 1 as an example, you are of course quite right that 7 toads are rescued before the princess. However, it should be noted that the story of Mario isn't "Mario rescues 7 toads and then a princess", it's "Mario rescues a princess and finds 7 toads along the way". And, though I cannot say this with any authority, I assume it's somewhat similar with at least some of your other examples: The hero sets out to rescue the princess from evil, but along the way there are lots of tasks to be done, and you also have to rescue a lot of other people from both genders. Which means that the theme "Hero rescues princess" is the story arc that binds everything else together. This is why I think "oh but
you also rescue x males" is not always a good argument. I hope I am making any sense to you.
andthat my friend
Just make you look like kind of an asshole in my eyes, and I don't see why I should converse with someone who acts like that.Bravo, was waiting for you to finally realize this one.
runic knight said:If all she did was discuss the trope and then end with that, then you'd be right. But she did not, did she? Instead she brings in ant-women culture and violence against women and so on, thereby associating the tropes with that. The reason I called that the tactic of a coward is because rather then coming out actually saying what she wants, she instead hides behind the fact she didn't actually say it, but does nothing to clarify and everything to present it like the tropes should be stopped (after all, they are related to violence against women, why wouldn't we want that to stop, right?)
To adress these two points in one: Why is the association brought up? Because frankly, if the issue had no real-world implications, there wouldn't be much reason to talk about it, would there? The whole project is founded on the belief that our culture informs our actions, and so it obviously is implied that sexism in games has negative real-world consequences. Is that a proven fact? Hell no. But for some people (including me) it seems likely enough to warrant some thought. I mean sure you can stay on the standpoint that until the exact interaction between games, culture and actions is proven with exact quantification, you will listen to no-one talking about any possible interactions. Whether that is a useful stance to take is another question entirely.runic knight said:But it is implied, and no, it is not a "think about it" thing so much as an implication of cause. I ask you again, why the hell does someone with full control over the project bring violence against women up in the first place if not stress its association to the topic of the video series? Especially one already going long like covering the trope did. By including it at all we have to assume she thinks it related to the topic in some degree and the presentation and lack of provided reason easily suggests what conclusion she means the audience to draw. At that point it is not merely an opinion, but a tacit accusation.
The implication that she thinks the tropes should be stopped is plainly obvious. It's not "hidden" behind anything, thats obviously the point of the series. I mean it's called "Tropes vs. Women", I think it's safe to say no-one will be mislead by what that title implies. Indeed, all your talks about how she is "cowardly hiding her true intentions" seems to imply that you accuse her of a much more sinister objective.
But I didn't claim that the effect is "even across the board" or that it contributes "only" to sexist culture. The issue with tropes and stereotypes is that it doesn't much help if you are aware of them or not. Hear them enough and they will still find their way into your subconscious. Obviously you are misrepresenting the relation when you simply say that it "leads to" sexism, because that implies it's the main reason. But if you ask me if movies with racist undertones contribute to racist behaviours, like disproportionate police brutality, I would say "yeah, probably". I mean I don't have proof, it's just my opinion.runic knight said:No. It is a leap in logic. Even assuming the games are sexist, which as I said before requires we first assume the tropes are, then that the tropes change the overall message of the game enough so the game itself is sexist, it still requires the leap to say that a sexist game promotes sexism in culture. See, while games may affect culture, how they affect it is not necessarily even across the board, hence the leap in logic. Aspects such as story or characters, or that game's overall message (and tropes) may have absolutely zero affect on culture while other aspects still do, such as music or graphics or gameplay. The flaw here is the assumption that (for the sake of the point here I will just call assumed) sexist games can only contribute to sexist culture. Does a movie that is sexist or racist only contribute to a sexist culture? One could easily argue the second Bayformer movie was racist, though did it add to a culture of racism or were perhaps people aware enough of the tropes and stereotypes that it did not have that effect? After all, if it did, we could as easily argue the transformer movies lead to police brutality and unemployment rates for minorites according to Anita's presentation.
Err, no. An argument is valid regardless of whether the premises are true. I realize I might have confused the terms "valid" and "sound" in this discussion, I apologize. Assume that whenever I said "sound" I actually meant "valid".runic knight said:the issue here is 2 fold. First, an argument requires a true premise to start with unless you are hypothetical (if we assume premise is true then).
