Anyone else finally getting sick of the unrelenting grimdarkness of GoT?

[Glongpre]

The show is a disgrace.

I watched a little of season 6 episode 3 and wow...

Spoiler

They fucking kill Rickon's wolf and capture him??!! Wtf, he has been MIA for so long and this is how they bring him back, you have got to be kidding.

The show just seems to create their own threads for no reason. Hello, there are already storylines that make sense.

Changing storylines to fit into a movie is one thing (i.e. LOTR), but when you have a TV series, there is absolutely no reason to change storylines. You have an hour each episode, and 8 episodes so 8 hours of time to create character growth, follow storylines so they make sense and to tell the story faithfully.

There is no reason you cannot create a faithful adaptation with so much time, except incompetence.

The GOT tv show has officially turned into a soap opera. Next week, we find out Sam has been having an affair with a Dornish midwife, but Gilly still loves him and wants it to work out.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

You can say that 'grimdark' is Game of Thrones 'thing' until you're blue in the face, but the quality of those 'grimdark' moments is still up for discussion. Character assassination, corner cutting and simplifying aside, the tv series has been pretty faithful to matching the darkest moments in the books [...]

They really haven't. The burning of Shireen, the rape of Sansa, turning Jaime and Cersei's liaison at Joffrey's funeral into a rape, all of this was not present in the books, and they're major points of contention.

I never contested that they hadn't added unnecessary bullshit. As I go on to say in my previous post that with Season 5 being such a non-event - because for some reason they'd chosen to omit some pretty important characters and story arcs without having the foresight to plan for their absence. What I was actually trying to say was that for the first four seasons they faithfully recreated things like the Eddard's execution, the Red Wedding, Renly's assassination etc.

Though I'll always be salty about their portrayal of Robb, marrying for love rather than to uphold his honour.

 

[Cowabungaa]

snip

I beg to differ, I believe that the rape-by-Ramsey moment was the epitome of suckage of her whole subplot. It also dragged Reek into it, denying him spotlight time, and through that devalued both characters. Why? Two reasons, mostly. One; it took agency away from Sansa. She was just starting to grow, becoming savvy and weathered during her time in the Aerie. They even visually symbolized it when she completed that black, feathered dress. Aaaand then she becomes a puppet once more. Two; it's retreading something she already went through. This is the second time she fell into the hands of a psychopath who turns her into his plaything. The second time she's reduced to a scared little girl.

In the books she does start out as a vapid teenager, yes, but she doesn't stay that at all. She goes through the same growth as she does in the show. The books simply don't take it away from her all of a sudden and dump her with Joffrey 2.0 to have her tortured once more. The show was pointlessly cruel with her in season 5 and gave her nothing in return. Season 6 is looking to fix that a little, going by episode 2, and I'm definitely looking forward to that.

Reek deserved better too. He is p.o.v chapters were really cool in the books. But in the show they didn't want to put him in the front row and had Sansa take that so we could see her get tormented again. We only got to see Reek really develop in that season through Sansa. That was a real shame.

I watched a little of season 6 episode 3 and wow...

Spoiler

They fucking kill Rickon's wolf and capture him??!! Wtf, he has been MIA for so long and this is how they bring him back, you have got to be kidding.

I really think it was a great episode, but I'll give that that was definitely the lowest point of the episode. That shit turned up suddenly like a reverse deus ex machina. A daemon ex machina maybe? Regardless, it was way too random and sudden. I mean sure it was a long time coming, but build up a little at it sheesh. Of course it's hard to use that as an example of it being an unfaithful adaptation, seeing as we've moved past the books by now. Who knows how the books would've handled that.

 

[2HF]

It's game of freakin thrones. You want them to stop what they're doing and have a random episode where everything is conveyed via breaking into song and dance?

It's a shitty world they live in, it's gonna come across as shitty.

 

[rcs619]

I beg to differ, I believe that the rape-by-Ramsey moment was the epitome of suckage of her whole subplot. It also dragged Reek into it, denying him spotlight time, and through that devalued both characters. Why? Two reasons, mostly. One; it took agency away from Sansa. She was just starting to grow, becoming savvy and weathered during her time in the Aerie. They even visually symbolized it when she completed that black, feathered dress. Aaaand then she becomes a puppet once more.

