Another thread about sexism in video games.

[hanselthecaretaker]

Abby from TLoU2 is a particularly good example of a strong female character.

Yuk-yuk

Really though, it’s kinda ironic that the brand of feminism currently pushing its way through the industry is doing its damndest to strip as much femininity out of women as they can, to the point they may as well either be male or androgynous. It also says something about how childishly far behind the curve the west has remained in its attitudes about sexual representations in media and pop culture. It’s like a pendulum swinging back and forth from one extreme to the other without any semblance of balance or rationality. I’m glad the more degrading forms of porn and smut mags are far less visible than they used to be, but when any attention brought to the female form is considered shameful or degenerate in itself then how is it really helping young, impressionable women? It also doesn’t help that decent parental guidance seems to be a dwindling commodity.

 

[BrawlMan]

Depends on the game. Usually it's a satire of games types or anime story tropes, most of the games like that are Japanese so it's hard to directly equate what the target of the joke is supposed to be because I don't know enough about Japan. But if I had to guess, it might be a shot at the super conservative culture and the idea of embarrassment that would occur if you got in a fist fight to keep your clothing on. Or something like that, there are plenty of obsured anime concepts that exists, like Food Wars.

Your argument is so full of crap and you know it. We call that the blind otaku weeaboo defense. The fact that you don't even know, and are guessing what they're satirizing in both games, shows you don't know shit, and you are just making stuff up just to prove a false point.

Regardless of culture, good satire is good satire, bad satire is bad satire, and no satire is no satire. Neither of the fan-service games you describe have satire. And just because something has satire, does not automatically make it good or immune to the criticism. I blame people for relying too much on South Park or Cinema Sins for that. I swear, ever since South Park came out, people will use satire as a blanket excuse for anything. Without having any idea what the word means or what it's used for.

 

[CriticalGaming]

Regardless of culture, good satire is good satire, bad satire is bad satire, and no satire is no satire.

The point is that there is a culture barrior there and that what one culture considers good satire can be considered bad in another. So you can only criticize based on your culture and not the culture in which the satire was created. And I'll admit these hyper over the top games like Akiba Strip might not be intended to be satire but meant to fit another niche in the market entirely.

What people have failed to state in any solid detail is how the existance of games like Senran Kagura or Onechambra, are detremental to society and women by large. IMO it's the same argument of "video games cause violence", which has been studied over and over again with negative results. It's projection of prudish senisbilities that demonize the female form as @hanselthecaretaker said above. How does repressing the nature of the female body help women as a whole in anyway?

 

[BrawlMan]

Whining, incoherent, hypocritical, babbling I don't care about.

Yeah, we're done here. I need not hear anything else.

 

[Jarrito3002]

I remember that. Wasn't it some douche on twitter? They need to be pimp slapped in the face multiple times for such a dumb statement.

I don't know could of been Twitter, could of been reddit, or random forum all assclownery is just one giant mesh to me now.

 

[Jarrito3002]

Is she supposed to be a mess, because I think that has more to do with the slightly awkward Bioware way in which the characters are presented. There are plenty of moments where Aloy is sassy or light-hearted in her interactions, but the presentation doesn't make it come across too well. I have some nitpicks about Aloy though. She's alright, but I feel her character arc is rather lacking.

You can be a mess and yet still have moments of sass and light hearted interaction that what made me like the character. Her arc is at the behest of the plot which was overall the build up could of been structured better but the reveals were so cool or wtf that it made up for it.

I just wince at times at personality traits being gendered but that is probably for separate discussion even it fits with in this umbrella.

 

[Gordon_4]

Commander Shadowsun is canonically female, and has a model without helmet. Best reference for what female Tau look like we got. Noticeably more human-like facial features. Big ass battlesuit tho, so no clues as to what the rest of her looks like.

 

[Chimpzy]

That Custodes must be the runt of the litter.

 

[Gordon_4]

That Custodes must be the runt of the litter.

