Are Women Tournaments Sexist?

[Zyst]

So today I saw over at DotA 2 Starladder tournament there seems to be a Women's Division, am I the only one who sees absolutely no point in this? Video Games are not real sports where Men hold an advantage because of body composition, video games in general should not be split in divisions I think.

Is this a sexist thing? I do notice that at least in DotA there aren't really any women in the pro teams, this is however because the amount of players that go pro are arguably less than 0.1% of the population, and DotA/DotA 2 player distribution seems to be something like 95%/5% Male/Women being generous, this makes it just incredibly less likely that girls will go pro. However the sad thing is the level of the tournament, I was watching the VoDs and the level is just abysmal, don't get me wrong they had a couple of really good players, but in a game that's fought 5v5 having 2 average semi-pro level and 8 players who are at a bad level seems... dumb? I get it that we're trying to welcome them, however giving them another platform does seem sexist. Those 2 if they got better could easily go into a good pro team.

Anyway, for discussion value discuss similar cases you've seen, your views on the lack of pro women gamers and if you are pro or against women divisions (outside of venues that are women gamer gatherings) Do note that there isn't a single rule against having a woman in the team, however, the women only platforms are of course that.

VoD source: http://www.joindota.com/en/vods

 

[Bad Jim]

Well I dunno. I find it hard to imagine esports becoming a serious thing if there aren't even any decent female players. Some women tournaments may lack good players, but what else can be done?

 

[gazumped]

I suppose there is the argument that women pro gamers are few and far between because it's seen as a boy's club so there being a woman's team is a way of granting a sort of mental permission to women to join in.

You see this with a lot of non-physical-sports related male dominated fields, like groups for women in science and technology or maths.

It does bother me that it's seen as necessary, because sometimes it feels like the women's groups are seen as the groups of people-who-aren't-good-enough-to-be-playing-with-the-REAL-scientists/mathematicians/gamers, personally I'm always reluctant to go to women-only groups for this reason, but I guess for a lot of women it can be very encouraging to get into something that they otherwise get the impression they're not welcome in.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Research found that men tend to use one side of their brain (particularly the left side for verbal reasoning) while women tend to use both cerebral areas for visual, verbal and emotional responses. These differences in brain use cause a difference in behavior between men and women. Women tend to be better at sensing emotional messages in conversations, gestures, and facial expressions, and are thus more sensitive. Women start to speak and read at an earlier age than men and are generally better in verbal skills, such as learning a different language. They tend to have a better grasp on grammar and spelling, and girls have better handwriting than boys do. Women have better sight at night and have a more acute sense of smell, taste and hearing.

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective. Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

These differences are not rules. It is easy to find women who excel in math and men who have excellent language skills (and it is even easier to find men with no sense of direction). Chances are the above statements are not going to work for your everyday situation, but these have been shown to be true in scientific studies, based on large, diverse populations. When looking at large populations, these differences between men and women become evident, and proper statistical analysis takes care of the exceptions.

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.

 

[Zyst]

Research found that men tend to use one side of their brain (particularly the left side for verbal reasoning) while women tend to use both cerebral areas for visual, verbal and emotional responses. These differences in brain use cause a difference in behavior between men and women. Women tend to be better at sensing emotional messages in conversations, gestures, and facial expressions, and are thus more sensitive. Women start to speak and read at an earlier age than men and are generally better in verbal skills, such as learning a different language. They tend to have a better grasp on grammar and spelling, and girls have better handwriting than boys do. Women have better sight at night and have a more acute sense of smell, taste and hearing.

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective. Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

These differences are not rules. It is easy to find women who excel in math and men who have excellent language skills (and it is even easier to find men with no sense of direction). Chances are the above statements are not going to work for your everyday situation, but these have been shown to be true in scientific studies, based on large, diverse populations. When looking at large populations, these differences between men and women become evident, and proper statistical analysis takes care of the exceptions.

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.

Do you even know how DotA is played or do you just enjoy quoting stuff?

