Are we creating a generation of victims?

[Dango]

No, it just seems like it because teenagers in every generation have had similar sentiments, this generation just has the internet to talk about it though.

 

[Phasmal]

You said you took issue with that one part of the whole post, and I had no attachment to what I said. I could have picked Oprah or... well fuck, I don't KNOW! That part of my point wasn't WHAT woman watch, just that they have shows that are geared for what they like, and I'm not going to say that it needs changing based on what I like. I wasn't ready to get into discussing that tiny part with you in a thread about people being whiny and "victims"

I think you missed my point. Twice.

My issue isn't you said Gilmore Girls.
My issue is you seem to have picked a random example of `women things for women` and implied that games are `men things for men`, which is what I took issue with.

Hopefully that makes my point more clear.

 

[Signa]

You said you took issue with that one part of the whole post, and I had no attachment to what I said. I could have picked Oprah or... well fuck, I don't KNOW! That part of my point wasn't WHAT woman watch, just that they have shows that are geared for what they like, and I'm not going to say that it needs changing based on what I like. I wasn't ready to get into discussing that tiny part with you in a thread about people being whiny and "victims"

I think you missed my point. Twice.

My issue isn't you said Gilmore Girls.
My issue is you seem to have picked a random example of `women things for women` and implied that games are `men things for men`, which is what I took issue with.

Hopefully that makes my point more clear.

I guess that does make more sense. I don't entirely agree, but mostly on the basis that there are things that I just simply don't enjoy, but A LOT of other people do. A good unisex example would be Game of Thrones. I'd be a lot more interested in it if they turned up the fantasy and turned down the sex and nudity, but I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for making the show they way they have, and I'm not going to tell fans to stop enjoying it either. It's just not for me.

 

[Phasmal]

I guess that does make more sense. I don't entirely agree, but mostly on the basis that there are things that I just simply don't enjoy, but A LOT of other people do. A good unisex example would be Game of Thrones. I'd be a lot more interested in it if they turned up the fantasy and turned down the sex and nudity, but I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for making the show they way they have, and I'm not going to tell fans to stop enjoying it either. It's just not for me.

I don't know if I agree.
From all your examples you are using, you are approaching it as a non-fan wanting things to change, which is not what's happening with games.

Trust me, me and other ladies wouldn't bother with all this if we weren't fans.

And I honestly can't remember the last time I told anyone not to enjoy something, and I'm probably one of the more prominent irritating feminists on this site, if I do say so myself.

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Vegosiux]

I guess that does make more sense. I don't entirely agree, but mostly on the basis that there are things that I just simply don't enjoy, but A LOT of other people do. A good unisex example would be Game of Thrones. I'd be a lot more interested in it if they turned up the fantasy and turned down the sex and nudity, but I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for making the show they way they have, and I'm not going to tell fans to stop enjoying it either. It's just not for me.

I don't know if I agree.
From all your examples you are using, you are approaching it as a non-fan wanting things to change, which is not what's happening with games.

Trust me, me and other ladies wouldn't bother with all this if we weren't fans.

And I honestly can't remember the last time I told anyone not to enjoy something, and I'm probably one of the more prominent irritating feminists on this site, if I do say so myself.

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thing is, "fan of videogames" is just a too broad term to use. it's literally equivalent in analogy to "fan of TV shows". Of course not every TV show, or every game will cater to you!

Yet I fail to see the commotion about how no (or not enough) reality show features minorities (honestly, link me some examples if you have them), or how come there's no (or not enough) fat people in fashion shows.

 

[Phasmal]

Thing is, "fan of videogames" is just a too broad term to use. it's literally equivalent in analogy to "fan of TV shows". Of course not every TV show, or every game will cater to you!

Yet I fail to see the commotion about how no (or not enough) reality show features minorities (honestly, link me some examples if you have them), or how come there's no (or not enough) fat people in fashion shows.

Ok, I'm a fan of triple-A games. I've got a taste for western RPGS. I enjoy an FPS. Sandbox games are my kinda thing. Beat-em-ups are super fun. I've been known to indulge in an RTS from time to time. JRPGS are all right with me. Driving games are pretty cool too.
That's a little less broad for you.

I'm not sure what you're driving at? That the people who are complaining need to give their gaming resumé cause `fan of video games` is too broad?

Also- there's no pushback towards men in TV. People don't freak out when they see a guy watching TV. People don't assume TV is a guy thing (or really a girl thing either). I'd like gaming to be more like that.

And honestly reality shows or fashion shows could not be further from things I care about.

