Are people too hard on smokers?

[InsaneMaggot]

So i created an account after i lurked the last few days, and this shall be my first post.

Let's start here, i'm from germany and generally i never encountered the problem with militant-anti-smokers. Curiously that seems to be an american thing.
When people tell me they don't like to inhale my second hand smoke, i do a few different things, for example
1) try to position myself in a way so my smoke doesn't affect them
2) excuse myself for 5minutes, go around the corner and smoke there
3) not smoke at all

Allright, so that's what i do. But after reading some posts in this thread i honestly have to scratch my head. seems like some people dislike smoke because it's bad for me and supposedly bad for them (present real evidence please). Also they claim i smell bad because i smoke. Well how wonderfull, if we're going to lower our selves to schoolyard insults, let me tell you that your mother is fat. If you simply say that you don't like the smell of smoke : fine.

But why am i so confused about this? Well see, i thought this was a forum about game related discussions and some off-topic threads aswell. As gamers you should realize that telling people off for something that they enjoy doing, is stupid. It's the same BS like saying that videogames make you fat, antisocial and possibly a sociopathic murderer. It's the exact same argument.
Tobacco :
Pro - I enjoy it, it relaxes me, it's stress-relief etc
Contra - you smell bad, you hurt yourself and me, you're an addict etc

Videogames :
Pro - I enjoy it, it relaxes me, it's stress-relief etc
Contra - you're turning antisocial(never going out), you possibly train yourself to kill people, you're addicted to numbers and flashy lights etc

I condensed it down a bit, but you can hopefully see where i'm coming from.


Now for the smoky issue of "yeah but i have to inhale the smoke. i don't have to play games with you, just because you're sitting next to me with an DS"
That is very true, and let me be the first one to say : i apologize for that. Like i said in the beginning, if you're honestly really bothered by my habit and the smoke makes you feel sick, i'll not smoke around you and will personally try to tell my smoker friends off if they're not as considerate as me.

The argument "smokers are bad people and stupid". Yes, this is what a child would think, isn't it. I'm amazed people can hold this up and think this is an valid argument against smokers.
But sure, i'll accept that. I'm a bad person and i'm stupid for harming myself. But atleast i'm one iota smarter than you, since i don't discriminate against people on basis of their habits. screw you wanker.

Another good one was "People start smoking because they think it makes them look cool". Well of course. That's a perfectly reasonable assumption if you live under a bridge and sustain yourself on rats. Kids and teens start to smoke because it makes them feel cool. I'd like to have chat with atleast ONE adult who started smoking because he thinks he wasn't cool and hip enough.
Hand-in-Hand with this arugment comes the "they just want to be rebels". The same flawed worldview there i dare say.


Allright, i think i gave my 2c on most the anti-smokers-BS.
Now for the reason why i smoke : Because i like to smoke. i don't need another reason. If you feel the need to tell me what i can to and i can't do, I'll have to warn you that this makes me wanna smoke a whole pack in front of you, while you preach about what a bad person i am(consiquently, i believe that many anti-smoker-preachers do it because they secretly think they have to save me. let me say 2 words to them : fuck off)

 

[Balvale]

Where's your concern for their health? How is it OK for the tobacco companies to poison smokers, but it's not OK for the smokers to poison us?

Seems to me we're just reaping what we sow.

I loath the hypocrisy of the anti-smoking movement. Bitching and whining about smokers while you're dumping 250% of your cars weight per year in toxins and greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere is pure, unadulterated hypocrisy. And don't come back at me about your electric car. More than half the electricity in the US is produced by coal fired power plants. And do you have any idea how much pollution you dumped into the environment just building your car?

I'm not a smoker, but if I was I'd blow smoke in the face of anyone who got up in my grill, too.

And then there's the little issue of personal freedom.

Living in a free society requires sacrifices, and among those sacrifices is a degree of personal safety. If you want to live in a free society then you have to accept some risks. If you'd rather live in a nanny state get the hell out of my country. I'm well armed and I pity the poor well-meaning bastard that tries to come to my house and tell me how to live my life or raise my kids because he's SOL, and if he pushes too far one of us is going home in a bag.

