Apparently Riot has some problem with women: nasty behind-the-scenes stuff

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

When a company is 80% male, there's probably going to be a bro culture... duh, it's because there are a bunch of bros there.

A "bro culture" is fine as long as it doesn't harm those that aren't part of that culture.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

Yes, and?

In this case it appears those feelings are founded.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

Taking that train of thought to the end station, any amoral behaviour within a company can be excused as long as it turns a profit.

Also, never thought I'd see someone else being pro F2P on this site, but there you go.

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

I find that part absolutely asinine.

The games being cited don't even make sense - apparently playing an FPS (CoD) will make someone better developing for a MOBA (LoL). I mean, if Riot wants to make an FPS with Miss Fortune, Jinx, or someone else, sure, but I'm not counting on that actually happening.

In the realm of personal experience, again, work in libraries. A common interview question is "why do you want to work here?" No-one ever quizzed me on what types of books I like to read.

Basically, it reeks of elitism - the whole "real gamer" nonsense that pops up every so often.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

CoD is dominated by males.

Which isn't a bad thing in of itself, but again, what is Riot's raison de'etre that "you need to play CoD to work on an ARTS?"

I think the focus with CoD is mainly that of a game which is primarily purchased to be played in a competitive, online, multiplayer setting. Since that's what LoL is like it makes sense that they'd want people who play games with a similar mentality.


I certainly don't find it elitist because despite them not considering me a gamer, I know I've won tons of money with anime fighting games and am good enough to win tournaments where money prizes are offered, so I don't need them to acknowledge me on top of that. I think the only people who mind if someone questions their being a gamer are ones insecure about not belonging, and anyone who is an actual gamer would just laugh it off due to its sheer absurdity. That's how I feel anyhow as a fan of jrpgs and someone who never plays shooters and never touched WoW and so on lol.

If such issues regarding sexual harassment did occur, legal recourse and not crying at kotaku is the way to go.

I fully support their idea of questioning people's gamer cred, despite the fact that they seem to like games like shooters more than Rpgs which would disqualify me from their idea of a gamer. It's fully their right to hire people who fit in with their ideal image of the gamer because that's how they'll best make the games they want to make.

That a lot of women fail to qualify is only a side-effect of the fact that almost everyone who isn't a fan of call of duty or strategy pc games would fail to qualify.

Uhh, legal recourse is in the hands of civil law and not criminal law.

I.e. you have to find and pay your own lawyers. See Stardock's numerous lawsuits for an idea of how "your lone ass vs flush corporate lawyers" tends to play out. Aka, they counter sue over some "you're trying to sabotage the company" BS and hold it up in court until you run out of money, they settle for no money and you have to apologize. They've done it at least once over sexual harassment, and have an ongoing suit that will likely let them steal the Star Control rights from the creators, including, bizarrely, the thought that the creators of Star Control can't even call themselves the creators of Star Control, unless the actual creators of Star Control can find a couple millions of dollars to fight back.

That's how "legal recourse" goes in civil law. Hell, talking to Kotaku actually helps future "legal recourse" attempts, because look at everybody else corroborating. Establishes a pattern of behavior.

I don't know how you can be so sure that whoever was suing them in the past was an actual victim and not someone trying to scam money out of them. It's certainly not impossible that a disgruntled employee may use deception to get back at a company they have a beef with.

Either way, Kotaku is not the law, this is just getting public opinion to support someone who isn't willing to go through the usual procedure we already have in place for dealing with sexual harassment. If they won't do that they don't deserve the usual sympathy for people who go through it either.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I think the focus with CoD is mainly that of a game which is primarily purchased to be played in a competitive, online, multiplayer setting. Since that's what LoL is like it makes sense that they'd want people who play games with a similar mentality.


I certainly don't find it elitist because despite them not considering me a gamer, I know I've won tons of money with anime fighting games and am good enough to win tournaments where money prizes are offered, so I don't need them to acknowledge me on top of that. I think the only people who mind if someone questions their being a gamer are ones insecure about not belonging, and anyone who is an actual gamer would just laugh it off due to its sheer absurdity. That's how I feel anyhow as a fan of jrpgs and someone who never plays shooters and never touched WoW and so on lol.