EDIT: Okay that was pretty condescending sorry, let me elaborate. DotA is a team game, coordination between the 5 people (not coordinating your arm and brain, coordinating 5 people, that's very very different) having a really good reaction time to be effective at high level plays (specially with heroes who require positioning or have skills that affect the tide of the battle. Example Mekansm, Chen's Hand of God, Tidehunter Ravage, Rubick Spell steal and so on) and being able to understand and predict what is going on when everything's going to hell in a highly chaotic team battle, do note that when I play invoker I by myself usually cast 10 considerably flashy spells in a 11 second window, often using items as well in between skills all while changing orbs between spell compositions and switching back to orbs for attacking (wex or exort) so it also requires some skill but that's mostly practice.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Do you even know how DotA is played or do you just enjoy quoting stuff?

Spatial coordination, sense of direction, math, perspective, and hand-eye coordination are all pretty important for playing any MOBA, but especially one like DOTA 2.

This is why I stick to strategy games with tight stories, like everything that Nippon Ichi makes.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Research found that men tend to use one side of their brain (particularly the left side for verbal reasoning) while women tend to use both cerebral areas for visual, verbal and emotional responses. These differences in brain use cause a difference in behavior between men and women. Women tend to be better at sensing emotional messages in conversations, gestures, and facial expressions, and are thus more sensitive. Women start to speak and read at an earlier age than men and are generally better in verbal skills, such as learning a different language. They tend to have a better grasp on grammar and spelling, and girls have better handwriting than boys do. Women have better sight at night and have a more acute sense of smell, taste and hearing.

Men are better in spatial coordination and have a better sense of direction (usually!). They excel in math and are great at interpreting three-dimensional objects. They have a better hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement. They have poor peripheral vision but better sight in bright light and a better sense of perspective. Since they use one side of their brain more than the other, they tend to use the left side for verbal reasoning and the right for visual and emotional activities (if they are right handed).

These differences are not rules. It is easy to find women who excel in math and men who have excellent language skills (and it is even easier to find men with no sense of direction). Chances are the above statements are not going to work for your everyday situation, but these have been shown to be true in scientific studies, based on large, diverse populations. When looking at large populations, these differences between men and women become evident, and proper statistical analysis takes care of the exceptions.

Source: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/jakabovics/mf2.html

Emphasis mine.

Yet you forgot to bold the first sentences in the next paragraph: "These differences are not rules. It is easy to find women who excel in math and men who have excellent language skills (and it is even easier to find men with no sense of direction). Chances are the above statements are not going to work for your everyday situation". Which means that in a highly individual driven exercise like "pro-gaming", the supposed gender differences doesn't really matter because we are not looking to have everyone participate in pro-gaming events but rather to find the very best players and have them play against each other.

That aside, scientists are also having trouble reaching consensus on why we see these differences between the sexes. Is it some kind of innate, biological mechanism or is it a case of socialization at its' finest (or both)? It is no big secret that girls are traditionally ushered towards social forms of play like dolls, "playing family" and similar activities that stresses social and verbal skills. Meanwhile boys are generally encouraged to engage in forms of play that are physical such as soccer, hockey and are encouraged to be more curious about their surrounding and exploring.

I get where you are coming from, but science isn't the answer here. As several people have already posted this is likely due to the social problem of the gaming community at large being quite hostile to women and this is an attempt to make more women interested in becoming "pro-gamers".

 

[Zyst]

Do you even know how DotA is played or do you just enjoy quoting stuff?

Spatial coordination, sense of direction, math, perspective, and hand-eye coordination are all pretty important for playing any MOBA, but especially one like DOTA 2.

This is why I stick to strategy games with tight stories, like everything that Nippon Ichi makes.

I changed the response quite a bit to elaborate. Spatial coordination is important, sense of direction, math not so much (you just have to be able to do some basic stuff like 'okay so blink dagger uses 75 mana, black hole 450 so I still have enough for my combo, or I don't have enough for my combo but I got 10 stick charges which will bring me back up to it', hand eye coordination are important but after enough practice with certain heroes it becomes second nature. With my most played heroes (Invoker/Naga Siren/rubick) I got over a 100 games played with each, and at that point you don't really coordinate, you just make it happen. Perspective is probably the most important you mentioned, keeping an eye on the minimap is vital.

