Any hope for RPG's ?

[Kortney]

Never listen to the roaring minority. Seriously, for every person posting his or her disapproval of upcoming titles, there are bound many others who don't post, let alone go on forums to post about games.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yep. That's it. Same will happen with Dragon Age 2.

Same happened with Fallout 1 and 2 compared to 3 and New Vegas.

There is always a huge minority of whiners.

Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.

That doesn't change the fact they are whiners.

If I preferred silent films over the films of today, and started raging over internet forums repeatedly about how Chris Nolan is an idiot because Inception isn't silent I'd be called a whiner. Same thing with old school Fallout fans. I believe people should just get over it. Play older games if you prefer them. You wouldn't believe the amount of whiners I've seen on forums who insult Bethesda for making Fallout 3 a real time FPS. It's annoying. Really annoying.


It's a fact of life that certain things just die out. Fallout 1 and 2 wouldn't sell today. Gamers wouldn't find them as fun today. If you want to play top down turn based combat like Fallout 1 and 2, find an indie game that does it - or play older game. Don't demand a rework of the industry just because your tastes are old fashioned.

My favourite genre is film is dead. Is it upsetting? Yes. But I get over it and I don't go around whining about how modern movies that aren't old fashioned musicals in black and white suck donkey balls.

 

[Vault101]

My sarcasm sense is tingling...
And if it is correct, then the true meaning of this post is to rant about the crazy requests of RPG fans. Am I on the right track?

YOU SHOULD BE SERIOUS! ARGLE-BARGLE-DARGLE! PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE INDUSTRY! JARGLE! GAMES SHOULD ALWAYS BE EXACTLY WHAT I WANT BECAUSE I AM THE MOST PERFECTEST AND IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE WORLD OF GAMING AND IF THEY AREN'T IT'S NOT BECAUSE MY REQUIREMENTS ARE RETARDED IT'S BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS MADE OF GAY!

OT: Anyone bitching about RPGs is probably full of shit and, since too many fucking very different games are called RPGs, we can't really all get exactly what we want. I'm mostly just happy that I live in a world with BioWare. Your options are play or don't play. Vote with your wallet and, if enough people agree with you, the industy will change. If the game you so vehemently hate sells 10,000,000 copies, too bad.

I agree completley and I think Dragon age 2 will be good

 

[Continuity]

Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.

I don't want to pimp these guys out too much, but if you haven't come across them you should take a look at Iron tower and Doublebear. They have a couple of very nice looking RPGs nearing completion (indie and low budget of course).

Spoiler

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/

http://www.deadstate.doublebearproductions.com/about/

 

[Spectrum_Prez]

I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.

No they havn't

Well, it's more that I think the distinction between 'story-based RPGs' and 'adventure games' has always been very artificial. They're both about story and character. That's it. Whether you show character development systematically through leveling up or more informally through getting new weapons and abilities, it's all basically the same thing.

 

[mikespoff]

Because a DM have about 5 people he has to satisfy, a corporation can have millions. That makes it way harder to make sure that everyone is happy.

It doesn't really matter the scale of people you need to satisfy. There are many, MANY tricks to give the illusion of freedom/choice, while really offering none.

On top of that, the DM can actually see the players and react to them. The designer has to try to anticipate how the player will behave and preemptively write the story around his anticipated actions. Much harder.

I personally think that RPG developers are doing ok. With the current crop of Dragon Age and Mass Effect lines from Bioware, coupled with the Fallout 3 and New Vegas offerings, plus The Witcher 1 & 2 and now ElderScrolls V: Skyrim on the horizon, I think there are some great RPGs being made. Not all of them are quite to my taste, but that's ok too.

 

[infohippie]

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yeah, because more popular means a better game, every time, right? For that matter, American Idol and similar shows in other countries are much much better than, say, Firefly, right? I mean just look at the viewing figures, they don't lie! And Twilight is so much better a film than Let the Right One In, after all the ticket takings tell the whole story, right? And, well, Justin Bieber...
Remember, the vast majority of people don't have taste. Expanding anything niche to a larger audience will inevitably mean at least a little dumbing down.

