App Store Pulling Games That Include the Confederate Flag - UPDATE

Something Amyss

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MarsAtlas said:
Supposedly Hilary Clinton, but when I checked that I couldn't find her calling for an actual ban. She said that it "shouldn't" be flown anywhere, but that would can be interpreted in multiple ways, like "it shouldn't in an ideal world" or "it shouldn't be allowed".
Basically what I expected to find.

But given the next poster here, I've got a second question:

Do you feel I've called you a Nazi? I'd like to clarify this because, according to Vanilla Knight, I've indicate that everyone who disagrees with Apple's move is a Nazi.

Vanilla_Knight said:
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with your first post, but now it seems I can see what you truly are with your outrageous over-generalizations of the arguments being made and even the zealous implication that people who see this as a ridiculous move are "Confederate flag lovers" and by attribution you made, racists and Nazis.
Oh, we're off to a lovely start here.

If you have to change what I said to decide what I really am, you're not deciding what I really am.

It is self-evident to any reasonable person who has been reading this thread that most people here do not advocate racism or even have a distinct 'love' of the confederate flag.
Then any reasonable person can infer that I was not speaking to them specifically. However, I somehow doubt if we were to make a list of people, the people you claim are "self-evident" would all be excluded. In part because one of the patterns I've noticed on this site is that certain people are "free market" with Apple unless very specific things happen. If Apple decides to pull Nazi iconography, it's censorship. If they decide to pull the rebel rag, it's censorship. Almost anything that's not a symbol of hatred? "free market!!!!!"

But I would suggest behaving reasonably before you dictate what reasonable people would do.

You're also bringing completely irrelevant points of politics up in a thread about one particular issue. The books that stupid conservatives want to be taught are not in any way relevant to Apple's decision whatsoever.
I didn't bring that up. I responded to MarsAtlas, who responded to someone else (I forget who) who was talking about this being a slippery slope from the iTunes store to the history books. MarsAtlas made a point about actual historical revisionism, and I followd up on her point.

Get your facts straight before you chastise them.

I'm quite glad that the forum, as you said, has changed in tone.
See, the tone change I'm referencing is hypocrisy in action. Are you really glad that a bunch of Escapists have behaved hypocritically by supporting the flag? I doubt it. So don't claim otherwise.

It is quite apparent that social justice like yours is petulant and destructive.
Social Justice like mine? I'm confused. This has nothing to do with social justice. I've addressed the facts and history here. I have not spoken even to what "should" be that I remember.

I somehow doubt you mean my belief that women are people, gays should marry, or anything of the sort, so why are you bringing social justice into this?

You would sooner passive-aggressively call everyone a Nazis because they disagree with Germany's laws on Nazis memorabilia than you would to take the time to read someone's actual thoughts on the matter.
Considering you made a bunch of spurious accusations rather than bothering to read my thoughts on the matter? That's an odd statement to make there.

But, you see, I didn't call everyone a "Nazis" because they disagree with Germany's laws. I don't think I even brought up Germany's laws, and I'm pretty sure I haven't said my opinion on them. I referenced a bunch of supposedly free-market folks who are for "censorship" when it benefits them and against it when it removes something "offensive." And your use of "social justice" makes me think you are A. one of these people and B. really bothered by my post for that reason, rather than the claims you're making which are not in line with reality.

And whether you are one of those people or not, I do seriously wonder why there are folks on here who ordinarily agree with Apple's store restrictions but have a tantrum when it's specifically Nazi iconography (because this actually happened) or the KKK flag. Because I'm not even going to pretend this was the Confederate flag. This is not the same as calling them Nazis, sorry. And I think it's a legit question: why do people not seem to care about their "censorship" policies normally, but get into a tizzy over this flag? That would indicate to me that something else is going on. Or that the concern is...less than sincere.
 

mew4ever23

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This is getting a bit silly. Yes, I realize that the confederate flag is mainly associated with racist agendas due largely to the KKK adopting it, but still.. really? It's a battle standard that several confederate generals DID use, and it IS a part of civil war history, whether people like it or not.

It might be better to take a stab at the underlying issues that cause events like these, and other racial inequalities. And as I've said for years - America needs to strike amendment #2, or at the least enact some tougher gun control - The right to bare arms is clearly not being exercised in a safe manner, and hasn't been for a very long time now.
 