It would kind of explain' Kitten's unpopular standing wit the Fab Custodes......

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The point is that there is a culture barrior there and that what one culture considers good satire can be considered bad in another. So you can only criticize based on your culture and not the culture in which the satire was created. And I'll admit these hyper over the top games like Akiba Strip might not be intended to be satire but meant to fit another niche in the market entirely.

Lots of things can fit "niches in the market". That's not an argument for or against, not an argument on whether or not they're sexist, and not an argument for "satire". Seriously, what even made you bring up "satire" as a defense when you literally don't have a clue?

What people have failed to state in any solid detail is how the existance of games like Senran Kagura or Onechambra, are detremental to society and women by large. IMO it's the same argument of "video games cause violence", which has been studied over and over again with negative results. It's projection of prudish senisbilities that demonize the female form as @hanselthecaretaker said above. How does repressing the nature of the female body help women as a whole in anyway?

Does something have to be detrimental to society to not like it and say so publicly? If I complain about how most AAA games are based on violence and that there should be less of that, do I have to point out a direct objective societal harm to have that opinion in public?

How does sexualizing female characters help women as a whole? Does sexualizing fictional high school characters help women as a whole?

 

[Hawki]

I think we do see female covenant, aren't the skirmisher jackals female? I think some of the lines in Infinite said they were and there was a one or two named ones that you take out that are. But yeah, none besides that.

I don't think the Skirmishers are explicitly one gender. There's probably male and female kig-yar alike, even if you can't tell. But there is a female kig-yar HVT in Halo Infinite, so there's that.

Do necrons really have genders? They came out after I stopped paying much attention to the lore so I don't know what their deal is, plus I think their lore got changed a lot... so at this point I really don't know what their deal is. Also, are the fire warriors of the tau supposed to be integrated, cause technically they might have females and we just wouldn't know unless gw put out big boob models with mid rift armor, which seems to be the direction that players who customize female tau squads seem to be going. That's the thing about "realistic" armor and females, if the armor is actually realistic then its kinda hard to tell the difference between genders.

Necrons, no, necrotyr, very likely, since most species have two sexes. Just notable that of the named necrons, there's no female ones as far as I can tell.

And yes, I think the tau have integrated warriors, but again, Shadowsun is the only named female tau I can name.

Yet in male led videogames you can bet your bottom there'll be some girl for the hero to get romantic with.

Not really. It's probably more common than females, but hardly universal.

I can't think of any female protagonists that shack up with or even develop a crush on a man, apart from Abby in TLoU2 and Kat in Gravity Rush. Now that I think about, in Resident Evil 2 we get a male and a female protagonist; Leon gets a love interest, Claire doesn't. Surprise, surprise. And the reason for this is likely because developers are afraid of getting the straight male audience uncomfortable with having their avatar get a bit too close to another man.

Really disagree. Leon has a love interest in RE2. That love interest betrays him, and either ends up dead, or presumably dead, or possibly alive, based on the playthrough you take. And Leon and Ada still haven't tied the knot - in fact, I don't think a single main RE character has ever ended up with another romantically over the course of a game, to the extent that it actually annoys me.

As for Claire, well, let's assume that's true, but is the Claire-Sherry relationship too bad? The mother-daughter thing is done well in RE2, and I'd argue done even better in the RE2 remake. And then there's Steve in Code: Veronica. Much as I hate the twat, he's clearly pining for Claire, and by the end of it, Claire clearly has some level of affection for him, even as he dies.

Come to think of it, RE's actually incredibly chaste with its male-female relationships. Jill and Chris are still refusing to admit there's a 'thing' between them. Leon and Ada are still dancing around each other, Leon and Claire have a broken friendship as of Infinite Darkness, Leon explicitly refuses "overtime" with Ashley, there's no romance between him and Helena, and yeah, he does kiss Angela, but a) no-one cares about Angela, and b) it at least has the excuse of 'air transfer.' The fandom's got no shortage of shipping, but in the games? Yeah...