See, I think it was a great moment for her character. She finally thought she had things figured out. She had confidence, she thought she had some control over her world. Hell, she even thought she was going to be able to manipulate Ramsey at first. Then, it all gets ripped away from her and she realizes that she's not in control. She could either give up and become Ramsey's victim/plaything, or she could try to get the hell out of there by physical escape or death. Sansa chose to try and escape the abuse, which I think says a lot of interesting things about her character in the show.

It also helped push Reek over the tipping point back into being Theon. All that sadism and torture wasn't enough to completely break the feelings he had for a girl he'd known since they were both children.

Two; it's retreading something she already went through. This is the second time she fell into the hands of a psychopath who turns her into his plaything. The second time she's reduced to a scared little girl.

Yeah, but this is the first time she actually truly suffers though. Joffery was emotionally abusive, and she got beat up a couple times, but the Lannisters mostly treated her with kid-gloves because she was politically useful. Someone always stepped in to pull her ass out of the fire in King's Landing. With Ramsey though, that was never going to happen. Hell, he might just kill her out of hand for fun one day. She either had to give in, or get out, and she chose the latter.

Book Sansa would have just waited there like an idiot until someone rescued her, or another faction kidnapped her to be a piece of political leverage.

 

[Glongpre]

I watched a little of season 6 episode 3 and wow...

Spoiler

They fucking kill Rickon's wolf and capture him??!! Wtf, he has been MIA for so long and this is how they bring him back, you have got to be kidding.

I really think it was a great episode, but I'll give that that was definitely the lowest point of the episode. That shit turned up suddenly like a reverse deus ex machina. A daemon ex machina maybe? Regardless, it was way too random and sudden. I mean sure it was a long time coming, but build up a little at it sheesh. Of course it's hard to use that as an example of it being an unfaithful adaptation, seeing as we've moved past the books by now. Who knows how the books would've handled that.

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM actually does that. But with how the show is unfolding it just seems to be cruelty for cruelties sake.

And that wasn't really connected to my adaptation point. That was me just venting

Book Sansa would have just waited there like an idiot until someone rescued her, or another faction kidnapped her to be a piece of political leverage.

Or you know, be miles away in the Vale with Littlefinger, learning to scheme.

 

[balladbird]

Changing storylines to fit into a movie is one thing (i.e. LOTR), but when you have a TV series, there is absolutely no reason to change storylines. You have an hour each episode, and 8 episodes so 8 hours of time to create character growth, follow storylines so they make sense and to tell the story faithfully.

Ehh, this assertion is a bit unfair. Changes HAVE to happen when a medium changes. it's part of the logistics of the different medium. Yeah, with 7 seasons of 10, 1 hour episodes, you have 70 hours to tell your story (which, I would argue, if you're going for 100% faith to source material isn't *nearly* long enough), but you also have to factor in things like maintaining a cast. Every single character portrayed in a book requires an actor, and if you wanted to include every last minor character featured in a book, you would need to consistently cast the same actor in each role, and have them commited to that role for years upon years, hoping and praying that work arrangements or (for older characters) the mortality of the actor doesn't muck things up.


Also, each character in a book is just a few lines of text. A character can be brought up in book one, then left to rest until book five with no major effort. If you do that with live action, you have to factor in the fact that five years have passed between when you first used that actor and when you brought them back, which can futz with the timeline of the work if they changed more in that time than they were meant to in the books.

Granted, I know I'm being a bit pedantic here. I know what you mean, and I agree with you for the most part. There have been a lot of stupid changes that only served to make the plot more muddled for the sake of creating cheap drama. I just wanted to point out that there are also a lot of changes that, while I don't like them, I can at least understand them from a pragmatic point of view.

Things like cutting a certain other claimant to the throne out of the story, and basically fusing his role with someone else, streamlining dorne (though they could have done it waaaaaaaaaaay better), simplifying the resolution of Stannis' storyline for the sake of reducing the character total (though I hate them for the way they handled that, too). I dunno. I'm rambling. I feel like I had a point when I quoted you and posted this, I swear.