 

[Vegosiux]

Ok, I'm a fan of triple-A games. I've got a taste for western RPGS. I enjoy an FPS. Sandbox games are my kinda thing. Beat-em-ups are super fun. I've been known to indulge in an RTS from time to time. JRPGS are all right with me. Driving games are pretty cool too.
That's a little less broad for you.

I'm not sure what you're driving at? That the people who are complaining need to give their gaming resumé cause `fan of video games` is too broad?

Not at all. I'm saying that if you're a fan of something that broad, there's simply so much variety to that "something" that you'll likely run into parts you don't like, so your complaints should be more specific.

"Hey, I've played 20 first person games this year and all of them wanted me to play a bloke" is different than "I can't play anything other than a guy in any game I've tried!"

In the latter case, I'll simply shove a lot of games that don't have a male protagonist at you without caring what genre you actually like. In the former case, I'll say "You know, that bugs me too, I wanna play a woman in a first-person game myself."

 

[Phasmal]

Not at all. I'm saying that if you're a fan of something that broad, there's simply so much variety to that "something" that you'll likely run into parts you don't like, so your complaints should be more specific.

"Hey, I've played 20 first person games this year and all of them wanted me to play a bloke" is different than "I can't play anything other than a guy in any game I've tried!"

In the latter case, I'll simply shove a lot of games that don't have a male protagonist at you without caring what genre you actually like. In the former case, I'll say "You know, that bugs me too, I wanna play a woman in a first-person game myself."

Absolutely you run into stuff you don't like. Gamers are notorious complainers anyway. You could probably find any aspect of any game and find someone who is unhappy with it.

Eh, as for myself, I think my complaints have always been pretty specific (I hope so, I've been barking up this tree for like ten years).

And I actually just stopped to think if I have any games that are first person with lady protags. Nope. Sucks. Then again I only have like one FPS right now because if I put a game down for more than two seconds my boyfriend trades it in.

I get these conversations can be annoying if you don't care about gender in games.
But equally, if you don't care about it, it's pretty easy for you. You can just avoid the discussions and play the games you like.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Well not real victims, just self created victims. For instance is their being a female Assassin Creed really that big a deal to any of our lives? A black Lara Croft? A square Pacman? Mario being an electrician? Link being gay? Its easy to moan about stuff online but none of it effects our offline lives one bit.

 

[generals3]

Well not real victims, just self created victims. For instance is their being a female Assassin Creed really that big a deal to any of our lives? A black Lara Croft? A square Pacman? Mario being an electrician? Link being gay? Its easy to moan about stuff online but none of it effects our offline lives one bit.

You know, complaining about these things isn't really what makes them self created victims. What does is their act that somehow they're powerless victims of "the system". Which i find rather odd since the system, in this case, is basically a profit oriented one and on that aspect everyone's money is equal. If the system fails you it's actually because either your group failed to take responsibility as consumers or because your group is just that smaller and consequently doesn't really deserve more attention (in which case the system is not failing anyone). It's a bit like the banking crisis, no one ever asked any question to the banks they threw their money at and than people act all surprised when it appears they were doing weird stuff. I mean nobody forced those poor victims to choose the less transparent banks because they offered higher interests. They got exactly what they deserved. Before asking what others can do for you ask yourself what you can do for yourself. But that seems to be a lost art and now it's all about blaming the others.

 

[ThatDarnCoyote]

And I actually just stopped to think if I have any games that are first person with lady protags. Nope. Sucks. Then again I only have like one FPS right now because if I put a game down for more than two seconds my boyfriend trades it in.

What?? Make him cut that out!!

On the topic of first-person games with female protagonists, I'm assuming you've already played the Portal games and Mirrors Edge?

 

[Phasmal]

And I actually just stopped to think if I have any games that are first person with lady protags. Nope. Sucks. Then again I only have like one FPS right now because if I put a game down for more than two seconds my boyfriend trades it in.

What?? Make him cut that out!!

On the topic of first-person games with female protagonists, I'm assuming you've already played the Portal games and Mirrors Edge?

I know, he always regrets it, too. We need to re-buy Xcom now.

And I ALWAYS forget about Portal, because you don't really shoot people and that's what I associate it with.
And yeah I did play Mirror's Edge but I was trying for the no-violence achievement (something along those lines) so I never ended up picking up a gun, funnily enough.

 

[Vegosiux]

And I ALWAYS forget about Portal, because you don't really shoot people and that's what I associate it with.
And yeah I did play Mirror's Edge but I was trying for the no-violence achievement (something along those lines) so I never ended up picking up a gun, funnily enough.