Not even close to always. How many CoD's have romances in them?

Um...Reyes and Salter from Infinite Warfare? Granted, that's close friendship rather than romance. And well done.

Halo?

In the games? Um...er...

Forge and Anders? No, just implied, and Forge ends up dead anyway.

John and Cortana? No, don't think so...there's a bond, but I don't see it as romantic. Something that goes beyond friendship, since Cortana spends so much time inside John's head, but not love.

Johnson and Miranda Keyes? Well, squick as the age difference would be, maybe...but it's just as easily a father-daughter esque relationship.

...yeah, I got nothing.

Do you mean romantic interest at all? Or just ones that you can actually bang? Because there are shitloads of games that do not have the later.

even Halo had Cortana there as sort of a 'look, there's a girl with you *wink wink*'.

Cortana's undoubtedly attractive/sexualized, but see above as to why I don't see it as romantic.

That Cortana is 'sexy' (more in some games than others) is more for the player than John. Bear in mind that the Spartan-IIs have reduced sex drives, so even if Cortana was the hottest babe this side of Alpha Halo, John's literally incapable of having sexual desire for her.

 

[Hawki]

That Custodes must be the runt of the litter.

I smell heresy...

Oh God, that's not heresy, that's...ew...

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Cortana's undoubtedly attractive/sexualized, but see above as to why I don't see it as romantic.

That Cortana is 'sexy' (more in some games than others) is more for the player than John. Bear in mind that the Spartan-IIs have reduced sex drives, so even if Cortana was the hottest babe this side of Alpha Halo, John's literally incapable of having sexual desire for her.

Cortana's one of those "the explanation is stupider than just not having an explanation" situations, it's hilarious

Why is Cortana naked? Halo franchise director Frank O'Connor has an answer

The Halo universe is full of strange mysteries. Perhaps none so strange, however, as why Cortana appears lacking clothes while other AIs choose to render

www.gamesradar.com

"She's not really nude … but that's what it makes you think of," O'Connor explained. "So one of the reasons she [chooses to appear without clothes] is to attract and demand attention. And she does it to put people off so that they're on their guard when talking to her and she has the upper hand in those conversations."
"It's kind of almost like the opposite of that nightmare you have where you go to school in the nude," O'Connor said. "You're terrified and embarrassed and she's kind of projecting that back out to her audience and winning intellectual points as a result."

 

[Casual Shinji]

Really disagree. Leon has a love interest in RE2. That love interest betrays him, and either ends up dead, or presumably dead, or possibly alive, based on the playthrough you take. And Leon and Ada still haven't tied the knot - in fact, I don't think a single main RE character has ever ended up with another romantically over the course of a game, to the extent that it actually annoys me.

I never said the romances work out just that in RE2's case the romantic subplot is conveniently given to the guy and the motherly relationship to the woman.

Main heroes not staying in a relationship is a whole other problem within popular fiction. Just look at James Bond, Indiana Jones, and every damn superhero.

As for Claire, well, let's assume that's true, but is the Claire-Sherry relationship too bad? The mother-daughter thing is done well in RE2, and I'd argue done even better in the RE2 remake. And then there's Steve in Code: Veronica. Much as I hate the twat, he's clearly pining for Claire, and by the end of it, Claire clearly has some level of affection for him, even as he dies.

I'd say all of them are pretty bad. But Steve certainly takes the fucking cake.

Come to think of it, RE's actually incredibly chaste with its male-female relationships. Jill and Chris are still refusing to admit there's a 'thing' between them. Leon and Ada are still dancing around each other, Leon and Claire have a broken friendship as of Infinite Darkness, Leon explicitly refuses "overtime" with Ashley, there's no romance between him and Helena, and yeah, he does kiss Angela, but a) no-one cares about Angela, and b) it at least has the excuse of 'air transfer.' The fandom's got no shortage of shipping, but in the games? Yeah...