 

[Glongpre]

snip

I understand that some changes have to be made.

But when you change Robb from choosing the "honorable" thing of marrying the girl he knocked up, to falling in love with some random princess who happens to be a field medic for absolutely no reason. That shit works me up.

Or giving someone a ton of screentime (Shea), when you could give that screentime to more important events.

Or removing POV characters.

"There have been a lot of stupid changes that only served to make the plot more muddled for the sake of creating cheap drama"
^^^This, this is what I hate. It has a profound effect on proceeding events, especially in a story like ASOIAF, where events are so interconnected.

 

[Superbeast]

The show is a disgrace.

I watched a little of season 6 episode 3 and wow...

Spoiler

They fucking kill Rickon's wolf and capture him??!! Wtf, he has been MIA for so long and this is how they bring him back, you have got to be kidding.

There's a fan theory about that.

Spoiler

The Umbers have been almost fanatically loyal to the Starks. Smalljohn refused to swear an oath of loyalty - and "your father was a ****" isn't the best excuse in a world like Westeros. The head that is supposedly Shaggydog is a bit small - when we saw Greywind's head sewn onto Robb's body the head was far larger, and so is Ghost's. Also, if he hates Wildlings so much why is Osha alive? Therefore people are speculating that it is all some sort of pro-Stark plot, perhaps that with Rickon alive and visible to the people of Winterfel and them knowing what a "mad dog" Ramsay is, it will build momentum to overthrow the Boltons, with the support of Umber's men.

It could be complete bullshit of course, but it is an interesting one to ponder. The way it has been presented in the show is something that GRR Martin/the shows writers would do in the name of grim-dark.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The answer is... sort of. There are two major problems. The first is that, when you kill major characters so routinely, you stop caring. Most of the original cast is dead, and they were the reason you were invested.

Here is a list of all the POV characters from A Song of Ice and Fire. barring one-offs.

MAJOR

Eddard Stark
Catelyn Stark
Daenerys Targaryen
Tyrion Lannister
Jon Snow
Bran Stark
Sansa Stark
Arya Stark
Theon Greyjoy
Davos Seaworth
Jaime Lannister
Samwell Tarly
Cersei Lannister
Brienne of Tarth

MINOR

Aeron Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Arianne Martell
Asha Greyjoy
Areo Hotah
Arys Oakheart
Quentyn Martell
Barristan Selmy
Jon Connington
Melisandre

Through five novels, exactly one major and two minor characters from those POV chapters have died. A large number of tertiary characters have also died, and I'm uncertain if you are expanding your argument to including the likes of Lommy or Old Nan.

When new characters arrive, the question isn't if they'll die, it's when they'll die. Eventually you're left with little reason to care about the outcome of the story. It's the same reason Walking Dead has become a slog.

As demonstrated above, this is frankly nonsense. I don't care a whit if people find the show or the books too dark or too harsh, that's their lookout. And lord knows the show has undergone SHOCKING quality decline. However, neither the show nor the books "kill off all the characters". The books have a cast of thousands, and the vast majority of named characters are actually still alive. Indeed, given the realm is being consumed by a multitude of wars, a return of sorcery, an otherworldly assault in the North, betrayals on every front, a brutal and capricious winter, plagues, famine, etc, etc, etc, the death toll among primary characters is positively conservative. GREY'S ANATOMY has a higher death toll of primary characters.

The second, possibly bigger issue, is the pacing.

Without question this is a problem, yes. There's a reason for the problem that makes a fair amount of sense, but it doesn't make it any less of a problem, or any less irritating.

As to the show, they fucked their own pacing due to showrunner incompetence. They had a chance to remedy what George bungled, and instead bungled it far worse.

Ehh, this assertion is a bit unfair. Changes HAVE to happen when a medium changes.

Oh absolutely. I consider Game of Thrones in its "proper" form to be fundamentally unfilmable. Unfilmable. An impossible task. That they not only made a functional television show for several seasons, let alone a wildly popular one, is a monumental achievement. I doff my hat to them, I seriously do.