Well, I feel this is kind of a tough argument to make. First of all you can't really fault someone for stating their premise, or thesis, outright and then attempting to prove it. That's generally how we structure academic papers (not that the videos would be very academic), so it's a valid way to argue. What I assume you are saying is that she is seeing patterns where there are none, because she wants to see them. But thats your conclusion based on arguments such as "cherry-picking", so I don't think it's and individual point to raise.runic knight said:When they are tied with unproven assertions such as what is sexist or how that applies overall, you can not claim the premise true. No, nothing in her videos presumes them to by hypothetical overall either. Secondly she started with the conclusion, thereby voiding the idea of a true argument as she is now looking for reasons to support said conclusion rather then crafting an argument based on the premise and what that means over all.
Ok, I can accept all that, these are perfectly valid criticisms. Thats what is worth discussing here.runic knight said:Also, I explained why I dismiss half of her premises, that being they are not observable, they are personal interpretation and most of all, them being unfounded and unsupported except by other unfounded and unsupported things.
The tropes are used frequently is an observable fact. It is raw data and part of the reason they are tropes in the first place. The reason I accept that is because it is demonstrably true. The tropes are sexist is her personal opinion, is not well backed and is impossible to quantify in any meaningful way as the definition is a binary one (it either is or it is not)that requires individual interpretation most of the time. That is why I don't accept it.
There is a world of difference between "presume I have 3 white blocks" and "Presume the blocks are racist because they are only white".
I didn't forget, I answered you the first time and I will answer you again. Now the problem is I haven't played a single game of the ones you listed, except for Mario 1, so it's kinda hard for me to tell whether or not you are correctly presenting them. So I can only answer in somewhat broad terms.runic knight said:Actually, it is very commonly told with captured males. In fact, often within the same games with damsels as well. We went over this before when I talked about cherry picking an the scores of examples of captured men that you were missing because you were not looking for that, but instead were looking for women alone. That is the whole damn problem, even after I explain why it is wrong and what you are looking at incorrectly, you still do it again as though you just forgot or you assume I wont call it out for the same issues the second time.
Not all rescued captives are women. Most are not. Stop pretending otherwise.
(mario 1: 7 toads to one princes, Mario 2: Bees[genderless?] Mario 3: 7 kings to one princess, Mario World: 7 Yoshi babies to 1 princess. Orcarina of time: 4 carpenters, 6 plus gorons to 2 princesses, one who was not actually in danger(Ruto in fish) Majora's Mask: 1 moneky male to one wood princess) Do I have to go on before you stop claiming something that is demonstrably untrue?
As I said before, there may be an argument concerning the overall trend about women as secondary characters, but that is not a mark against the tropes themselves, especially not when they are slanted the other damn direction then what you try to claim. But more of that below.
Taking Mario 1 as an example, you are of course quite right that 7 toads are rescued before the princess. However, it should be noted that the story of Mario isn't "Mario rescues 7 toads and then a princess", it's "Mario rescues a princess and finds 7 toads along the way". And, though I cannot say this with any authority, I assume it's somewhat similar with at least some of your other examples: The hero sets out to rescue the princess from evil, but along the way there are lots of tasks to be done, and you also have to rescue a lot of other people from both genders. Which means that the theme "Hero rescues princess" is the story arc that binds everything else together. This is why I think "oh but
you also rescue x males" is not always a good argument. I hope I am making any sense to you.
Well, it seems I have not made myself clear, let me try again. What I meant to say is that a "trope", by definition, is not a single instance, but a group of instances. You are certainly correct in saying that "the trend of using more of this trope is sexist, so the trope itself is sexist" is fallacious. However, when we look at whether the base trope is sexist, we are already looking at a group of instances. Consequently, it would also be fallacious to say "this single story using the trope is not sexist, so the trope is not sexist".runic knight said:Wrong. What you are doing is looking at the over all trend and making judgements about the individual pieces of that trend. That is bad logic. If you want to have an argument about the trend itself, you can not try to tie implications of that trend onto the tropes itself because that my friend is a Fallacy of Division. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division
What you are trying to do is to claim that the trend that emerges is directly because of the piece that make it up carry that same trait.