This is a thing with most japanese games along with most anime; a lot of sexy teasing without hardly ever any follow through.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Really though, it’s kinda ironic that the brand of feminism currently pushing its way through the industry is doing its damndest to strip as much femininity out of women as they can, to the point they may as well either be male or androgynous. It also says something about how childishly far behind the curve the west has remained in its attitudes about sexual representations in media and pop culture. It’s like a pendulum swinging back and forth from one extreme to the other without any semblance of balance or rationality. I’m glad the more degrading forms of porn and smut mags are far less visible than they used to be, but when any attention brought to the female form is considered shameful or degenerate in itself then how is it really helping young, impressionable women? It also doesn’t help that decent parental guidance seems to be a dwindling commodity.

...Is it? Like, I'm trying to think of any example that isn't Abby from TLOU2 and she's a maybe.

Or is it just we've stopped deciding that the only measure of a female form is it's function as eye candy?

 

[Worgen]

I'm kinda suprised this thread hasn't just devolved into people posting as close to nsfw stuff as they can without being banned.

I don't think the Skirmishers are explicitly one gender. There's probably male and female kig-yar alike, even if you can't tell. But there is a female kig-yar HVT in Halo Infinite, so there's that.

I don't get why the Kig-yar aren't on the humans side. Even during the covenant war they were more mercenary then true believers, can't the humans just hire them? Also, where fuck is the Arbiter?

 

[Hawki]

I never said the romances work out just that in RE2's case the romantic subplot is conveniently given to the guy and the motherly relationship to the woman.

Bearing in mind that the roles are reversed in Code: Veronica, with Claire getting the romance plot, and Chris getting the 'dad plot.'

Barry gets plenty of 'dad plots' as well, namely in Gaiden and Revelations 2.

Main heroes not staying in a relationship is a whole other problem within popular fiction. Just look at James Bond, Indiana Jones, and every damn superhero.

Not sure how that's a problem per se. But to those specific characters, if James Bond stayed in a relationship, he'd no longer be James Bond. That, and it reduces the impacts of Tracy and Vesper, depending on what continuity you're going by.

Also, Jones ended up marrying Marion, so I'm not sure how that still stands.

I don't get why the Kig-yar aren't on the humans side. Even during the covenant war they were more mercenary then true believers, can't the humans just hire them?

The kig-yar aren't on any one "side" post-Covenant War. Most of them these days are pirates and mercs. So yeah, we're still fighting them in the games, because some of them have side with/been hired by 'Mdama's Covenant or the Banished. Plenty of others have more amicable relations with humans.

Also, where fuck is the Arbiter?

I assume on Sanghelios?

Makes me wonder though. Cortana asks Atriox to stand down, and destroys Doisac when he didn't. So, did Cortana give a similar ultimatum to Thel about Sanghelios?

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

...Is it? Like, I'm trying to think of any example that isn't Abby from TLOU2 and she's a maybe.

Or is it just we've stopped deciding that the only measure of a female form is it's function as eye candy?

That’s kinda implying that you can’t have both (strong female characters with
feminine features to match) which isn’t true.

How is feminine clothing in video games affecting real life? – GameAxis

Not to say every character needs to be designed like that of course, but there is certainly an increasing trend against it; mostly in the west.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

That’s kinda implying that you can’t have both (strong female characters with
feminine features to match) which isn’t true.

How is feminine clothing in video games affecting real life? – GameAxis

Not to say every character needs to be designed like that of course, but there is certainly an increasing trend against it; mostly in the west.

Okay, but...where is that happening? Like, Abby's just wearing a tank top. A perfectly normal piece of clothing that plenty of women wear.
Contrasted to Evie, who the poker site SEO mine masquerading as an article held up as a positive example?



I mean, objectively speaking Abby is running around in much skimpier clothes showing off way more of her assets

And that doesn't really address Part 2 of the question: is this happening on any sort of prolific level or is there really just a couple high profile examples?

 

[Jarrito3002]

40K continues to be a mistake.