Alas, at some point they got drunk off their own press and starting making creative flourishes of their own. These ranged from accidentally good...say, Arya and Tywin...which succeeded because Charles Dance was spectacular and owned the screen...to atrocious...such as "Talissa the Needless Deviation", or Karl the Fookin' Legend, or the deconstruction of Stannis, or pretty much anything from Season 5. They can't write. When the show just runs book dialogue word for word, it shines. When it tries to be original, it trips over and breaks its tiny dick. Even die-hard show fans can tell something is "off" all of a sudden, because the dialogue became abruptly anachronistic.

 

[Xerosch]

Nope, not sick of it at all. I think surpassing the books really benefits the sixth season so far. I feel there were more developments in the three episodes so far than in the entire fifth season.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

The thing is the show sorta-kinda gets a free pass in many regards since ultimately it is based on ASoIaF book series. Any criticisms have to consider that much of the plot is GRRM's and not controllable by the show runners.

But all things considered, the show is not perfect. It is good drama, but I've always thought it quite low brow. At it's core, GRRM made multiple kingdoms, he gave each one a great House with a symbol and "words", smaller houses to be their bannermen, then just made each one hate another in a never-ending cycle that could go on for eternity (and at this point feels like it has).

There are so many plot lines going on, most of which aren't particularly exciting, and then this season they introduce yet another one. Yes yes the Greyjoys were in Book 5, but who gives a damn? Dorne? Fuck Dorne. Dany's storyline was interesting for 1-2 seasons, but after 6 years she is still on her own, doing the same bloody thing and has ZERO impact on the wider world. That entire storyline could be removed and the show/world would be no different.

If you remove everything from seasons 3-5, just move some key events around, BOOM, you have a tighter show with less nonsense and an overarching story that makes more sense. It is a little depressing when there are no good people in the entire show, just varying degrees of horrible, but that's the lure for most people, the so-called "grey" morality (I don't think it's grey tho, they're all bastards). Anyway, there are only 17 episodes left following "Oathbreaker" till the show's and story's conclusion. Events are FINALLY happening now after 3 years of interesting enough drama but very little actual story and they mus continue to happen at a very fast pace now. 17 episodes is all that's left to finish the entire thing.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

snip

I beg to differ, I believe that the rape-by-Ramsey moment was the epitome of suckage of her whole subplot. It also dragged Reek into it, denying him spotlight time, and through that devalued both characters. Why? Two reasons, mostly. One; it took agency away from Sansa. She was just starting to grow, becoming savvy and weathered during her time in the Aerie. They even visually symbolized it when she completed that black, feathered dress. Aaaand then she becomes a puppet once more. Two; it's retreading something she already went through. This is the second time she fell into the hands of a psychopath who turns her into his plaything. The second time she's reduced to a scared little girl.

In the books she does start out as a vapid teenager, yes, but she doesn't stay that at all. She goes through the same growth as she does in the show. The books simply don't take it away from her all of a sudden and dump her with Joffrey 2.0 to have her tortured once more. The show was pointlessly cruel with her in season 5 and gave her nothing in return. Season 6 is looking to fix that a little, going by episode 2, and I'm definitely looking forward to that.

Reek deserved better too. He is p.o.v chapters were really cool in the books. But in the show they didn't want to put him in the front row and had Sansa take that so we could see her get tormented again. We only got to see Reek really develop in that season through Sansa. That was a real shame.

I watched a little of season 6 episode 3 and wow...

Spoiler

They fucking kill Rickon's wolf and capture him??!! Wtf, he has been MIA for so long and this is how they bring him back, you have got to be kidding.

I really think it was a great episode, but I'll give that that was definitely the lowest point of the episode. That shit turned up suddenly like a reverse deus ex machina. A daemon ex machina maybe? Regardless, it was way too random and sudden. I mean sure it was a long time coming, but build up a little at it sheesh. Of course it's hard to use that as an example of it being an unfaithful adaptation, seeing as we've moved past the books by now. Who knows how the books would've handled that.

