App Store Pulling Games That Include the Confederate Flag - UPDATE

[FalloutJack]

This is funny, because I heard about a petition to tell the south to give up their flag in real life.

 

[Skatologist]

Trust me when I say that you can expect the legal ban to follow soon.

Care to make a wager on that? I'd be willing to go into four figures on such a bet.

Damn, can only manage 3 figures at the moment.

Stupid, but Apple has set a precedent in being stupid and doing everything possible toavoid stepping on a twig, so I can't really say I'm surprised nor disappointed. Hopefully this hasn't effected any other game retailers. Any word on Google Play or Microsoft's app storefront doing anything similarly idiotic?

According to the article itself (though this particular bit isn't sourced), Walmart, Amazon, Sears and Ebay are all doing the same thing, which means it's worse than just game retailers.

No, the article stated that those retailers were no longer selling confederate flags, not historical games that use the flag as a representation for the south. One is a completely stupid, absent-minded and arbitrary decision, and the other is an arbitrary decision that they thought out prior to doing because there's real weight to decision.

Well, that is indeed the distinction, but Walmart and other retailers got rid of all their confederate merchandise. You know, the bandanas, shirts, socks, and bikinis people wear to glorify that thing?

Here's one of a few sources I found: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/23/walmart-removes-confederate-flag-merchandise-from-stores

 

[PH3NOmenon]

Forcing children to recite oaths to their country wasn't enough. Now you have to ban the flag of your historic opponent and darker side of your history from being seen in public?

America is scary.

 

[Strazdas]

im amazed at how well the developers of Gettysburg took this. a very mature response from them.

Thats the Swastika youre thinking about.

Its more than just Swastika. This [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nvkf7PG9wZQ/TzUSotUgdaI/AAAAAAAALks/mpx-IgYMFv4/s1600/Troll+Pride+World+Wide.jpg] would also be illegal.

Why go after something so trivial?

Why are they still not adressing the core problems?

because adressing the core problems would take actual effort and going after something trivial allows them to pretend like they are doing something about it.

I'm already waiting for when this starts to spill on history books.

Your a bit out of the loop, it already happened
http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/item/17991-common-core-approved-textbooks-rewrite-second-amendment
http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/item/18981-scandal-engulfs-common-core-architect-for-rewrite-of-us-history

 

[frizzlebyte]

Every single person who advocates for the banning of the Confederate flag loses all moral high ground against Germany when it comes to banning nazi symbolism.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold your horses, here. Private companies deciding what symbols they, themselves want to sell is in no way comparable to government mandated censorship. Nor is government entities deciding what symbols they want to display on government property comparable to government mandated censorship of private citizens.

Nobody is making it illegal to make and display your very own confederate flag.

See, this is the kind of mentality I simply don't understand. Okay, so let's say that I want to own "my very own Confederate flag."

If I can't find a retailer that sells one, either because of self-censorship (Amazon, Ebay, Apple) or because reactionary doofuses (doofusi?) armed with Facebook accounts and inflated egos will ***** and whine until they stop selling them, how is that functionally *any* different from simply banning the flag at the state or federal level?

Lack of freedom can come just as easily from corporate and popular tyranny as from state tyranny.

 

[Jadak]

The pointlessness of the action aside, wouldn't this actually have a net negative impact? To the anti-flag population, this is meaningless, it earns a views nods of approval and that's that, issue forgotten shortly after, and the nonsense removal of usages in historical context will probably be undone soon enough.

But what about the Confederate flag waving nutjobs out there? The sort of people who actually rally behind such a thing aren't going to approve, and they won't quickly forget. Given that there's no actual benefits to banning the symbol, it seems rather stupid to provide a unifying outrage for hateful people to respond to.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

My country both used slaves in it's colonies and sold slaves under it's current flag, I fly it's colours without giving that a second thought. The confederate flag is not an inherent symbol of hatefulness.

It was always a sensitive issue, but never to this extent. The media and all these knee-jerk companies are busy "educating" black people in interpreting the confederate flag as a direct attack on them ... and they'll excuse any violence which results, as well as their role in causing it.

Can we combine draw Mohammed day with confederate flag day?