 

[Genocidicles]

I think it's just a holdover from real sports, probably coupled with an intent to get more women playing.

 

[Eddie the head]

I think I read somewhere that men have better spatial reasoning overall, so I guess I can see why they would keep it different. Considering games are mostly spatial.

 

[DoPo]

math not so much (you just have to be able to do some basic stuff like 'okay so blink dagger uses 75 mana, black hole 450 so I still have enough for my combo, or I don't have enough for my combo but I got 10 stick charges which will bring me back up to it'

Erm, have we both played the same DotA? At which point HP progression is outdone by adding armour, would +5% crit or + 40 damage yield better results? Would you go for "spikey" damage curve or a consistent one, albeit with a lower maximum, how would two sources of dodge/evade mesh together. Yes, calculating your mana is simple but I don't think it's the only Maths to be done.

 

[WoW Killer]

The cognitive differences are just loose trends among large samples though. You get women good at spacial awareness and men good at reading emotions. There's nothing saying the people best at a cognitive activity have to come from a given gender. And the people taking part in a competition are not a random sample; if spacial awareness is a desired trait for the competition at hand then you'll likely find the women taking part are those with good spacial awareness.

I studied mathematics at University; I can say without doubt that the men on my course were no better than the women. But only the able of either gender were on that course. Perhaps there is a sense that men perform better at mathematics on average, but it doesn't mean that the best mathematicians are always men.

I don't know the first thing about DotA (or any e-sports actually), but is this just about money? If it's perceived that people want to watch women competing seperately then that's usually a fair enough reason to do it. If there's a market for a seperate division then it makes sense. Like I said, I don't know anything about e-sports. Is there profit made from these events, like people paying to spectate or something?

 

[veloper]

I don't begrudge anyone their little pleasure of a women-only tournament.

Any type of segregation goes, even down to religion and skin color, as long as it's only unimportant stuff like sports and tournaments like this one.

Let them have their own fun if X want to be seperate from the rest.

 

[IvoryOasis]

Meh, it isn't really about the tournament... they are probably just trying to build more female communities...and bring more women into gaming.

Also, a womens only tournament is a clever advertising strategy to get a lot of "girl gamer" pictures to market to men later

 

[roushutsu]

Ideally, there shouldn't have to be different divisions based solely on gender, but given how often women are treated differently when they game, I honestly can't blame them for wanting their own division.

I've participated in a couple of general fighting game tournaments at anime conventions (along with a bunch of other women) and they're a lot of fun. Everyone gets along and has a great time, but those tournaments are FAR from the "pro" level. Why we don't have that in the "pro" level is beyond me.

 

[krazykidd]

I don't begrudge anyone their little pleasure of a women-only tournament.

Any type of segregation goes, even down to religion and skin color, as long as it's only unimportant stuff like sports and tournaments like this one.

Let them have their own fun if X want to be seperate from the rest.

Okay . Let's assume what you say is true . Let's start holding men only turnaments . Suddendly people will be crying sexism .

If the next fightin game tournament or whatever. Decide . Hey this is going to be an all male tornament . Shit will go down . And the worst part is . Most likely , nothing would have changed from the tournament due to the low/non-existant participation of women .

OT: this is just silly . This is basically saying , "we cannot beat guys , so will make our own tournament! With hookers ! And blackjack!". NO , what you should do is play against the guys and come out in first place . THAT's how you get takken. Seriously.

 

[spartan231490]

So today I saw over at DotA 2 Starladder tournament there seems to be a Women's Division, am I the only one who sees absolutely no point in this? Video Games are not real sports where Men hold an advantage because of body composition, video games in general should not be split in divisions I think.

