Apple Sparks Foxconn Investigations

[Baresark]

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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/101014-Suicides-Spur-Nintendo-Sony-and-Others-to-Investigate-Foxconn


see that wheel on your mouse? that allows you to scroll up and down on webpages.


hell, there is even an entire wikipedia article based on Foxconn suicides alone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides



so, yet again

Ok, we can go back and forth on this. That article you linked was from 2010, which I was having trouble finding a single article that went back that far, so thanks for that (though non-escapist articles would have been better(multi-sourcing is a far superior way of source checking)). Since there was no followup to this investigation article, and they did not lose those companies as customers, I'm forced to assume (which I hate to do) that either they don't give a shit about how the workers are treated (could definitely be true), or they came up with nothing in their investigation to prove that there were in fact poor work conditions (which could also be true).

And their being a Wikipedia article about a hot subject is not indicative of anything at all. Once again, all it does is show that someone accused them of bad things and nothing came of it. They did apparently raise the worker wages because of this though.

I'll do this though:

That particular factory has a maximum estimated employee count of 450k (no one seems to know for sure). The national suicide rate for China in that same year was 22.23 suicides per 100K people (number 9 in the world). Since they had 450k people on site, I would say the suicide rate actually falls on the low side since going by the national average and the population a number closer to 100 would fit the national average. Statistically speaking, that doesn't mean they should have 100 suicides, but that would be a lot closer to the mean.

There are other things to take into account. They have cultural underpinnings that make suicide a popular choice it would seem (the Chinese guy from that factory that lost the prototype iPhone4 committed suicide over that)(all of the East Asian countries have high suicide rates though). Also, with such a large population sample there is the strong likelihood that the people were unstable as well. I'm going to take it one step further and give into my guilty pleasure of creating a causal story to explain myself further (we all do it, it's how our brains work). What if they were unstable but barely holding on. Then one suicide could drive another unstable person to suicide, and two could drive another to suicide and so on.

But, as I said before, I'm not opposed to making someone pay and the factory workers get their fair shake. I am opposed to summarily assuming guilt without being sure. So, I favor being sure over feeling righteous. Unlike a lot of other people around here.

 

[Baresark]

What you are regarding as proof is un-investigated claims.

Here's a clue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2012/feb/14/mike-daisey-steve-jobs-play

contains a downloadable PDF of a PLAY written about Steve Jobs looking into the situation at the factory.

This man wrote a play about what had gone wrong. Plays take a long time to write. Some other people wrote a wikipedia article. That's been up since 2010. 250,000 other people asked Apple to look into it. That was in 2011.

These are all people who have investigated the claims. Apple could sue the hell out of Jimbo Wells if it wasn't true. And they have the power to do so. They could sue the hell out of Mike Daisey for slander of Steve Jobs - either way.

They didn't.

Apple themselves said they'd look into it, two years previously.

They didn't.

That, by definition, is voluntary ignorance.

That is what they are being accused of. It's an allegation based on multiple corroborated pieces of evidence.

As always, my biggest concern is putting first world values to second or third world nation.

I think "inhumane and abusive" works in any world value. Especially when it's provided by a their own countries university. The 83 page report detailing all of these abuses.
Foxconn factories are labour camps: report. South China Morning Post. Oct. 11, 2010.

Now I know that you're just going to snip this and say something trite like "I'm just looking at the same data", but you've already done that. And ignored what I, and others, have previously said.

What I see is a widely spread, fully documented report on how Apple's assembly line was inhumane and abusive. That's my data. What's yours?

Oh yeah

But my simple point is that threatening the company may not result in better jobs for people, it may result in no jobs for people, followed by starvation and personal desolation.

So Slavery is something we must put up with instead of Death. You don't think that's a mild exaggeration? If that's your point, then we should be applauding Apple for bringing Slavery back to American Business. I mean, the Thirteenth Amendment doesn't apply to other countries, does it?

Haha, you did it again. You wanted to be in an argument (because you're argumentative) but didn't prove anything. You are putting words into my mouth. Lol, you guys are a lot of fun. Let me help you, you didn't say anything that doesn't prove an investigation by a third party is unnecessary. You cited the contents of a few articles like that proves your point. Your point is that these people are guilty and no further investigation is necessary. I don't agree. I would say that a big investigation is in order. I would say total transparency (we all know that isn't going to happen though).