I doubt tobacco companies are held in high regard by the anti-smoking movement, but even if that were the case, people have the right to do what they please. Tobacco companies and smokers have a relationship that they both find accommodating. Smokers and non-smokers don't. It's not the non-smoker's job to care about what the smoker does. In fact, restricting anyone from engaging in personal activities would probably be a reprehensible violation of their freedoms.

That's not to say people aren't concerned about the health of certain smokers. I'm sure a great many are. I am.

The toxin emissions comment is a bit bogus. It amounts to "we've already got our feet in the mud, why not stick our face in their too?" One problem doesn't excuse another. Disregarding that for a second though, I can't ride a cigarette to work, a cigarette doesn't heat my house and keep my family warm, and it doesn't increase my quality of life. That last one is arguable, but it's fairly sound from a medical standpoint. Short version: cars and house heating are vulgar necessities. Cigarettes are toxic and unnecessary.


We live in a free society, yes. Your freedoms are personal and don't extend to harming others. When someone violates another person's freedoms by causing them harm, they are punished.

 

[Mid-Boss]

They are hated on way too much.
Their habit may be illogical but it's one of their weaknesses.
We all have weaknesses.

It's not, at least for me, a case of "You smoke, you're stupid, I'm going home." It's that, if you're in a relationship with that person there are a lot of things you are going to have to put up with. Yellow teeth, constant smell of smoke on them as well as yourself, second hand smoke, listening to them hack up phlegm, them tasting like an ash tray when you kiss em, constantly being slowed down by their lack of energy and desire to go have another smoke, and the very real possibility they'll develop lung cancer and die way before you do.

Unless you yourself are a smoker, smokers are poor choices for dating, marriage, etc. I've dated a few girls that smoked. The experience was short and, frankly, disgusting for all the reasons I listed above.

 

[finalguy]

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/2/3/3/60233_slide.jpg?v=1

 

[Balvale]

Once again, cars, housing, and, yes, public transit too, churn out pollutants. The difference is that they have become a necessary evil. Obviously people can take public transit and have a cleaner conscience knowing they've done less harm. They're still doing harm by traveling though. Not everyone can take a bike in to work. I certainly can't. The argument is that these are necessary compromises. Compromises that can get cleaner as technology progresses. Smoking is not at all necessary for humans to be about their business. It's poison for poison's sake.

I'm going to forgo continuing the mud analogy. If we go any further it might get a little convoluted, or dare I say, muddy...

This is probably a result of jumping in this conversation at page 14, so I may be guilty of not reading earlier points made by yourself and others. I'm fine with people walking down the street having a drag. People should be able to do whatever the hell they want to do. Personal freedoms should be absolute. Closed environments are what bothers me, because at that point it's not me getting into their business, it's them getting into mine.

 

[CheshirePhoenix]

Cars are a luxury. Take a bus, ride a bike, or take the subway. Hell, you can even call a taxi.

If you're basing your opinion on "facts" that are rather pathetic and blatant lies, then your opinion is wrong. Period.

If you don't like the way I smell, fine. If you don't like the way my lips and tongue taste when you kiss me, that's fine as well. But that's your right - MY right is to do what I want to do in the places where I'm still allowed to do it without you coming up to me and spouting your uninformed opinion.

Period.

 

[Moromillas]

No, I certainly think smokers are still let off easy, and their constant defensiveness whenever challenged is something I find endlessly annoying. I have NO tolerance for smoking and I'm not shy about letting you know it- if you smoke near me I will pointedly move away from you.

And I am SO SICK of smokers defending themselves with the same meaningless and irrelevent arguments they keep spamming out any time someone dares question their right to poison the world and everyone around them. "Cars and industrial pollution do far more damage than cigarette smoke" they whine. "Cars and industry are necessary evils of modern day human existence," I counter "while cigarettes are a meaningless, totally optional and thoroughly disgusting luxury product. There's a huge difference between shooting wild animals and destroying their habitats to make an area of land safe to live in and farm wheat on, and shooting wild animals and destroying their habitats to make fur coats and farm cannibis."