Exactly How I feel and I have never been vocal about it until now due to the OP stating that everyone who feels that way is straight away some vocal idiot ranting like a fool proclaiming the end of the world in the middle of times square.
I was disgusted I couldnt go to tactical view in DAO2 like to the point that I was like... Do I even want to buy this?

Wait, what? I haven't been keeping up with DA2 news since I've been too busy reading about The Witcher 2 and Skyrim, but really? You can't go into tactical view in DA2? WTF are they thinking? I weep for Bioware's lost potential.

 

[kingcom]

That doesn't change the fact they are whiners.

If I preferred silent films over the films of today, and started raging over internet forums repeatedly about how Chris Nolan is an idiot because Inception isn't silent I'd be called a whiner. Same thing with old school Fallout fans. I believe people should just get over it. Play older games if you prefer them. You wouldn't believe the amount of whiners I've seen on forums who insult Bethesda for making Fallout 3 a real time FPS. It's annoying. Really annoying.

It's a fact of life that certain things just die out. Fallout 1 and 2 wouldn't sell today. Gamers wouldn't find them as fun today. If you want to play top down turn based combat like Fallout 1 and 2, find an indie game that does it - or play older game. Don't demand a rework of the industry just because your tastes are old fashioned.

My favourite genre is film is dead. Is it upsetting? Yes. But I get over it and I don't go around whining about how modern movies that aren't old fashioned musicals in black and white suck donkey balls.

Every single facet of human society contains an subsect of whiners, why is this particular group any different? Particularly when they are complaining in an environment that might actually help them. Their complaints might persuade developers to choose one decision over another (just as it works against them). These complaints actually do something, unlike your case study.

 

[jcw163]

To you OP I say, for the sake of your sanity, stay the hell away from the Bioware boards for a good few months.

Christ, you'd think Dragon Age 2 was a harbinger of the apocalypse

 

[kingcom]

Or theres just a bunch of people who know they will never get to see games made for them ever again? That every time they see the hope of the type of game they like appearing, its taken away? You know people have different tastes in games, the people who complain have different tastes to the people buying and not complaining.

I don't want to pimp these guys out too much, but if you haven't come across them you should take a look at Iron tower and Doublebear. They have a couple of very nice looking RPGs nearing completion (indie and low budget of course).

Spoiler

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/

http://www.deadstate.doublebearproductions.com/about/

Yea I know about deadstate, the game that seems remarkably similiar to the UFO:After series could be a bit of fun. Age of Decadence doesn't look particularly great though, most frustrating aspect of fallout 1 & 2 was the combat system (IMO) and that seems to be the core focus here. I don't know, ill give the demo a go.

 

[kingcom]

I simply fail to understand the criticism that ME2 is a dumbing down of ME, because Bioware games have always been half RPG, half adventure game.

No they havn't

Well, it's more that I think the distinction between 'story-based RPGs' and 'adventure games' has always been very artificial. They're both about story and character. That's it. Whether you show character development systematically through leveling up or more informally through getting new weapons and abilities, it's all basically the same thing.

Thats your definition I guess, though an RPG was once about roleplaying but that doesn't seem to matter as a definition anymore.

To you OP I say, for the sake of your sanity, stay the hell away from the Bioware boards for a good few months.

Christ, you'd think Dragon Age 2 was a harbinger of the apocalypse

No its just the signal that Bioware isn't going to make a certain type of game anymore.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Haha, OP you're funny. I remember when I was young and an idealist.

I dont see why an RPG has to be turn based. The ones I usually play are turn based, but I play alot of SMT games. I'm sure there are good non turn based rpgs.

Also, its kinda hard to give someone a true sandbox world. You need to have some structure. Even inFAMOUS made you have some kinda guiding rod.

