Are we communists?!

[Grab-bag]

Right, before I start I want to make it clear that I don't support any of the things mentioned in this thread, I just thought about it and wanted to see what others thought. Now then, everyone in the world knows the swastika as the sign of the Nazi Party and many know the hammer and sickle as a sign of the USSR. The communist USSR, under Stalin killed at least 17 million Russians, or Russian speakers. Hitler, though still crazy, killed about 10 million at least. (This isn't counting the death toll of the war, I see that as every nation involved.) Anyway, my point is, how come, though the leaders of the USSR are responsible for many more deaths, why is it acceptable for people to wear T-shirts, hoodies, accessories etc with the hammer and sickle on, but if someone was to walk around with a Swastika T-shirt, they would get so much more hate and disapproval talks. Is this just because the Nazis were seen as the bad guys because they were the main enemy or is it something more of a cult thing that spread? I just want to know what you guys think. (This is just a brief overview, without going into the Nazi-soviet pact, the hammer and sickle in modern communist parties etc.)

 

[AnarchistFish]

The USSR were closer to fascism than communism, they weren't a properly socialist society. The hammer and sickle represents communism, not the USSR, whereas the swastika specifically represents the Nazis (in this context).

 

[Soviet Steve]

The Nazis went out with an intention of killing 90-98% (Estimate, anyone outside of Germany and Scandinavia without blue eyes and blonde hair was to be killed) of the world's population because they favored certain aesthetic traits. They fully embraced slavery and mass extermination as completely sensible policies, and they believed that might makes right.

The Communists, although in practice differing little from the Nazis, at least had their morality and goals in order. Their ideals aren't repulsive to the western mind, the majority simply accepts that we cannot create a utopia yet.

Also worth noting is that the communists had many decades in peace to let their corruption and incompetence vanquish millions, whereas the facists went into it with disturbing enthusiasm even as the whole world was working to destroy them, butchering innocent men women and children of conquered populations. If we had seen their places reversed, with Nazis in power for decades across large parts of the world, we would have seen death tolls on the less comfortable side of the billions.

TL;DR

Communist told people he didn't have food.
Nazi went out of his way to heard them into gas chambers.

The first is an idiot, the second is pure evil.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Probably because the swastika is pretty much a symbol for antisemitism.

Stalin killed millions of Russians, but I don't think their race/religion had anything to do with it (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[mrscott137]

Because Stalin killed 17 million of his OWN people to fast track an industrial revolution, whereas Hitler was a fascist who killed people of other nations and saw some people better than others. Main difference- it was Stalin's own people and for a better reason than 'Fuck those guys because they ain't Aryan'. Not that that is a particular support for Stalin, but more why people hate him less, and because since he fought as 'Uncle Joe' In WWII against Hitler, that's what people remember him for, he was a bad man, but he had just as many 'Good' Points as he did fuck ups to other nations, so not as bad as Hitler.

 

[Miles000]

Because the Nazis lost the war.
The Soviets won it.

History is written by the victor.

Edit: Yes, I know there is a lot more to it than that...

 

[Spectral Dragon]

It's because of the ideals, I think. The nazi party's ideals are that some people are worth less than others, and therefore it's okay to kill them.
Granted, Stalin was insane, but there's no direct connection between his atrocities and the USSR symbol, which is more of a symbol for communism nowadays. It wasn't the communist ideal to kill anyone. It was the looney dictator's fault. Well, it was with Hitler too, but his ideals and the nazi party's were the same.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

First off, I think you meant you do not support any of the things mentioned in this thread.

Second, people who wear accessories with the hammer and sickle on more often than not do so because they think its some really big and clever anti-capitalist statement (often overlooking the fact that what they are wearing was probably made by an 11 year old Chinese girl in a sweatshop and sold to them for a huge profit), in other words, they're dicks. They don't actively endorse what the Soviets did to their own people, they're just ignorant to it. It isn't quite as bad as the people who wear Swastika's because they genuinely believe the Nazis had the right idea, but I still have to repress the desire to be sick all over them when I see them.

 

[Sarmos]

"A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths, is merely a statistic."
Joesoph Stalin.

I for one have always been facinated by communinsim and the whole of USSR. I met a family of Russians once and a few of them had lived and worked in Moscow. They said that yeah, freedom was nice and all, but "At least back then everyone had a job." Unemployment from what I understand is a real big problem in Eastern Europe right now.

 

[DefunctTheory]

From a Westerners (American) stand point, is quite simple: we observed, quite intimately, the evils of Germany. We have museums dedicated to the slaughter Hitler and his regime committed. We have survivors of the event living among us, and our oldest generation, that spent their 20s digging up mass graves, still tell their stories.

Compare this to Russia, who, for the most part, kept their crimes in their (ever expanding) borders. While satellite wars were fought, me never had to clean up their mess, or liberate their prisons. We only know of Stalin's internal genocide intellectually, at an arms length. Stalin's murders happened in dark corners as fair as we can tell (Of course, not really), while Germany's were seen on news reels.

That being said, I have never, in my life, seen ANYONE wear either symbols. I have only seen the swastika displayed in public in South Korea, but it was used by Buddhist (Scared the shit out of me the first time I saw it, though).

I strongly doubt anyone with any good sense uses either symbol now a days, lest they get their balls turned to paste.

Probably because the swastika is pretty much a symbol for antisemitism.

Stalin killed millions of Russians, but I don't think their race/religion had anything to do with it (correct me if I'm wrong).

For the most part, it didn't. Gypsy and Jews were targeted on occasions, but it had less to do with the race and more to do with the life style (Both were, at the time, highly secular. Not really in line with the 'Party First' ideal).

