Apple Sparks Foxconn Investigations

[Jegsimmons]

apple is a scum company, i was wondering why no body did this earlier.

 

[Harper0341]

March 1st 2011 (Couldn't find anything newer)

Apple Net Worth: $302.47 billion
Microsoft Net Worth: $224.01 billion
Google Net Worth: $190 billion

When you can sell mediocre products at a beyond premium price, of course you will have more money lying around.

Props to Apple marketing.

snip

Yeah that is Mr Gates's personal net worth. Good lord that guys has it made heh.

Anyway on topic, this kind of crap has been going on for years, and Apple is definitely not the only guilty party in this. The only reason this is getting ANY attention over here is because the mass suicide threat managed to get on the news here.

 

[Duncan V]

In other words Apple made a public statement so not only did the company's existing policies to keep workers quiet in the event of unexpected safety reviews are in place, they also have time to clean things up a bit and make it look even better.

Foxxcon is a bad company. This is Apple's fault. It is also Microsofts. And Sony's. And almost all electronics manufacturers out there. Apple can request as much as they want for their publicity but nothing will happen. Even if they say there are awful conditions at Foxconn they will not end their contracts and neither will anyone else because all businesses need to make profit. Even if they did change manufacturing companies they would still be sweatshop conditions and this investigation has no possibility of improving conditions in the Third World or getting jobs back here.

 

[Baresark]

snip

allegations?

ahem, click this link.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/tag/foxconn


and then see this image:

oh, yea, threatening a mass suicide because of bad working conditions is an "allegation"......

LoL... Just LoL. You just learn to read, because you're doing it wrong. That article says 300 ex employees threaten suicide over missing compensation, not over bad work conditions. Also, if you follow your own link you find an article that says Microsoft had it's own investigation and found the suicide threat was not over work conditions but employee compensation. I reiterate my point, I'm not saying these things are not a problem, but until a formal investigation is mounted by a third party we have no way of separating sensationalism from truth. Newspapers love to jump on controversial subjects, ad nauseum.

According to some sources, that particular factory employs 1 million people. Imagine having 1 million totally happy well adjusted employees. Yeah, you can't because such a situation does not exist. The suicide rate in China is 22.23 people per 100,000. They seem below quota for the population of employed people. I don't want more suicides, but I have little patience for media sensationalism, that is why I am waiting to make any decisions until said investigation is done and reports whatever results it may report.

 

[Baresark]

March 1st 2011 (Couldn't find anything newer)

Apple Net Worth: $302.47 billion
Microsoft Net Worth: $224.01 billion
Google Net Worth: $190 billion

When you can sell mediocre products at a beyond premium price, of course you will have more money lying around.

Props to Apple marketing.

snip

Yeah that is Mr Gates's personal net worth. Good lord that guys has it made heh.

Anyway on topic, this kind of crap has been going on for years, and Apple is definitely not the only guilty party in this. The only reason this is getting ANY attention over here is because the mass suicide threat managed to get on the news here.

I read a fascinating book that outlined his utter luck that landed him in that position. I could use some of that, haha.

 

[jetriot]

Blame the companies all you want and it is true the Apple especially has very healthy profit margins. But the fact is we buy the products because they are less expensive than if they were made in America. Do we honestly think any products that we buy that are made in China are made by workers that enjoy better working conditions? The answer is an obvious no.

China is going through their own Gilded Age just like the one we had 100 years ago. Their workers will rise up an unionize and the price of the things we enjoy will either increase or the manufacturing jobs will go to another country. There is absolutely nothing that can be done about other than to let these things take their course.

For those yelling at Apple(of which I own no products of) I ask you this. If Apple offered two Iphones that were the exact same but one was $100 dollars more and was made by better treated workers which would you buy? 99% of all consumers would buy the one that was 100$ cheaper. Obviously. If this was not the case than manufacturing would not have moved to China in the first place.

It sucks for them as it did for our great grandparents, but as their GDP increases and they decrease the power of their government their working conditions will change and we will instead begin bitching about the higher costs of electronics and clothing.

 

[jetriot]

Triple Post wth?

 

[jetriot]

Double Post. Damn you firefox.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

And why they're asking someone else to do it now. After they've finished constructing their iPads.

I was joking. I agree with you.

And hey, the quote was from my birthday!

...Weird connection, I know.

I got the sarcasm, just seemed a good place to inundate the details

Right. No one is debating the ethics of it. So, what's your point.

At the moment you're either voluntarily ignoring facts or trolling.

Nevertheless, let me detail where you seem to be missing the point.

Apple knew about this, and spoke out about this, two years ago.

They HAVE voluntarily ignored the abuse of human rights to get their product made.

There's evidence to support that. What we are talking about now is due process to catch up with the evidence. Apple are standing over the murdered person with the gun still in their hand, and already admitted to killing him, 2 years ago.

It's called an allegation because Apple, like any other citizen in the First World, are innocent until declared guilty. They may still be guilty ethically, morally and financially - which we've proven - but legally requires due process.

As for suicide numbers, there's a similar situation to DuPont; where they deal with a situation that increases the risk of certain deaths (DuPont due to cancer, Foxconn due to suicide). What they do is screen applicants and refuse them a job if their application shows they are more likely to get it. Their numbers are higher than average because their average should be very low.

I'm not sure if you're aware of Foxconn, but their factories are the size of small villages. In fact they have small villages with all the facilities in the factory, so it's not just your job, but your home, your shopping and your entertainment. They control your life.