Yeah, no. Voice acting isnt a requirement in RPGs and personally I enjoy the silent character more. I loved how Custom Robo for the Jesus box (gamecube) did it where everyone kinda spoke in this musical sorta things. IN fact, if a game ran more like an orchestra or symphany where every character gets a certain instrument, that would be awesome, as long as its appropriate.

Finally, and I can never say this enough. Game companies are businesses. They dont care about us, just our green. Which either suggests youre sarcastic or trolling.

 

[Irridium]

Threads like this don't usually do well because people don't see the satire/sarcasm.

That being said, RPG's these days aren't really RPG's. The term has been morphed so much and plastered on everything it could mean anything.

Pro-tip: Just because your game has stats, does not make it an RPG. At all.

 

[Zhukov]

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is an extremely noisy minority at work here.

For example, take a moment to observe all those people claiming that Bioware ruined Mass Effect forever with the changes in the sequel.

Now compare the sales figures and reviews of ME1 and ME2.

Yeah.

Yeah, because more popular means a better game, every time, right? For that matter, American Idol and similar shows in other countries are much much better than, say, Firefly, right? I mean just look at the viewing figures, they don't lie! And Twilight is so much better a film than Let the Right One In, after all the ticket takings tell the whole story, right? And, well, Justin Bieber...
Remember, the vast majority of people don't have taste. Expanding anything niche to a larger audience will inevitably mean at least a little dumbing down.

I say to you the same thing I said to the other guy:

"You are missing my point. I am not saying that ME1 is better then ME2 based on reviews and sales. That would be like saying the Twilight movies are better then Black Swan because they sold more tickets.

The OP was complaining about all the people complaining (ohh irony) about the new RPG releases.
I was pointing out that for every person whining on an internet forum, there are ten people having a good time playing the game.

That is all."

 

[hem dazon 90]

2) No railroading of any kind. I should have complete freedom to tackle only the challenges I want to face, and defeat those challenges in an almost infinite variety of ways. The computer should adjust to whatever strategy I choose to use. Oh, and adjust the rest of the world to show the consequence of whatever choice I made.

It's an RPG. Isn't solving problems your way the point?

 

[Kortney]

Every single facet of human society contains an subsect of whiners

Unfortunately yes. But the sub sect of whiners about Fallout are much louder than the sub sect of whiners who prefer cars without power steering.

why is this particular group any different?

They aren't. I never said they were. All whiners who harp on about how elements of the past were better annoys me.

Particularly when they are complaining in an environment that might actually help them. Their complaints might persuade developers to choose one decision over another (just as it works against them). These complaints actually do something, unlike your case study.

Sorry, but the gaming industry is just as likely to bring back top down turned based triple A titles as the movie industry is likely to bring back silent films. Both ain't gonna happen friendo. Why? $$$.

 

[Spectrum_Prez]

Thats your definition I guess, though an RPG was once about roleplaying but that doesn't seem to matter as a definition anymore.

That's exactly my point: the "role-playing" part of RPGs was always so poorly defined that it didn't ever have one coherent concept or gameplay goal attached to it.

Let me ask you, what is role-playing? Is it building your own character in a game? Is it trying to step into the shoes of a preset character? Is it trying to change the personality of a preset character over the course of a game? Is it trying to mold the character after you, the gamer? Is it trying to adopt a personality that is opposed to your natural inclinations?

That's one set of problems. Here's another: is your 'role' in gameplay function more important or your 'role' as a personality type? In other words, if you are a lawful evil rogue, is the rogue part more important, or the lawful evil?

If you have very strict answers for these questions, you start ending up with very obvious RPGs not fitting your new definition. Diablo has virtually no personality development, does that mean it isn't an RPG? JRPGs (and many WRPGs) don't let you create your own character, so are they now not RPGs?

What I'm getting at is that saying "RPGs are centrally about role-playing" is a completely useless cliche that doesn't define the genre and doesn't help us push gaming innovation in good directions. Definitions are never right or wrong, they are only ever more or less useful.