I sort of see what you are saying and I can agree that we (as people who play games as a collective whole) need to loosen up a bit about who's a gamer and who isn't, but:

Riots approach isn't just about asking people sort-of provocative questions about what games they play and whether they are dedicated enough to those games to get the Gamer Seal of Approval. Their approach is about dismissing viable job candidates, not because the candidates lack experience in their field of work, but because of what games they play and how much they play those games. That's what makes it all so fucked up, that getting hired to Riot is ultimately not down to whether you are a good programmer, artist or customer service rep, it is down to whether you play the right games in the right way in your free time.

Imagine the uproar if a company that makes paper towels and wet wipes would only hire people who carry around a set of either in their pocket/purse because "they understand the customer experience". Shit, imagine a man not getting a job at a lingerie company (any position) because "he doesn't wear lingerie and doesn't get our customers". It is tangentially related to the job at hand, but it has no direct impact on whether any given candidate will be good at the job. Riots hiring practices indirectly discriminates women (just as my imaginary lingerie-clause discriminates men), by taking the road of demanding that candidates engage in a typically male-oriented activity in their free time.

Even if it didn't so obviously discriminate, it would still be a stupid clause, based solely on the simple fact that it removes potentially outstanding candidates based on a metric that doesn't satisfactorily judge work performance. This is indicative of the problem of small companies (gaming or no) that grow too fast. Riot went from a college dorm start-up to the company behind one of the top 5 online games in less then five years, its founders (current chairmen of the board) went from business students to chairing the board of one of the biggest game studios in the world in that same time. They have no experience with leadership on that level, or efficient hiring practices or any of that important stuff and in their desire to create a "perfect company", they obviously made some serious missteps that could have been avoided had they had more time to gain experience before being thrust into upper management positions in a massive, international company. I doubt this entire thing reflects any sort of malicious behavior on the part of Riots upper management, just a naive failure to understand the importance of cultivating respectful office culture, because the idea that "everyone can be best buds and do what they love" sounds much more appealing.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

And apparently Riot doesn't have an HR department.
Putting aside the "SJW" stuff, nobody wants to work in an uncomfortable, toxic work environment and BS like that just creates just such an environment. When forced to work in such an environment will lower productivity.
Then of course there's the fact that everyone has the right to be treated with respect and dignity (unless they're an asshole) whether they're male, female, or whatever.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

I've got to remember that one.

 

[Mothro]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

 

[Erttheking]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

 

[Mothro]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

 

[BrawlMan]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Seems like it?s more along the line of enabling. Also it may not be commonplace, but there are certainly chicks out there that talk as dirty or even dirtier than guys. It?s off-putting mostly because it just doesn?t seem right, but the main difference is generally that most guys wouldn?t take offense to the extent that most chics do.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Can I just ask that the mods lock this thread down if the discussion refuses to resolve itself by the time it hits 10 pages? Discussions of this subject completely destroyed these forums years ago and if there's going to be new management and potential hope for a revival of this place then I'd rather this contentious issue be forcibly stopped before it goes out of control.

Please do note, I am not saying this isn't worth discussing, all I am saying is that there comes a point where everyone has said all they can say and are doing nothing but running around in circles repeating the same things over and over at each other with nothing to show for it but bruised feelings and a lack of new happier topics.

 

[Mothro]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

 

[sagitel]

As someone who plays LoL...yeah, I'm not going to contest that.

As someone who started playing HotS before LoL, well, it was like night and day. Not that HotS is perfect, but it's practically PC compared to some of the garbage I read in the text bar in some matches.

To go off topic I have friends I play lol and hots with and one of them sums up the differences between both player bases. League has far more toxic players, that get more toxic the more they play and continually fucks up.