I also think people are a bit too harsh on the smokers, while I do not support smokers, I do not believe they should so publicly hated. People argue that they are killing themselves, but are people drinking alcohol and eating fast food not killing themselves, yet I don't see people being as harsh on these people as they do on smokers. I think that the media also has a large role in effecting how people view the topic as well.

The problem ISN'T that they're killing themselves. Hell, personally I couldn't care less if they're killing themselves- that's their choice, just like people who drink themselves blind or stuff themselves with crap until they need bigger pants. The problem with smoking is that it's invasive and toxic and to make matters worse it breeds an inherent self-centredness in the people who do it. While alcohol can start fights, cause accidents, or be responsible for domestic abuse, at least this varies from person to person and only results from a considerable excessive misuse of it. I drink a little, but I've NEVER been drunk in my life and have NEVER done something I've regretted because of alcohol. But even normal use of tobacco is unavoidably harmful (tobacco is literally nothing less than a poison) which affects not only the smoker but everyone around them. The smoke drifts around in a wide area around the smoker to be inhaled by people who wouldn't smoke a cigarette at gunpoint and they don't even get the benefit of inhaling it through the filter first! And when it comes to parents who smoke around their children or even while pregnant... well, sometimes I wonder why we don't need a license to breed.

And then there's the thing that enrages me the most- WAY too many smokers (not all of them, but the vast majority that I've seen) are dirty, self-centred and lazy. Even if they're not smoking near another person, their poison still drifts into the air and, even worse, their litter end up on th ground or eventually in the water- and they act like it simply doesn't matter. When I see a smoker casually flick a cigarette butt onto the ground and walk away without even bothering to stub it out with their foot when they're standing less than 10 feet away from an ashtray or garbage bin then I have to restrain the urge to chase them down, grab them by the scruff of the neck and scream at them "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!". Fortunately I've managed to control this urge by channelling my rage into a new habit I have, where I pick up the smoking butt, sneak up behind them and drop it into either the open top of any bag they're carrying or, if they don't have one, down the back of their shirt or jacket and beat it before they notice. I think that's what we call "poetic justice".

Yeah, I never really understood it either. So they smoke? What right does anyone have to tell them otherwise.

It's the 21st century. OF COURSE THEY KNOW IT'S BAD FOR THEM. They just don't care. In a way, I admire them for that.

It's bad for everyone else as well and they don't care about that either. So someone drinks? What right does anyone have to tell them they can't drive a car? Oh wait...

Hmm, no, these arguments don't hold any weight at all.

Your direct complaint is the consideration value of others who smoke. How considerate or how inconsiderate they are is not dependent on weather they smoke or not, nor does having a smoke equate to having a low consideration of others.

I see these logical fallacies happening quite a bit and it's unfortunate, but that's how it is I guess.

What I mean is: If someone who is supposedly a representative for a group (in this case smokers) does something inconsiderate, others may wonder "are all smokers actually that inconsiderate?" To make them think that it was out of the ordinary, they would have to see a few smokers being considerate. Should they come across more than one smoker that is doing the wrong thing, well, it then takes quite a lot of smokers doing the right thing to make them decide that those two smokers are out of the ordinary or unusual, rather than 'every smoker is inconsiderate.'

Hmm, well yes I suppose when you look at it from that angle that may be true. Maybe it IS just 99% of inconsiderate smokers who unfairly give the other 1% a bad name?*

(*Numbers adjusted for hyperbolic purposes)

Rhetoric aside. You really think the vast majority of people are inconsiderate? Is that really the case where you are? Might be nice just up and get to somewhere greener.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I think that as a deal breaker is actually fine. I don't want to be spending my time with someone who smells like cigarette smoke, or indeed at someone's place which smells like smoke.

 

[notyouraveragejoe]

I'm a smoker and I don't really agree. I mean I've got some friends who ***** and moan about it occasionally but no-one has been hellish about it. Even one of my closest friends who disapproves of it doesn't make comments but just states that they are there to help me quit if I want to. Although I've visited a few places where it is socially unacceptable to smoke so I understand that it can be treated way too harshly in some areas. Fortunately that isn't true where I live.