Is this a sexist thing? I do notice that at least in DotA there aren't really any women in the pro teams, this is however because the amount of players that go pro are arguably less than 0.1% of the population, and DotA/DotA 2 player distribution seems to be something like 95%/5% Male/Women being generous, this makes it just incredibly less likely that girls will go pro. However the sad thing is the level of the tournament, I was watching the VoDs and the level is just abysmal, don't get me wrong they had a couple of really good players, but in a game that's fought 5v5 having 2 average semi-pro level and 8 players who are at a bad level seems... dumb? I get it that we're trying to welcome them, however giving them another platform does seem sexist. Those 2 if they got better could easily go into a good pro team.

Anyway, for discussion value discuss similar cases you've seen, your views on the lack of pro women gamers and if you are pro or against women divisions (outside of venues that are women gamer gatherings) Do note that there isn't a single rule against having a woman in the team, however, the women only platforms are of course that.

VoD source: http://www.joindota.com/en/vods

Men still hold an advantage in video games. Males react to visible stimuli, like the stuff going on in video games, significantly faster than females do.

 

[gideonkain]

This is an interesting topic.

I remember reading an article a few weeks ago about a South Korean woman who was a Starcraft champion in the women's league, I thought it was odd that they segregated players by gender.

They went on to say that when she entered the "Men's League" her performance level wasn't as dominating.

I'm also reminded of the time Stevie Case defeated John Romero in Quake deathmatch.

Between 1999 and 2003, Romero was involved with Stevie Case, a prominent female gaming industry figure who beat him in a Quake deathmatch.
~ http://quake.wikia.com/wiki/John_Romero

If a woman can beat a man at a game that he helped CREATE than I think it's obvious that a woman can compete against a man on equal footing in this venue.

Men still hold an advantage in video games. Males react to visible stimuli, like the stuff going on in video games, significantly faster than females do.

I'm not sure that's biologically correct, I remember hearing something about why the pilot in Aliens is a woman, because of their increased adrenal response - cite source anyone?

 

[krazykidd]

Ideally, there shouldn't have to be different divisions based solely on gender, but given how often women are treated differently when they game, I honestly can't blame them for wanting their own division.

I've participated in a couple of general fighting game tournaments at anime conventions (along with a bunch of other women) and they're a lot of fun. Everyone gets along and has a great time, but those tournaments are FAR from the "pro" level. Why we don't have that in the "pro" level is beyond me.

Because money is on the line . That and to be at pro level . Time and dedication is needed . Especially for fighting games . Hell some of the most known pro players are people that sacrified a lot to be on the top. So what happens is , they form groups . The people in their group are basically friends ( for the most part ) and these guys help and support each other while eveyone else is just a steppping block . And most offtend than not , the only way to gain their respect is to be on their level or higher . Then you have the few guys that are amazing at a game , and know it, but is still a bro , like combofiendfrom UMVC3 . Thats why casual games then to be more friendly , because nothing is at stake .

Also , i do believe trash talk is a valid tactic . Getting under a players skin , to make them lose their cool , is a valid tactic . Hell , even if it doesn't phase me personally , i can just respect a person who can talk and play and win . It takes so much concentration . Especially when in fighting games one mistake can mean defeat .

Then remember these are real people , and people don't always get along regardless . But general rule of thumb is , respect is given when respect is earned .

 

[cerebus23]

I think in poker men and women play the same tourneys, but have you seen how male gamers tend to treat people in general? nm women.

I think if xbl and etc people grew up and acted like people then we would see more co ed gaming in a official capacity.

As it stands now i got to think some promoters and backers just might be scared to death of what teenage boys (or men that act like them) would do if they were playing girls. Getting sued over harassment is no joke especially if they are at an official gathering then the people putting on the thing can get sued also.

Should girls be able to play quake on the pro level or dota or anything? sure. are we at a point where we can honestly do that? i think no.

and its not the fault of the women for not being able to hang or compete. i think video/card games are the perfect area for women to stand side by side with guys, and any limitations for men or women in that area can be overcome through hard work and practice.

but gamers in general have a hell of a lot of growing up to do.