Now, you can snark all you want, and you've shown evidence of this before - but clinging to manufactured evidence instead of multiple cases of documented evidence shows a behavior little short of delirium. Or Apple PR.

If Apple offered two Iphones that were the exact same but one was $100 dollars more and was made by better treated workers which would you buy? 99% of all consumers would buy the one that was 100$ cheaper.

Let's change that. 99% of Apple customers might, but 10%(?) wanted to pay more for an ethical one.

Personally, I wouldn't touch it if it was on fire and had tits.

 

[bakan]

For those yelling at Apple(of which I own no products of) I ask you this. If Apple offered two Iphones that were the exact same but one was $100 dollars more and was made by better treated workers which would you buy? 99% of all consumers would buy the one that was 100$ cheaper. Obviously. If this was not the case than manufacturing would not have moved to China in the first place.

Actually, Apple could easily manufacture in western countries without making their products more expensive, if they cut back on some bonus payments/hording money, as their products have ridiculous profit margins.

The drive for more profit every year is what created the current situation in several manufacturing areas.

 

[LilithSlave]

OUCH! And I even own a couple Foxconn motherboards, because they're so darn cheap.

Somehow I feel like I've failed as a leftist.

 

[LilithSlave]

Double post because the Escapist website is completely failing right now.

 

[jetriot]

For those yelling at Apple(of which I own no products of) I ask you this. If Apple offered two Iphones that were the exact same but one was $100 dollars more and was made by better treated workers which would you buy? 99% of all consumers would buy the one that was 100$ cheaper. Obviously. If this was not the case than manufacturing would not have moved to China in the first place.

Actually, Apple could easily manufacture in western countries without making their products more expensive, if they cut back on some bonus payments/hording money, as their products have ridiculous profit margins.

The drive for more profit every year is what created the current situation in several manufacturing areas.

I agree on Apples profit margin, but you can only blame brainwashed customers willing to pay anything for the shiny. Apple products are unique in that they really were a luxury item, like a Prada bag, until very recently when everyone decided they have to own one as well.

However, I don't see how these Chinese workers we are suddenly advocating for again will be better off if their jobs moved over seas.

 

[bakan]

snip

[...]

However, I don't see how these Chinese workers we are suddenly advocating for again will be better off if their jobs moved over seas.

You could also ask the western workers, then those in eastern Europe, and now the workers in Asia...

 

[Baresark]

snip

Simply put. That is untrue. I love you regard me as "snarky" when in fact you are looking at only text. It's very amusing.

Here comes your off base accusations that I'm not looking at data. I'm going to start with how this started in the first place. What you are regarding as proof is un-investigated claims. All I'm saying is that we should be sure before we start condemning people. I am all for investigating the hell out of the place. And if the accusations are found to be true, then I say hang 'em all. LoL, I am not clinging to manufactured anything. You just live to be argumentative without actually proving anything that resembles a point.

We are both looking at the same data, all I'm saying is that a formal investigation needs to happen before anything is decided. I'm aware of the size of the facility in question. I'm also aware the vast majority of the employees stay in dormitories, the facility has it's now shopping centers and television station, but people also live in the surrounding country side. I'm from New Jersey, we have several locations that are just like that description, they are called Newark and Jersey City. I'm also aware that Microsoft did the exact same thing that is being done now and did not find any problems in the facility. I'm honestly looking forward to what a third party investigation will turn up.

As always, my biggest concern is putting first world values to second or third world nation. People do this all the time. If a second or third world nation was put to first world standards, there would be no reason to outsource to other countries so they have the opportunity to grow in wealth. Nor would they be able to produce products for cheaper than domestic labor.

You and I are not actually on different sides here. But, what you see is all there is, So there is no understanding anything besides what you are seeing right now. All I'm doing is leaving room for doubt, for myself. As before, I'm prepared to be wrong.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

What you are regarding as proof is un-investigated claims.

Here's a clue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2012/feb/14/mike-daisey-steve-jobs-play

contains a downloadable PDF of a PLAY written about Steve Jobs looking into the situation at the factory.

This man wrote a play about what had gone wrong. Plays take a long time to write. Some other people wrote a wikipedia article. That's been up since 2010. 250,000 other people asked Apple to look into it. That was in 2011.

These are all people who have investigated the claims. Apple could sue the hell out of Jimbo Wells if it wasn't true. And they have the power to do so. They could sue the hell out of Mike Daisey for slander of Steve Jobs - either way.

They didn't.

Apple themselves said they'd look into it, two years previously.

They didn't.

That, by definition, is voluntary ignorance.

That is what they are being accused of. It's an allegation based on multiple corroborated pieces of evidence.

As always, my biggest concern is putting first world values to second or third world nation.

I think "inhumane and abusive" works in any world value. Especially when it's provided by a their own countries university. The 83 page report detailing all of these abuses.
Foxconn factories are labour camps: report. South China Morning Post. Oct. 11, 2010.

Now I know that you're just going to snip this and say something trite like "I'm just looking at the same data", but you've already done that. And ignored what I, and others, have previously said.

What I see is a widely spread, fully documented report on how Apple's assembly line was inhumane and abusive. That's my data. What's yours?

Oh yeah

But my simple point is that threatening the company may not result in better jobs for people, it may result in no jobs for people, followed by starvation and personal desolation.

So Slavery is something we must put up with instead of Death. You don't think that's a mild exaggeration? If that's your point, then we should be applauding Apple for bringing Slavery back to American Business. I mean, the Thirteenth Amendment doesn't apply to other countries, does it?