So coming back around, I'm saying that Bioware games have always been half-adventure games because they readily accepted the 'RPG' label but were more concerned with story than with any other aspect of the gameplay experience. Eventually, Bioware found that classicaly 'RPG'ish mechanics were holding them back and so they ditched a few. It's an obvious evolution, not a revolution, and certainly some type of betrayal.

 

[kingcom]

Every single facet of human society contains an subsect of whiners

Unfortunately yes. But the sub sect of whiners about Fallout are much louder than the sub sect of whiners who prefer cars without power steering.

why is this particular group any different?

They aren't. I never said they were. All whiners who harp on about how elements of the past were better annoys me.

Particularly when they are complaining in an environment that might actually help them. Their complaints might persuade developers to choose one decision over another (just as it works against them). These complaints actually do something, unlike your case study.

Sorry, but the gaming industry is just as likely to bring back top down turned based triple A titles as the movie industry is likely to bring back silent films. Both ain't gonna happen friendo. Why? $$$.

Someone JUST LINKED ME two examples of the game, probably from the result of people talking about the idea.

 

[Kortney]

Every single facet of human society contains an subsect of whiners

Unfortunately yes. But the sub sect of whiners about Fallout are much louder than the sub sect of whiners who prefer cars without power steering.

why is this particular group any different?

They aren't. I never said they were. All whiners who harp on about how elements of the past were better annoys me.

Particularly when they are complaining in an environment that might actually help them. Their complaints might persuade developers to choose one decision over another (just as it works against them). These complaints actually do something, unlike your case study.

Sorry, but the gaming industry is just as likely to bring back top down turned based triple A titles as the movie industry is likely to bring back silent films. Both ain't gonna happen friendo. Why? $$$.

Someone JUST LINKED ME two examples of the game, probably from the result of people talking about the idea.

And someone could JUST LINKED ME two examples of modern day silent films too. Doesn't change the fact both are being made to please a niche market and will never see serious financial success.

 

[mireko]

I am impressed that everybody is playing along with the joke by acting like the OP was serious.

[sub]I mean, you are doing that, right?[/sub]

 

[conflictofinterests]

I've been reading the forums at a variety of gaming sites every time a new, big budget RPG comes it. Every time, it gets slammed, usually before the trailer even comes out. Reading through the posts, it seems that the RPG community has a few simple requests in a game that the current producers illogically refuse to meet.

1) It has to have turn based combat. Anything even close to "twitch" is a travesty. Oh, but the combat should be so fun I can do it for hours at a time and not feel bored or like I'm grinding.

2) No railroading of any kind. I should have complete freedom to tackle only the challenges I want to face, and defeat those challenges in an almost infinite variety of ways. The computer should adjust to whatever strategy I choose to use. Oh, and adjust the rest of the world to show the consequence of whatever choice I made.

3)Despite that, the game should have an amazing story, as funny as Terry Pratchet, as exciting and original as Jim Butcher and as epic as JRR Tolkien. And that story should flow through the main quest and every side quest, each also being totally original, logical and fit the setting like a glove. Completely voice acted of course.

Yet do they listen to us? No! They keep making lousy game that do NONE of the above! Damn money grubbing video game industry! They'll never get it right!

SQUEE, Jim Butcher is my favorite writer!

Anyways, as long as the games don't make me angry, I'm generally perfectly content, if not happy with them. Games make me angry when I can't complete a task before the demerit (death scene, or whatever else it may be) of not completing the task this time around drives me up the wall. While I do succumb to the occasional "Gosh, it sure would be nifty if I could break down this lattice between me and my beloved shiny object with my phallic compensation sword," and "Gosh, it sure would be nifty if I could talk the demons to death as opposed to bashing their heads in," I'm perfectly content to leave those in the "Gosh, it sure would be nifty" format as opposed to "If they don't do this, I will be very angry" format.

Edit: Also, "Gosh, it sure would be nifty if my game didn't consistently crash every time I did this thing I ought to be able to do"