 

[Demagogue]

All I'm going to add is that I can't wait for the UK to get outraged at their citizens flying the traitorous American scum's flag, or Japan developers to stop promoting the American slaughter of thousands of countrymen in any games they make.

I'm just going to leave some quotes here that I think some Americans seem to be forgetting...

Freedom of speech is a principal pillar of a free government; when this support is taken away, the constitution of a free society is dissolved, and tyranny is erected on its ruins.

If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

All from your pal Benjamin Franklin.

 

[Recusant]

Stupid, but Apple has set a precedent in being stupid and doing everything possible toavoid stepping on a twig, so I can't really say I'm surprised nor disappointed. Hopefully this hasn't effected any other game retailers. Any word on Google Play or Microsoft's app storefront doing anything similarly idiotic?

According to the article itself (though this particular bit isn't sourced), Walmart, Amazon, Sears and Ebay are all doing the same thing, which means it's worse than just game retailers.

No, the article stated that those retailers were no longer selling confederate flags, not historical games that use the flag as a representation for the south. One is a completely stupid, absent-minded and arbitrary decision, and the other is an arbitrary decision that they thought out prior to doing because there's real weight to decision.

I quote: "...Apple has joined the ranks of Walmart, Amazon, Sears, and Ebay, who have all stated that they will no longer sell merchandise that includes the Confederate flag." That very clearly is not just "selling Confedaret flags", but merchandise that includes them. I don't see how you could mistake that for just referring to them flags themselves.

 

[Grahav]

My country both used slaves in it's colonies and sold slaves under it's current flag, I fly it's colours without giving that a second thought. The confederate flag is not an inherent symbol of hatefulness.

It was always a sensitive issue, but never to this extent. The media and all these knee-jerk companies are busy "educating" black people in interpreting the confederate flag as a direct attack on them ... and they'll excuse any violence which results, as well as their role in causing it.

Can we combine draw Mohammed day with confederate flag day?

Yep. Streisand effect.


You bet. I have drawn Mohammed and then I have an urge to buy a confederate flag (even though I am brazilian).

Although.


There are people who fly these flags for hateful reasons and people who fly it to celebrate their culture and their customs. The confederate flag in this city represents the latter.

If the confederate flag must be banned because racists wave it, the US flag must also be banned because /pol/ waves it. Anything with a sickle and a hammer must also go considering the mass raping, hunger genocides and dictator ship engineered by the Soviet Union. Ah, you can't forget 1400 years of Jihad so if there is a crescent moon, say good bye.

We should also ban crosses because christians hate gays. And also ban the rainbow flag, because gays hate christians.

 

[Thyunda]

This bothers me for two reasons.

The first is just from a historical and logical perspective. These games were about the Civil War. Unless they were some kind of neo-Confederate revisionist history type thing that glorified the Confederacy, I see literally no way that Apple's explanation of, "We are writing to notify you that your app has been removed from the App Store because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways," could be valid.

The second is a result of the first: because I have literally no idea why Apple could logically believe the explanation that they gave, I can only believe that this is a cynical, tasteless attempt to get good PR in the wake of a tragedy.

"Look over here!" they cry at the shocked public and grieving families, "We're deleting games from our App store because of how much we care about you!"

Even if it was a neo-Confederate revisionist history type thing that glorified the Confederacy, we have games and books and films about the bloody Nazis winning. Sven Hassel wrote a whole series about a soldier who fought for the Nazis. Ban the sale of the Confederate flag in major stores, sure - we don't sell swastikas, or the Rhodesian flag, or the pre-Revolution French flag, so we've got no business selling the Confederate one either.

You are right, though - Apple are either trying to callously milk this for PR, or they've got a 'brand manager' who is clinically insane.

 

[Something Amyss]

Supposedly Hilary Clinton, but when I checked that I couldn't find her calling for an actual ban. She said that it "shouldn't" be flown anywhere, but that would can be interpreted in multiple ways, like "it shouldn't in an ideal world" or "it shouldn't be allowed".

Basically what I expected to find.