 

[Devornine]

I will post these again! Please watch them before trying to tell people that second hand smoke kills!

You realize they were proven wrong about that and they admitted they were wrong right?

That's cool. I still agree with the rest of the episode. I posted it more for the rights of the people... not that second hand smoke doesn't kill. What doesn't kill ya these days?

 

[mrdude2010]

no, it's just what i've heard... i've kissed girls who smoke before and just didn't find it pleasant.. i suppose the tobacco smoke residue on their tongue threw me off it really wasn't a taste i liked.. probably part of the reason i didn't smoke

It's a human tongue, it's not meant to taste nice, you're actually mere millimeters away from it being cannibalism. If, when you kiss someone, you're reminded of your favourite meal you've got far more to worry about than if it tasted like smoke.

it usually is just a fairly neutral kind of taste that's easy to ignore (unless they've been chewing gum)... i just don't like it really it's more my opinion than an objective judgement.

 

[Angry_squirrel]

I don't mind if friends do it, but I'd have trouble going out with a smoker.

 

[johnbo]

Easy way to test if anti smoker are suffering too much hateful talk, lets replace one word in some of the things people have said, apologies for the language but lets see what some peoples words look like if we replace the work "smoker" with the word "black", jeez, i'm gonna be banned for this for sure

does this sound reasonable:-

"blacks smell, all the time. Their homes smell, all the time. And they taste like fried chicken when you go to kiss them. I've tried dating them, its unpleasant"

"blacks are idiots, one can never be too harsh in the effort of punishing idiocy"

"the reason i dislike blacks is partly cause they smell (have i mentioned that?) and partly because it is so pointlessly useless"

"I hate the sneaky bastards, you think your clear of the horde and then all of a sudden a black grabs you and tries to choke you to death with its tongue, I would take a sledgehammer to all of their heads if I could... bastards killed Bill *tear*"

"I have friends who are blacks, but I won't let them be black indoors, in my car, or stay overnight."

"they're not hated on enough in my opinion. but i'm a irritable person, so when ever someone starts listening to rap music, i feel the need to beat them to death with a cane."

"Would I date a black? Nope. I've seen first hand the potential health effects being black can have, and I don't want to put myself through that. It also costs a small fortune, smells terrible, and makes a mess in your home."

"blacks smell. That's based on a fact, not a bigotted opinion.
blacks taste like fried chicken. That's based on a fact, not a bigotted opinion."

"basically being around a black is harmful to YOU as well - i don't care if someone is black, just don't do it when I'm around or I'm just going to walk away."

"Of course there are side-points to be cleared, for example wheather or not blacks should recieve lower sallaries for the breakes they take. "

i could go on and on.

 

[Twilight.falls]

Didn't have time to read the entire thread.

Yes, I think people are a little unfair to smokers. Now, I'm not a smoker, and I generally dislike smoking, but one has to realize that smokers are people too. People that have made a choice that not everyone agrees with, but it's just petty to think less of a person because of it. Of course, I'll try to keep my distance because I don't like the smell, but I don't hold anything against the smoker for that.

Anyway, I don't think people should be nearly as hard on smokers as they are. Smokers aren't evil, they may just be troubled.

 

[CheshirePhoenix]

Total awesomeness of win.

You sir, win the internet. Several of them, actually.

Edit: I fail at BBCode.

 

[sasha_1315]

I made an account just to comment on this thread.
I am a smoker, by choice, just like other people are not smokers, by choice.
I don't tell non-smokers to smoke, so don't tell me not to. I would also like to add that I do not smell like smoke, even after I just had one. Anyone who saw me smoking for the first time was surprised and told me they would have never known because I don't smell like smoke like most smokers do.
I would also like to add that 99% of my friends and family do not smoke. But they are never rude to me about it and I'm not sitting there blowing smoke in their face. I can go outside and breathe in my cigarette alone. It is strangers that are generally rude, and very misinformed strangers at that. I am more aware of the health risks of smoker, moreso than a non-smoker, but it is impossible to quit for someone else and I'm not ready to quit for myself yet.