Gorrath

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mew4ever23 said:
This is getting a bit silly. Yes, I realize that the confederate flag is mainly associated with racist agendas due largely to the KKK adopting it, but still.. really? It's a battle standard that several confederate generals DID use, and it IS a part of civil war history, whether people like it or not.

It might be better to take a stab at the underlying issues that cause events like these, and other racial inequalities. And as I've said for years - America needs to strike amendment #2, or at the least enact some tougher gun control - The right to bare arms is clearly not being exercised in a safe manner, and hasn't been for a very long time now.
You are right in your estimation that people do not exercise safe gun ownership. Nor do they exercise safe car ownership, safe speech, safe religion, or safe anything else. The government is tasked with helping keep us safe and the rights amendments keep the government from going too far in that effort. Thankfully we do have laws against doing many unsafe things.
 

Pyrian

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frizzlebyte said:
Pyrian said:
Private companies deciding what symbols they, themselves want to sell is in no way comparable to government mandated censorship. Nor is government entities deciding what symbols they want to display on government property comparable to government mandated censorship of private citizens.

Nobody is making it illegal to make and display your very own confederate flag.
See, this is the kind of mentality I simply don't understand. Okay, so let's say that I want to own "my very own Confederate flag."

If I can't find a retailer that sells one, either because of self-censorship (Amazon, Ebay, Apple) or because reactionary doofuses (doofusi?) armed with Facebook accounts and inflated egos will ***** and whine until they stop selling them, how is that functionally *any* different from simply banning the flag at the state or federal level?
Well, you could get a white sheet and some dyes and a few hours of your own time. Or, you could order it from the substantial number of smaller outfits that still sell it and are indeed rejoicing in the sudden windfall. Sheesh. It's not even a big deal.

frizzlebyte said:
Lack of freedom can come just as easily from corporate and popular tyranny as from state tyranny.
Look, I'm sympathetic to that view, although I disagree with "just as easily". Industry standards and non-negotiable boiler plate contracts can be almost as powerful as regulations, sure.

But this? This isn't like that at all.
 

Atmos Duality

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To surrender peace of mind to a symbol, regardless of how it's portrayed, is a hallmark of cowardice.
Learn from your mistakes, or be doomed to repeat them in the future.
 

Something Amyss

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Pyrian said:
Well, you could get a white sheet and some dyes and a few hours of your own time..
It seems like it's unthinkable that one group of people would be asked to do that, though.
 

Callate

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It's pretty clear that Apple didn't do the due diligence to determine if the flag in these apps was used in a "offensive and mean-spirited way"; only that it was present. Shame on them.
 

RaikuFA

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Recusant said:
RaikuFA said:
gigastar said:
Why are they still not adressing the core problems?
Because the core problem is the NRA. You know, the guys with guns that use them to intimitate people into scapegoating others?
No. The core problem is someone deciding to pick a gun and shoot people, then picking up a gun and shooting people.
-Take away the guns and they'll use bombs (like the Tsarnaevs) or pathogens (like the anthrax attackers), or some other means of murder.
-Establish better mental health facilities and the violently insane won't feel any compulsion to use them; they'll probably figure they were set up by the government to control the masses, or some such nonsense.

Better gun laws and better medical care availability can help- they can reduce the number of attacks, and sometimes mitigate the damage done. But ultimately, the core problem is people deciding to do these horrible things. It's terrifying to admit, and it can't be stopped, and the fear prompts people to assume "if we just do X, this will never happen again". But it's not the guns or the madness that's pulling the trigger. It's will, pure and simple.
True. I do agree the whole mental health care system needs work. But we do need better gun laws and the NRA probably won't allow that to happen.
 

vallorn

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I really only have one reaction to this. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. So removing a flag, a symbol of history with various meanings from art or the like is inherently wrong. I agree that it really should not be on state buildings (Unless they fly it during an anniversary of a battle or something) but war memorials, art, and the like are places where it should allowed to be kept flying. It's a Battle Flag after all so it's only right that it flies at old war memorials for soldiers who fought under it. I'd say the same for any war memorial even those of the nazis, the dead deserve some recognition and respect and we should not forget the old wars, forgive, sure, but not forget, because when we forget history like that we lose a part of ourselves.