But given the next poster here, I've got a second question:

Do you feel I've called you a Nazi? I'd like to clarify this because, according to Vanilla Knight, I've indicate that everyone who disagrees with Apple's move is a Nazi.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with your first post, but now it seems I can see what you truly are with your outrageous over-generalizations of the arguments being made and even the zealous implication that people who see this as a ridiculous move are "Confederate flag lovers" and by attribution you made, racists and Nazis.

Oh, we're off to a lovely start here.

If you have to change what I said to decide what I really am, you're not deciding what I really am.

It is self-evident to any reasonable person who has been reading this thread that most people here do not advocate racism or even have a distinct 'love' of the confederate flag.

Then any reasonable person can infer that I was not speaking to them specifically. However, I somehow doubt if we were to make a list of people, the people you claim are "self-evident" would all be excluded. In part because one of the patterns I've noticed on this site is that certain people are "free market" with Apple unless very specific things happen. If Apple decides to pull Nazi iconography, it's censorship. If they decide to pull the rebel rag, it's censorship. Almost anything that's not a symbol of hatred? "free market!!!!!"

But I would suggest behaving reasonably before you dictate what reasonable people would do.

You're also bringing completely irrelevant points of politics up in a thread about one particular issue. The books that stupid conservatives want to be taught are not in any way relevant to Apple's decision whatsoever.

I didn't bring that up. I responded to MarsAtlas, who responded to someone else (I forget who) who was talking about this being a slippery slope from the iTunes store to the history books. MarsAtlas made a point about actual historical revisionism, and I followd up on her point.

Get your facts straight before you chastise them.

I'm quite glad that the forum, as you said, has changed in tone.

See, the tone change I'm referencing is hypocrisy in action. Are you really glad that a bunch of Escapists have behaved hypocritically by supporting the flag? I doubt it. So don't claim otherwise.

It is quite apparent that social justice like yours is petulant and destructive.

Social Justice like mine? I'm confused. This has nothing to do with social justice. I've addressed the facts and history here. I have not spoken even to what "should" be that I remember.

I somehow doubt you mean my belief that women are people, gays should marry, or anything of the sort, so why are you bringing social justice into this?

You would sooner passive-aggressively call everyone a Nazis because they disagree with Germany's laws on Nazis memorabilia than you would to take the time to read someone's actual thoughts on the matter.

Considering you made a bunch of spurious accusations rather than bothering to read my thoughts on the matter? That's an odd statement to make there.

But, you see, I didn't call everyone a "Nazis" because they disagree with Germany's laws. I don't think I even brought up Germany's laws, and I'm pretty sure I haven't said my opinion on them. I referenced a bunch of supposedly free-market folks who are for "censorship" when it benefits them and against it when it removes something "offensive." And your use of "social justice" makes me think you are A. one of these people and B. really bothered by my post for that reason, rather than the claims you're making which are not in line with reality.

And whether you are one of those people or not, I do seriously wonder why there are folks on here who ordinarily agree with Apple's store restrictions but have a tantrum when it's specifically Nazi iconography (because this actually happened) or the KKK flag. Because I'm not even going to pretend this was the Confederate flag. This is not the same as calling them Nazis, sorry. And I think it's a legit question: why do people not seem to care about their "censorship" policies normally, but get into a tizzy over this flag? That would indicate to me that something else is going on. Or that the concern is...less than sincere.

 

[mew4ever23]

This is getting a bit silly. Yes, I realize that the confederate flag is mainly associated with racist agendas due largely to the KKK adopting it, but still.. really? It's a battle standard that several confederate generals DID use, and it IS a part of civil war history, whether people like it or not.

It might be better to take a stab at the underlying issues that cause events like these, and other racial inequalities. And as I've said for years - America needs to strike amendment #2, or at the least enact some tougher gun control - The right to bare arms is clearly not being exercised in a safe manner, and hasn't been for a very long time now.

 

[Gorrath]

This is getting a bit silly. Yes, I realize that the confederate flag is mainly associated with racist agendas due largely to the KKK adopting it, but still.. really? It's a battle standard that several confederate generals DID use, and it IS a part of civil war history, whether people like it or not.

It might be better to take a stab at the underlying issues that cause events like these, and other racial inequalities. And as I've said for years - America needs to strike amendment #2, or at the least enact some tougher gun control - The right to bare arms is clearly not being exercised in a safe manner, and hasn't been for a very long time now.