The reason I didn't pick up gins there was they were large and unwieldy. But, to actually reply, yes, problem is that if you don't care about gender at all, these sorts of threads get annoying.

But now question is; do you want people to not care about gender, or do you want them to care about gender when it comes to the games?

Ideally, nobody caring about it would be rather lovely...and simply put protag creation tools into everything, so everyone can simply design what they like. If anyone complains that's too much work and the industry should cater to them, just kick them away.

 

[ThatDarnCoyote]

And I ALWAYS forget about Portal, because you don't really shoot people and that's what I associate it with.
And yeah I did play Mirror's Edge but I was trying for the no-violence achievement (something along those lines) so I never ended up picking up a gun, funnily enough.

Yeah, there's an achievement for never firing a gun, and honestly, that game flows better if you don't bother with shooting.

Hmm...for more traditional FPS-type games, there's the Perfect Dark games (though they're pretty old), the Borderlands games, and you have the option to play as a female soldier in Halo: Reach.

There's also Oblivion, Skyrim, and the later Fallout games, where you can create a female character.

If you're into competitive shooters, you can play as a female character in Call of Duty: Ghosts (though personally I found that game disappointing) or Gotham City Impostors (which is goofy and a little rough, but quite fun).

Captcha: "oops a daisy". Make of that what you will.

 

[Signa]

I guess that does make more sense. I don't entirely agree, but mostly on the basis that there are things that I just simply don't enjoy, but A LOT of other people do. A good unisex example would be Game of Thrones. I'd be a lot more interested in it if they turned up the fantasy and turned down the sex and nudity, but I'm not going to tell them they are wrong for making the show they way they have, and I'm not going to tell fans to stop enjoying it either. It's just not for me.

I don't know if I agree.
From all your examples you are using, you are approaching it as a non-fan wanting things to change, which is not what's happening with games.

Trust me, me and other ladies wouldn't bother with all this if we weren't fans.

And I honestly can't remember the last time I told anyone not to enjoy something, and I'm probably one of the more prominent irritating feminists on this site, if I do say so myself.

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree.

WRONG!

If you were one of the more irritating feminists on here, you'd still be trying to shove your opinion down my throat, instead of trying to agree to disagree. Thank you for being level-headed enough to discuss.

Back on our disagreement, I think you pin-pointed where a lot of the dissonance comes from. I feel we both are speaking on general terms for the situation, but are focused on slightly different aspects. You're completely right that I'm coming from a "non-fan wanting things to change" position, but I'd argue that someone wouldn't be a fan in the first place if they were unhappy with the way things are.

In an effort to actually spin this back to the actual thread topic, I would say that I am a fan that is looking for change. The thing is, I'm not unhappy with the interpretation of one aspect of gaming, I'm unhappy with the majority of the AAA industry. The big business aspect has pushed gaming into the consciousness of the mainstream public, but at the same time, the quality of the titles have become entirely homogenous; Lazy writing, and weak efforts to produce games that people will buy and play puts feminism on the back burner of the check boxes every game must tick. I believe that we have raised a generation of whiners and victims that will focus on the lack of that feminism check box in each game, and raise as much hell as they can about it. The problem is the publishers are too scared to do anything about it (see Jim Sterling's episode on how Resident Evil 6 is horror embodied) in case they lose sales. The feminists and extreme whiners are right that games can be changed for the better, but focusing on whether a game meets an individual's criteria for being pro-feminist is just addressing a symptom instead of the real problem.

 

[Signa]

And I actually just stopped to think if I have any games that are first person with lady protags. Nope. Sucks. Then again I only have like one FPS right now because if I put a game down for more than two seconds my boyfriend trades it in.

What?? Make him cut that out!!

On the topic of first-person games with female protagonists, I'm assuming you've already played the Portal games and Mirrors Edge?

I know, he always regrets it, too. We need to re-buy Xcom now.

And I ALWAYS forget about Portal, because you don't really shoot people and that's what I associate it with.
And yeah I did play Mirror's Edge but I was trying for the no-violence achievement (something along those lines) so I never ended up picking up a gun, funnily enough.

Find yourself a copy of No One Lives Forever. That game was AMAZING. It's the best argument that I have to say that Halo set games back 10-15 years. Only now are we starting to see games attempting what NOLF and NOLF 2 did in 2000.

 

[spartan231490]

OH abso-fuckin-lutely. We have convinced an entire generation that being offended means you are correct. Of course that is going to create a generation that does nothing but play the victim. They have been taught that being the victim means getting their way. Why take responsibility and try when you can blame someone else and get what you want immediately?