Good point, it wasn't a good argument.runic knight said:Well, when you need to look at things along gender lines in the first place, you will see all sorts of female only applications for universal words. For instance "captive" "hostage" "prisoner" and "rescue plot" cover things pretty well on their own regardless of gender. I am not the one trying to cherry pick things along gender lines, and it is a bit naive to think that because someone in the past has it in any way supports your argument here. It is a general term made up by a culture that already assumed males are default when coming up with the language and terms. While I don't agree with that, the language was created at a time when there was far less equality. I can not fathom why you would think that matters at all in a discussion in the 21st century as though there being a word "damsel" somehow actually impacts the god damn numbers of things. It is language, how one expresses ideas or thoughts, that it has conventions that are outdated now, such as terms like "damsel" or even classifications doesn't matter. For an example, the word "atheism" is a word defined by what it is not (not a theist), even though that is based on the presumption the default state is theist. It isn't true, and it is just a word used to express an idea, it doesn't mean anything more then at the time of creation of the they choose it as an example of a break of the default.
I don't care much for your tone, but I can agree with that definition. So would you agree to say that a trope is sexist when the majority of characters from the same gender share very similar character traits?runic knight said:Bravo, was waiting for you to finally realize this one. People have different definition of sexism, thereby making every claim relating to it already shaky to begin with. Not impossibly so, but enough it would be better to avoid the term sexist all together when making cases concerning it and instead work the personal definition in. Though some find it hard to avoid catchy terms like it I suppose.
I define sexism as bias towards or discrimination against one gender on the basis of that gender itself.
Ok, that point is somewhat settled, then.runic knight said:Yes. Putting aside my complaints of the video, it is us as consumers and drivers of the market demand who shape the products we get over and over. That is why I think it is very important people have the right information to shape those opinions that in turn shape the industry. Sad though it is though, I see Anita's behavior as dishonest and more manipulative of people in order to shape them into her opinions. But yeah, the general concept you said here, right on.
Well she certainly seems to elicit a whole lot of emotions, that much is clear. I think you are touching on a very important point here: She is a figurehead. She has become bigger than life because by engaging with gaming culture (which not a lot of people have done before her) she has caused a big divide in the community. This has kind of made her bigger-than-life and also probably put her in a position where she really cannot live up to that responsibility. Which is why I think it's irrational to hate her, no offense. I think we would have these same discussions, these same heightened emotions if it were anyone else who had first raised the issue. But I am repeating myself. The reason she is still so prominent in the discussion is that apparently, the discussion still needs a figurehead. There is no rational discussion of sexism in gaming because there is still no consensus that it even exists. As long as there isn't even a basic consensus on what the issue is, the discussion will revolve around the people claiming there is an issue.runic knight said:I had seen her videos on Smurfs and legos long before she made the kickstarter. My opinion then was dismissal of a quack, nothing more. As the kickstarter came out, I was dismissive of her ability, but I did honestly think there was a lot of good within the topic to talk about and it may be worthwhile. I think back then my only negative comment about the project itself was something to the effect of "I don't like how she worded it as a look to show sexism". Other then that I was dismissive of the trolls and flamers making the community look bad for being overly emotional. Then as time went by and I learned more about her, I disliked her more. She was claiming the entire opposition was like the trolls. She was misrepresenting gamers that way. Her videos had been spammed around 4chan, making it even more likely that it wasn't average gamers replying but the asshole of the net itself. So on and so on.
He having an opinion is nothing. No one cares about that. The way she presents it, the way she has become a figurehead of a movement in gaming and the sheer bullshit in her videos though tend to be what people are pissed about. It is not because she is a woman, or that she thinks there are problems. Most people don't care about that at all. It is that she is seen, she is used, she is looked to as a mouth piece that pisses a lot of people off. The standard backlash of fame mixed with the sheer amount of wrong in what she presented. She is not a gamer, she is a thief and a liar. She is divisive and her as a figure has overshadowed the discussions of the topic themselves. She refuses discussion or to acknowledge any criticism and as an example, as a role model if I may borrow something from earlier in the thread, she acts, well, like a troll when you look past the monotone presentation. She has become the Alex Jones of gaming discussion by her own fault. Do note when I call her cancerous or toxic, it is not because of her character as a person (though there is plenty there to bash I imagine), it is because of her behavior and the results of it on the discussions. Look at these forums. Look and see how many threads are bloated on discussion of her herself and how many are of the topics raised.
You can't call what she does discussion, that is solely proselytizing .