When I say "health risks", I'm talking about the health risks of directly smoking. There are absolutely no proven health risks of so-called "second-hand smoke disease".
Before everyone starts spouting off about how there is and oh now there's third-hand smoke disease (ridiculous) I strongly suggest you keep your opinion to yourself until you've watched Penn & Teller Bullsh*t! Second Hand Smoke and Baby Bullsh*t (season 1 episode 5). Just google it and watch it.
The episode explains how all the information that you've ever heard about "second-hand smoke disease" was from one biased study, that was actually thrown out of court for having falsified results. The real results were that there was no difference in health or longevity between people who had never been around cigarette smoke and people who lived all their life in a house with people that smoked inside. The results were falsified to satisfy some business owners or something and give them a reason to disallow smoking in establishments. Word got out about the study, and the falsified results became well-known and "general knowledge", while the fact that it was all untrue never became well-known.

Now I am not so naive to say that there is no health risks associated with second-hand smoke but at this time there is no proven health risks.

And you know what? I smoke, but I don't like inhaling other people's second-hand smoke either. It smells gross. I enjoy my own cigarette, but I don't particularly enjoy being around smoke coming from cigarettes that aren't mine.
If you have a problem with me smoking near you, I have no problem moving away if you ask me politely. I understand that you may not like the smell or the smoke may bother your eyes. But if you tell me to get away from you with that cigarette, because I'm killing you and everyone else around me with my second-hand smoke, I will tell you to grow up and educate yourself instead of repeating what you've heard without knowledge about it.

Because in all honesty, there is no reason I can't smoke wherever I want. There is no proven "health risk" of you breathing in my second hand smoke. It just bothers you. Well you know what, people with B.O. bother me, and I can't kick them out of the bar for smelling bad. There is no proven health risk of smelling body odor either, even though it's disgusting and could be easily fixed by taking a shower.
What bothers me even more is rude people. So if you are rude to me when I'm smoking, don't expect me to cater to your whims. Be polite, and I think most smokers would also be polite and not smoke around you.

 

[dee77777]

Why don't non-smokers mind their own business? Let me smoke in peace. If I'm not smoking around non-smokers/babies/kids/etc., why should it matter? I already know what it's doing to my body, but I really don't care. I simply enjoy smoking and want to be left alone about it.

 

[minimacker]

It's not the smoke/cigarette itself, it's what the general smoker is doing. Don't stand in the doorway, puffing the cigarette. Especially if it's a restaurant and you work there.

If I want to go into your place and have lunch, I don't want to go through 5 people standing in a cluster next to the doors, completely making my nose and tastebuds disinterested in your delicious cuisine.

 

[dee77777]

Reply to Sasha:

I completely agree! (by the way, I also just set up this account to reply to this forum, lol)

Just one thing, though, it has actually been shown that kids who live in a household where people smoke indoors have a higher chance of getting asthma.

And you're also very right about how it's impossible to quit for someone else. I've tried quitting for three different non-smoking boyfriends, only to start smoking again after ending those relationships. To avoid this situation from now on, I'll only date smokers.

 

[sasha_1315]

Thanks dee,

I didn't know that about the asthma! But I am usually skeptical and would tend to think cause and effect.. did being around smoke cause asthma, did being around smoke cause asthma to become more apparent, or possibly people with asthma are just plain more likely to live with someone who smokes (of the cross-section of people in the study). Likely not the case, it is possible that being around smoke causes asthma, but you never know the circumstances of a particular study, especially when the government feels pressure to give results in favor of non-smokers. I had asthma when I was young and my dad smoked, but I never saw him do it (he would leave the house for every smoke b/c my mom was a non-smoker). Now I smoke but I grew out of my asthma probably 8-9 years ago and I started smoking 9 years ago (a coincidence most likely).

I totally agree trying to date someone who smokes when you don't or vice versa is difficult. My husband smokes as well, but I would like us both to quit before we have kids (not because of 2nd hand smoke but b/c of example). That I think is the hard thing- if we quit one at a time it would be impossible to handle the smell on the other person, and if we quit together we would probably end in divorce haha! Not really, but you know what I mean!