 

[gargantual]

And I actually just stopped to think if I have any games that are first person with lady protags. Nope. Sucks. Then again I only have like one FPS right now because if I put a game down for more than two seconds my boyfriend trades it in.

What?? Make him cut that out!!

On the topic of first-person games with female protagonists, I'm assuming you've already played the Portal games and Mirrors Edge?

I know, he always regrets it, too. We need to re-buy Xcom now.

And I ALWAYS forget about Portal, because you don't really shoot people and that's what I associate it with.
And yeah I did play Mirror's Edge but I was trying for the no-violence achievement (something along those lines) so I never ended up picking up a gun, funnily enough.

Find yourself a copy of No One Lives Forever. That game was AMAZING. It's the best argument that I have to say that Halo set games back 10-15 years. Only now are we starting to see games attempting what NOLF and NOLF 2 did in 2000.

Yep you're right. Brought to us by the makers of F.E.A.R.

This was back when studios had a little more control and really didn't give a shit either way. Choosing protagonists was never a battle of the sexes, they were just exploring characters, and despite how arcadey some games seem now, in retrospect, some were far more honest, and thought through than this maturity facade era we've been though.

I hope from all these dev layoffs that we actually get more new relatively smaller dev teams that arent scams, that rise up to continue redefining FPS, 3PS, reinvigorate all the other vehicular, sport and abstract genres that were cynically abandoned for wii-like party games in the console space this past gen, and explore different all personalites black, white latino indian just because its best for the story or they just felt like it, and don't have marketing boards sticking their dirty claws where they don't belong.

Its the megapublishers buying up whatevers hot and trying to oversaturate the dudebro theme aesthetic that annoys me. Ladies and folks of different color all need their fantasies in media, and Power fantasy and titillation I think only belongs in the hands of designers who are trying to craft an adventure, not sell a commercial.

 

[Phasmal]

But now question is; do you want people to not care about gender, or do you want them to care about gender when it comes to the games?

Ideally, nobody caring about it would be rather lovely...and simply put protag creation tools into everything, so everyone can simply design what they like. If anyone complains that's too much work and the industry should cater to them, just kick them away.

Both, I guess? I'm not saying that developers shouldn't be able to make their own characters, but those characters shouldn't all be overwhelmingly white and male. Then again I am one of those people who loves character creators so I honestly wouldn't mind making my own character most of the time.

Back on our disagreement, I think you pin-pointed where a lot of the dissonance comes from. I feel we both are speaking on general terms for the situation, but are focused on slightly different aspects. You're completely right that I'm coming from a "non-fan wanting things to change" position, but I'd argue that someone wouldn't be a fan in the first place if they were unhappy with the way things are.

Well... that's not right. There are obviously fans who want things to change. I'm a fan, always have been. I want things to change.

Don't get me wrong, I love video games.
I didn't get into this whole gender thing for shits and giggles.
Sometimes the way things are just suck.

In an effort to actually spin this back to the actual thread topic, I would say that I am a fan that is looking for change. The thing is, I'm not unhappy with the interpretation of one aspect of gaming, I'm unhappy with the majority of the AAA industry. The big business aspect has pushed gaming into the consciousness of the mainstream public, but at the same time, the quality of the titles have become entirely homogenous; Lazy writing, and weak efforts to produce games that people will buy and play puts feminism on the back burner of the check boxes every game must tick. I believe that we have raised a generation of whiners and victims that will focus on the lack of that feminism check box in each game, and raise as much hell as they can about it. The problem is the publishers are too scared to do anything about it (see Jim Sterling's episode on how Resident Evil 6 is horror embodied) in case they lose sales. The feminists and extreme whiners are right that games can be changed for the better, but focusing on whether a game meets an individual's criteria for being pro-feminist is just addressing a symptom instead of the real problem.

I'm angry about other things too, lazy writing, terrible business practices, awful games all fighting over the CoD audience. I'm not JUST irritated about the lack of female characters and how females get treated in games/playing games.

The reason I make so much noise about that, however, is because it directly affects me.
Now, I've always been angrier about the nerd community than the industry, because that affects me more- but I'm irritated at being treated like a unicorn. I just want the AAA industry to realize that they have a female market that is important.

And I do think in some parts it's getting better. Honestly, I don't spend most of my time being angry about this stuff, that'd just require levels of energy I just don't have.

And also trying to steer back to the OT- I view this as important because I'm personally affected, and people who aren't view it as victim whining because they don't think it's important. In my opinion.

Apologies if this post is a mess, I got quoted by like 5 people this morning, not used to doing big posts.