Note, I'm raised British so I think Americans are incredibly silly when it comes to race (No, not just white americans, all skin colours) and that everyone seems to be making a big fuss over fuck all that leads to stupidity like banning an old flag rather than actually solving any problems. Get up off your bums and do something. The British did, they exported the banning of the slave trade by blockading the entirety of West Africa against slave ships and then abolished it in most other areas, so why can't Americans get off their asses and actually deal with their problems rather than wanting to ban things and making unnecessary fuss about nothing?

Oh, and this seems like a perfect example of corporate censorship. It's not the government banning things sure but this is still a tyranny in action when it comes to banning access to things.
 

Vanilla_Knight

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PH3NOmenon said:
Forcing children to recite oaths to their country wasn't enough. Now you have to ban the flag of your historic opponent and darker side of your history from being seen in public?

America is scary.
Most people don't know this because you're never taught about the court cases, but you aren't legally required to say the pledge of allegiance in school (nor can be punished in any way for abstaining). You don't even have to stand. I stopped doing it in high school.
 

Something Amyss

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vallorn said:
I really only have one reaction to this. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. So removing a flag, a symbol of history with various meanings from art or the like is inherently wrong. I agree that it really should not be on state buildings (Unless they fly it during an anniversary of a battle or something) but war memorials, art, and the like are places where it should allowed to be kept flying. It's a Battle Flag after all so it's only right that it flies at old war memorials for soldiers who fought under it. I'd say the same for any war memorial even those of the nazis, the dead deserve some recognition and respect and we should not forget the old wars, forgive, sure, but not forget, because when we forget history like that we lose a part of ourselves.

Note, I'm raised British so I think Americans are incredibly silly when it comes to race (No, not just white americans, all skin colours) and that everyone seems to be making a big fuss over fuck all that leads to stupidity like banning an old flag rather than actually solving any problems. Get up off your bums and do something. The British did, they exported the banning of the slave trade by blockading the entirety of West Africa against slave ships and then abolished it in most other areas, so why can't Americans get off their asses and actually deal with their problems rather than wanting to ban things and making unnecessary fuss about nothing?

Oh, and this seems like a perfect example of corporate censorship. It's not the government banning things sure but this is still a tyranny in action when it comes to banning access to things.
Should Apple be required to give people a platform to say anything they want?
 

vallorn

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Zachary Amaranth said:
vallorn said:
I really only have one reaction to this. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. So removing a flag, a symbol of history with various meanings from art or the like is inherently wrong. I agree that it really should not be on state buildings (Unless they fly it during an anniversary of a battle or something) but war memorials, art, and the like are places where it should allowed to be kept flying. It's a Battle Flag after all so it's only right that it flies at old war memorials for soldiers who fought under it. I'd say the same for any war memorial even those of the nazis, the dead deserve some recognition and respect and we should not forget the old wars, forgive, sure, but not forget, because when we forget history like that we lose a part of ourselves.

Note, I'm raised British so I think Americans are incredibly silly when it comes to race (No, not just white americans, all skin colours) and that everyone seems to be making a big fuss over fuck all that leads to stupidity like banning an old flag rather than actually solving any problems. Get up off your bums and do something. The British did, they exported the banning of the slave trade by blockading the entirety of West Africa against slave ships and then abolished it in most other areas, so why can't Americans get off their asses and actually deal with their problems rather than wanting to ban things and making unnecessary fuss about nothing?

Oh, and this seems like a perfect example of corporate censorship. It's not the government banning things sure but this is still a tyranny in action when it comes to banning access to things.
Should Apple be required to give people a platform to say anything they want?
No but being a monopoly over their app store they have the power to shut people up and that's something that should be regarded with suspicion. Sure it's the confederate flag now but what if they banned the LGBT flag to avoid offending religious sensibilities? They have the right to do so but banning things and silencing people is not something to be taken lightly. What if Google or Yahoo stopped certain links to things from appearing on searches? They certainly have the right to do so as private businesses but it would still be a bad thing.
 

Nailzzz

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This must be a result of the backlash from all of these incidents of flags killing people I keep hearing about. It's odd because every time I see a flag, all it's doing is fluttering in the wind. I can't imagine flags being responsible for so much death, but maybe there simply lulling me into a false sense of security around them. Someday perhaps I will turn around and one will finally walk up and stab me in the chest. I'm onto you flags.
 