You are right in your estimation that people do not exercise safe gun ownership. Nor do they exercise safe car ownership, safe speech, safe religion, or safe anything else. The government is tasked with helping keep us safe and the rights amendments keep the government from going too far in that effort. Thankfully we do have laws against doing many unsafe things.

 

[Pyrian]

Private companies deciding what symbols they, themselves want to sell is in no way comparable to government mandated censorship. Nor is government entities deciding what symbols they want to display on government property comparable to government mandated censorship of private citizens.

Nobody is making it illegal to make and display your very own confederate flag.

See, this is the kind of mentality I simply don't understand. Okay, so let's say that I want to own "my very own Confederate flag."

If I can't find a retailer that sells one, either because of self-censorship (Amazon, Ebay, Apple) or because reactionary doofuses (doofusi?) armed with Facebook accounts and inflated egos will ***** and whine until they stop selling them, how is that functionally *any* different from simply banning the flag at the state or federal level?

Well, you could get a white sheet and some dyes and a few hours of your own time. Or, you could order it from the substantial number of smaller outfits that still sell it and are indeed rejoicing in the sudden windfall. Sheesh. It's not even a big deal.

Lack of freedom can come just as easily from corporate and popular tyranny as from state tyranny.

Look, I'm sympathetic to that view, although I disagree with "just as easily". Industry standards and non-negotiable boiler plate contracts can be almost as powerful as regulations, sure.

But this? This isn't like that at all.

 

[Atmos Duality]

To surrender peace of mind to a symbol, regardless of how it's portrayed, is a hallmark of cowardice.
Learn from your mistakes, or be doomed to repeat them in the future.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, you could get a white sheet and some dyes and a few hours of your own time..

It seems like it's unthinkable that one group of people would be asked to do that, though.

 

[Callate]

It's pretty clear that Apple didn't do the due diligence to determine if the flag in these apps was used in a "offensive and mean-spirited way"; only that it was present. Shame on them.

 

[RaikuFA]

Why are they still not adressing the core problems?

Because the core problem is the NRA. You know, the guys with guns that use them to intimitate people into scapegoating others?

No. The core problem is someone deciding to pick a gun and shoot people, then picking up a gun and shooting people.
-Take away the guns and they'll use bombs (like the Tsarnaevs) or pathogens (like the anthrax attackers), or some other means of murder.
-Establish better mental health facilities and the violently insane won't feel any compulsion to use them; they'll probably figure they were set up by the government to control the masses, or some such nonsense.

Better gun laws and better medical care availability can help- they can reduce the number of attacks, and sometimes mitigate the damage done. But ultimately, the core problem is people deciding to do these horrible things. It's terrifying to admit, and it can't be stopped, and the fear prompts people to assume "if we just do X, this will never happen again". But it's not the guns or the madness that's pulling the trigger. It's will, pure and simple.

True. I do agree the whole mental health care system needs work. But we do need better gun laws and the NRA probably won't allow that to happen.

 

[vallorn]

I really only have one reaction to this. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. So removing a flag, a symbol of history with various meanings from art or the like is inherently wrong. I agree that it really should not be on state buildings (Unless they fly it during an anniversary of a battle or something) but war memorials, art, and the like are places where it should allowed to be kept flying. It's a Battle Flag after all so it's only right that it flies at old war memorials for soldiers who fought under it. I'd say the same for any war memorial even those of the nazis, the dead deserve some recognition and respect and we should not forget the old wars, forgive, sure, but not forget, because when we forget history like that we lose a part of ourselves.

Note, I'm raised British so I think Americans are incredibly silly when it comes to race (No, not just white americans, all skin colours) and that everyone seems to be making a big fuss over fuck all that leads to stupidity like banning an old flag rather than actually solving any problems. Get up off your bums and do something. The British did, they exported the banning of the slave trade by blockading the entirety of West Africa against slave ships and then abolished it in most other areas, so why can't Americans get off their asses and actually deal with their problems rather than wanting to ban things and making unnecessary fuss about nothing?

Oh, and this seems like a perfect example of corporate censorship. It's not the government banning things sure but this is still a tyranny in action when it comes to banning access to things.