Stalin was an equal opportunities genocidal maniac. Though, later in life (IE A little before he died/was murdered), their was apparently some plan to go after Jewish/Christian Russians. Most people attribute it to brain rot, though.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Probably because the swastika is pretty much a symbol for antisemitism.

Stalin killed millions of Russians, but I don't think their race/religion had anything to do with it (correct me if I'm wrong).

Racism wasn't as prominent within the Soviet Union as it was in Nazi Germany, but only because they didn't shout about it so much. In Russia the Slavic minority in the West had everything, whilst the Chechen's in the South, the Mongols in the East, the Inuits in the North, and also the Jews, had nothing and were often brutally persecuted.

 

[AnarchistFish]

Probably because the swastika is pretty much a symbol for antisemitism.

Stalin killed millions of Russians, but I don't think their race/religion had anything to do with it (correct me if I'm wrong).

Ukraineans maybe? Not sure, but it rings a bell.

 

[steevee]

The Nazis went out with an intention of killing 90-98% (Estimate, anyone outside of Germany and Scandinavia without blue eyes and blonde hair was to be killed) of the world's population because they favored certain aesthetic traits. They fully embraced slavery and mass extermination as completely sensible policies, and they believed that might makes right.

The Communists, although in practice differing little from the Nazis, at least had their morality and goals in order. Their ideals aren't repulsive to the western mind, the majority simply accepts that we cannot create a utopia yet.

Also worth noting is that the communists had many decades in peace to let their corruption and incompetence vanquish millions, whereas the facists went into it with disturbing enthusiasm even as the whole world was working to destroy them, butchering innocent men women and children of conquered populations. If we had seen their places reversed, with Nazis in power for decades across large parts of the world, we would have seen death tolls on the less comfortable side of the billions.

TL;DR

Communist told people he didn't have food.
Nazi went out of his way to heard them into gas chambers.

The first is an idiot, the second is pure evil.

Ok, I'm sorry but I have to jump on this. The claim that the NAzi's wanted to kill 98% of the worlds population is totally false. The Nazi party didn't even want world domination. They were happy with mainland Europe. They had no plans to come into conflict with America or Britain, we threw ourselves in there. They wanted a German Empire where the Arian rase was perfection, but the genocide was resitricted to ethnic minorities and those that did not fit with the Germanic ideal. Even then, extermination was not their first port of call, death camps only came into being in the 40's when it was not feasible to move on the problem of ethnic minorities.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Nazi and I think what they did was horrific, but don;t try and paint them as some Super Viliians, because they patently were not.

 

[Staskala]

Right, before I start I want to make it clear that I do support any of the things mentioned in this thread, I just thought about it and wanted to see what others thought. Now then, everyone in the world knows the swastika as the sign of the Nazi Party and many know the hammer and sickle as a sign of the USSR. The communist USSR, under Stalin killed at least 17 million Russians, or Russian speakers. Hitler, though still crazy, killed about 10 million at least. (This isn't counting the death toll of the war, I see that as every nation involved.) Anyway, my point is, how come, though the leaders of the USSR are responsible for many more deaths, why is it acceptable for people to wear T-shirts, hoodies, accessories etc with the hammer and sickle on, but if someone was to walk around with a Swastika T-shirt, they would get so much more hate and disapproval talks. Is this just because the Nazis were seen as the bad guys because they were the main enemy or is it something more of a cult thing that spread? I just want to know what you guys think.

Because you're only describing the situation in the West which was at war with the Nazis but not (really) with the Soviets?
Try walking aroud with a hammer-and-sickle T-shirt in Hungary or any other Soviet-occupied nation and see how well that goes.
Not to mention that the kind of person who would walk around with such a T-shirt tends to know fuck all about communism.

The USSR were closer to fascism than communism, they weren't a properly socialist society. The hammer and sickle represents communism, not the USSR, whereas the swastika specifically represents the Nazis (in this context).

It's a 100% Russian symbol; they invented it, they used it. It was only later adopted by other communist nations and movements.
And no, the Soviets were true communists if you define "communist" as following the teachings Marx and Engels outlined, with the only difference being that Lenin thought a violent revolution was the way to go while Marx thought it should be the last possible means.

 

[Happy_Mutant]

I agree with spectral dragon. The hammer and sickle predates the Soviet empire, and there really wasn't anything in its core ideology of communism or socialism that most people (outside of libertarians and objectivists) would consider truly "evil." Nazism, however, was just state-endorsed hate.

I'd argue that having a t-shirt with Stalin on it would be almost the equivalent of a swastika. Has anyone seen one of those? I mean, outside of the obviously-ironic?

 

[FreakSheet]

I'm pretty sure its cause Stalin just cut off supplies and left them (horrible, but still) While the Nazi's were organized in their murder and kept records.

Not to mention, I don't believe Stalin tried to conquer the world.

 

[AnarchistFish]

The USSR were closer to fascism than communism, they weren't a properly socialist society. The hammer and sickle represents communism, not the USSR, whereas the swastika specifically represents the Nazis (in this context).

It's a 100% Russian symbol; they invented it, they used it. It was only later adopted by other communist nations.

Yeah, that's the point. It kinda represents the whole movement, although tbh I don't see many communists using it cos it still has that taboo.

Anyway, the hammer and sickle represents what the USSR was meant to be- a socialist utopia. The swastika represents Nazi beliefs, i.e. anti-semitism. So the hammer and sickle doesn't really represent the USSR's genocides like the swastika does with Nazi Germany.

 

[KillKill]

I think a big reason's that not many people really know about what Stalin did before the war.