Hots are nicer people but not nearly as skilled and we'll make dumb mistakes without being tilted. and when you do get that toxic person they will be the worst player imaginable and refuse to take responsibility for their fuck ups. Pretty much the dumbass who thinks he's Einstein.

of course occasionally the situations are reversed, but that's been my experience.

as a dude who started in LoL and played HotS since the beta (on and off) im usually the person whose raging at the team . i have no idea how you can stand HotS. the XP system is really really bad

 

[Hawki]

i have no idea how you can stand HotS. the XP system is really really bad

HotS is much more enjoyable than LoL in pretty much every way. The XP system is one of said ways (shared XP is less toxic, makes the team feel far more cohesive, allows heroes like Abathur to exist, gives a better sense of where your team is at, negates the whole last hitting nonsense, etc.)

LoL has some merit, but I really need to be in a certain state of mind to play it, in the knowledge that:

a) I'm going to be on the same map AGAIN

b) The meta is going to be the same AGAIN (top, mid, jungle, adc, support)

c) The match is going to go for about 40 minutes

d) There's a strong chance that the side I'm on is going to descend into bitching

In essence, there's about a 50/50 chance at best that I'm going to enjoy a LoL game. In HotS, if I don't enjoy a game, it'll not drag on for too long anyway.

 

[Kerg3927]

I work with some of blokiest blokes that ever did bloke, but I feel confident in saying that if our boss walked up and farted in the face of any of them, they'd need the jaws of life to remove the enraged boot from their arse. Because there's a difference between being a bit of a lad, and being a disgusting arsehole.

Like surely the social contract in a professional environment would imply that doing that is just fucking rude?

Yeah, I would say that playing the fart game crosses the line in most work environments, and I would think most companies would reprimand, discipline, or even fire an employee who did something like that at work. But to keep things in perspective, we're not talking about rape and murder here...

This kind of behavior is not inherent too maleness. And most men don't identify themself as "bros" and don't condone such a shit.

Sure for the same reason a women at such a place might keep quite to avoid trouble, a man could do the same but it is not something that typically comes into existence whenever men get together.

Yes, some people would claim that this is "toxic masculinity". But i disagree on the ground that this is not actually masculinity at all.

Have you ever been in a male sports locker room? I admit that it's been 25 years for me, since I played (American) football in high school, and maybe things have changed since then. But in my experience, when you have a group of dudes hanging out together, and they all know each other well, they typically act noticeably different than a mixed group of men and women do. There is typically more masculinity, bravado, crude language, etc.

I know not all men act masculine. But I find it hard to believe that it's "most men." We do have testosterone in our bodies after all.

A "bro culture" is fine as long as it doesn't harm those that aren't part of that culture.

Agreed. Harm is a difficult thing to define, though.

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

Yes, and?

In this case it appears those feelings are founded.

My point is that when someone gets promoted, there are usually other contenders who each feel that he/she deserved it more. And this goes for males and females. It's not hard to find former employees of a large company who are willing to bad mouth their former employer because they feel like they didn't get a fair shake in moving up the corporate ladder. And if you're only looking for females to interview, it's probably not hard to find ones that feel like sexism was involved.

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

Taking that train of thought to the end station, any amoral behaviour within a company can be excused as long as it turns a profit.

Also, never thought I'd see someone else being pro F2P on this site, but there you go.

Not necessarily. We do have laws that are there to protect people.

As far as F2P, I've never played League of Legends. I was just saying that their business model appears to be successful for their shareholders, which is the reason all for-profit companies exist.

 

[BrawlMan]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

 

[Mothro]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

 

[BrawlMan]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB forums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it in conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

 

[Mothro]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB for ums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

That's awesome. Equality is good. Sadly most people do not use it but are perfectly happy to say manchild every chance they get.

It's funny that people are so quick to judge males but most of those people would never try to tell a woman what it means to be a real woman.

 

[Erttheking]

Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB for ums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

That's awesome. Equality is good. Sadly most people do not use it but are perfectly happy to say manchild every chance they get.

It's funny that people are so quick to judge males but most of those people would never try to tell a woman what it means to be a real woman.

That?s because a real woman is like a real man. A lot of garbage designed to slam those who don?t follow gender sterotyping.