Lee Quitt

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[/quote]The confederate flag represents people who want to own slaves. If hating anything to do with that flag, makes me the P.C police, then give me a P.C.P.D (Political Correctness Police Department) badge, gun, and squad car.[/quote]

You should probably do some reading on the civil war... or just watch the Ken Burns documentary series, as your statment bleeds ignorance.
 

Calbeck

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Apple seems to be coming to their senses, but my biggest disgust so far is reserved for those people who leapt to defend corporate freedoms as the ONLY concern involved.

Ban Civil War games? It's just business! There is absolutely nothing else to say because it all goes right down to a company's right to do business and this trumps any and all other concerns.

Well, good. Since that blows the entire last year of debate about "moving the industry forward" out of the water. No more accusations of medieval games and fantasy games being racist. No more demands for gender quotas. No more squalling about the lack of "socially-relevant themes" (which always seem to be nothing more or less than what the complainant thinks is socially relevant).

It's done, that's over, it's all just business now. Let the free market decide.
 

Vanilla_Knight

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Calbeck said:
Apple seems to be coming to their senses, but my biggest disgust so far is reserved for those people who leapt to defend corporate freedoms as the ONLY concern involved.

Ban Civil War games? It's just business! There is absolutely nothing else to say because it all goes right down to a company's right to do business and this trumps any and all other concerns.

Well, good. Since that blows the entire last year of debate about "moving the industry forward" out of the water. No more accusations of medieval games and fantasy games being racist. No more demands for gender quotas. No more squalling about the lack of "socially-relevant themes" (which always seem to be nothing more or less than what the complainant thinks is socially relevant).

It's done, that's over, it's all just business now. Let the free market decide.
The camps that demand gender quotas and are anti-meritocracy are only pushing the "You're being silly. This is simply curation, not censorship" mantra because it suits their social-political agenda in the moment. They aren't actually right wing/free market in a way that allows for appealing to the market audience, they support this move because they agree with removal of "racist symbols" regardless of the context. They side step to the economic right if it's appealing to their brand of authoritarianism, it's nothing new with the current political landscape in America.

edit: Got reported and warned for a post that called out the immature passive-aggressive identity politics for what it was. The implications of Nazis, racist, and Confederate sympathizing because one disagrees with censorship is pathetic. I wish it were funny.
 

Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)

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Apple put the games back up good to know and I hope that this will give those developers some much-needed PR and customers after going through this whole debacle.
 

Wiggum Esquilax

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While I don't believe that the Confederate flag has any value today, forgetting history invites repetition. Censoring the record forces forgetfulness. Moves like this hurt the cause of Abolitionism. I'm not surprised that Apple saw the error of their ways, though It's a little astonishing they actually had the wisdom to admit making a mistake.
 

Something Amyss

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vallorn said:
Sure it's the confederate flag now but what if they banned the LGBT flag to avoid offending religious sensibilities?
You know, it's the damndest thing. I keep pointing out that their practices have been like this and it's been reported as such by the Escapist since before I signed up here in 2008. You've been on here almost as long: where was your outrage before this was about the rebel rag? And why now, specifically?

This is the result of a policy that's long been in effect, not a slippery slope to an issue. Something the Escapist forums was okay with and all libertarian about in the past, until the Nazi flag became an issue a year or two back, and now the KKK flag. Before that, it was all "free market, don't like don't buy!"

Well, y'all voted with your wallet. And you put Apple in charge.

As for the LGBT flag? You're asking the wrong person. I've said around here well before now that I support the right of Chick Fil-a to be homophobic douchebags, the right of Duck Dynasty to be homophobic douchebags, the right of Wal-Mart to be homophobic douchebags.

Guess where I come down on the app store not carrying pride flags. Hint: the same side as with Wal-Mart.

And as someone who is both queer and trans, all me to say: #notyoutshield

Wiggum Esquilax said:
Censoring the record forces forgetfulness.
Unless you're saying that the app store is the sole historical record, nobody's censoring the record. And if our only remaining source of history IS the app store, we have bigger problems.

Hell, we actually do have bigger problems. Texas is trying to eradicate founding fathers it doesn't like from textbooks, and as one of the big text book purchasers in the US, they tend to set curriculum. There is atual, literal record censorship going on out there, and people are druming up pagaentry and making comparisons to book buring and resorting to histrionics over not stocking games.

I think you folks might have it a little backwards. You're ignoring historical revisionism in order to invent it here.