Just for your reference, the opposite of a deus ex machina would probably be a diabolus ex machina.

OT: I don't mind dark stuff, but a quote I found on TV Tropes managed to let me put a finger on why the show bothered me so much more than the books. "In many fantasy books, the fates cheat in favor of the heroes. In ASOIAF, the fates sit it out. In the show, the fates cheat in favor of the villains."

That sums it up to me. I don't mind having the heroes stumble, or come across unforeseen consequences, but it gets quite frustrating when it seems it ONLY happens to the heroes. Yes, the villains have had bad ends sometimes, but it's usually because they picked up the Idiot Ball and played hacky-sack with it (Tywin, Roose). If Arya Stark walked into a fight with a pair of daggers, completely nude, against 2 dozen attackers, do you really think it would end as well for her as it did for Ramsay?

 

[Dragonlayer]

I'm seriously hoping there's an elaborate bluff going on by the Umbers at the moment, because Stark suffering has now left behind "Tragic tale of heroes too moral to take practical measures in a harsh world" and reached "Comical farce about the unending shower of shit the universe will gleefully dump on one family". Don't get me wrong, I'm still watching the show because I'm bloody well invested in it now, and also actually really enjoy it - despite certain serpent related flaws - and I do enjoy me some grimdark, but fucking hell, you have to pace that stuff!

The show is a disgrace.

I watched a little of season 6 episode 3 and wow...

Spoiler

They fucking kill Rickon's wolf and capture him??!! Wtf, he has been MIA for so long and this is how they bring him back, you have got to be kidding.

There's a fan theory about that.

Spoiler

The Umbers have been almost fanatically loyal to the Starks. Smalljohn refused to swear an oath of loyalty - and "your father was a ****" isn't the best excuse in a world like Westeros. The head that is supposedly Shaggydog is a bit small - when we saw Greywind's head sewn onto Robb's body the head was far larger, and so is Ghost's. Also, if he hates Wildlings so much why is Osha alive? Therefore people are speculating that it is all some sort of pro-Stark plot, perhaps that with Rickon alive and visible to the people of Winterfel and them knowing what a "mad dog" Ramsay is, it will build momentum to overthrow the Boltons, with the support of Umber's men.

It could be complete bullshit of course, but it is an interesting one to ponder. The way it has been presented in the show is something that GRR Martin/the shows writers would do in the name of grim-dark.

God I fucking hope so, because thus far the much vaunted Northern loyalty to the Starks of the books has been translated into a single old maid who gets flayed alive after doing nothing useful.

 

[Frostbyte666]

Sorry lost interest in the show since the red wedding, yeah grimdark is fine up to a certain point but I want to enjoy myself not be constantly depressed over villians winning. I'm pretty much just rooting for the white walkers to curb stomp everyone.

It doesn't help that shows can drive me into a frothing rage when the villain doesn't get a a well deserved death after something monstrous, but then make up for it a few episodes (not seasons like in GoT and even then it's no guarantee) later and it's oh so satisfying. Pyscho Pass springs to mind for that.

And this Friday I'm round to a mates for Game of Thrones night...after the OP with the noose.

 

[Mangod]

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF GOT THERE IS ONLY RAPE.

Sorry, had to make that joke. Anyways I read the books but haven't watched the series though I keep track of what's happening, like others said it's bad/TV (same) writers.

Funnily enough, I'd argue that WH40k manages to be somehow less GrimDark than GoT right now, because it actually has a sense of humour associated with it still. Gallows humour, yes, but still humour, and a sense of defiance.

Westeros is being attacked by Snow Zombies/Jotun? Let's all rob/rape/kill each other (not necessarily in that order)!

The Imperium of Man is doomed to fall, beset from all sides by Aliens, and from within by Traitors and Heretics?

Spoiler: The Imperium of Man in a nutshell

 

[Terminal Marque]

No, in the same way that I don't start to get tired of the relentlessly comedic tone of a COMEDY.

smh

 

[McMarbles]

I'm sick of unrelenting grimdarkness in general. There's a reason why I abandoned GOT and TWD after one season of each.