I'm fully aware of the report. But, if you bother reading that Wikipedia article further, you would also see that there are many reports from experts saying it's not true. That is why an investigation by a third party is necessary. LoL, you guys, I love ya. Bless your little hearts.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

You are putting words into my mouth.

I know, crazy isn't it? We're just expressing opinions on how a company is deliberately abusing slave labour to get its products made - and you're dismissing all claims until they're proven by a third party hired by Apple.

A third party that's funded by Apple. And Nike. And Dell. And HP.

And then if they're found guilty, you want them all on Death Row, or did you mean "hang them" in a metaphorical sense?

Presumably then they can take all of their business out of FoxConn, where it's no longer needed and let them starve.

or they're found innocent, everyone can enjoy feeling warm about how their iPad was not produced by Chinese Slave Labour. Because a group funded by Apple said so.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/technology/critics-question-record-of-fair-labor-association-apples-monitor.html


By the way:

During a 2008 audit, we discovered that in order to work for some suppliers, many workers were coerced by unscrupulous recruiting agents into paying excessively high fees to gain employment in neighboring countries. Because fees to these corrupt middlemen often equaled many months? wages, workers were taking on huge debt even before they started at the job. They were forced to hand over nearly all their wages to recruiters to pay this debt, and they had to remain at the job until the debt was paid.

Apple limits factory working hours to a maximum of 60 work hours per week and requires at least one day of rest per seven days of work ? except in emergencies or unusual circumstances.

In 2011, audits discovered instances of ethical breaches including:

Falsifying work-hour records and employee profiles
Providing falsified payroll records and misleading answers in interviews with Apple?s auditing team

Obstructing the auditing team?s effort to obtain payroll records
Coaching workers with intimidating language on how to answer questions

Apple addressed the issues by requiring further audits and investigations, repayment of underpaid workers, adjustment of worker benefits, adjustment of management processes, remediation of health and safety violations, and retraining of management. In some cases, we terminated our business relationship with the supplier. /ethics.html

We were deeply saddened by events at two of our suppliers in 2011. An explosion at Foxconn?s Chengdu factory tragically took the lives of four employees and injured 18 others. An explosion at the Ri-Teng (a subsidiary of Pegatron) factory in Shanghai injured 59. health-and-safety.html

In 2010, Apple worked with our supplier Foxconn to launch an employee assistance program (EAP) at its facility in Shenzhen, China. Workers there now have access to free psychological counseling, including a 24-hour hotline, to get advice on their personal and professional concerns.

But they were totally unaware of the bad conditions in Foxconn's factory. Totally.

Which is why they investigated the explosion and put in psychiatrists.

But I'm sure the FLA will find something to please you.

 

[Baresark]

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I was not dismissing anything. I did say that an independent audit was necessary to investigate claims. That article you directed me to was very nice. I know you like to ignore things, you are excellent at it, but while people have backed up the claims, others have denied the validity of the claims. I know it must just kill you that there are people out there to do not fall in line with your beliefs, I can tell by how you recklessly pursue them without any recognition of what anyone else is saying. I'll say it again. All claims of wrong doing must be substantiated. Since there are currently people who agree and disagree that it's happening, then we need definitive group.

You are making assumptions about my statements and it defies reason. I never said Apple did not know, but I did say we don't know since there is conflicting evidence. But you don't care about that one bit because you have made your decision. You are suffering from what is called a confirmation bias, just to save you the trouble I am putting the definition:

People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

Since you have made your decision already, all other evidence doesn't matter to you and furthermore, in the case of a confirmation bias you cannot imagine it coming any other way. All I'm asking for is proof from the third party agency. I know, you can't trust them because they are funded by a collaboration of big companies, but they are all funded by someone, so you probably can't trust any of them.

Haha, I'm sure you are the only one who needs to be pleased. Once again, I'm fully prepared for them to be totally guilty of these things, all I want is more than a few newspaper articles since the only thing papers print is sensationalist drivel. Not necessarily false, but sensationalist.

We are done here sir, we are not going to reach a conclusion in any meaningful way. You say they are guilty, I say they may be guilty, that is as close as we are going to get.