Are you turned on by this ice cream commercial?

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

To me it sounds more like a self-inflicted, elaborate status ritual that's gone awry ever since capitalism got its hands on it. It's kinda like how valentine's day became a way for flower shops to make money, on a massive scale. It seems mainly unnecessary and excessive. Same thing with clothing and fashion and so on.


I care more about what's in people's head not what's on it or smeared around it.

You know what happens when I come in looking rough?

I'm a bigger guy than most people where I work, so no one says a thing.

You know what happens when a woman comes in with no or bad make up?

"Are you ok?" "Is something the matter?" "You look tired" "Are you feeling sick?" "What's Wrong?" "Do you need to talk?"

That isn't self inflicted.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

To me it sounds more like a self-inflicted, elaborate status ritual that's gone awry ever since capitalism got its hands on it. It's kinda like how valentine's day became a way for flower shops to make money, on a massive scale. It seems mainly unnecessary and excessive. Same thing with clothing and fashion and so on.


I care more about what's in people's head not what's on it or smeared around it.

You know what happens when I come in looking rough?

I'm a bigger guy than most people where I work, so no one says a thing.

You know what happens when a woman comes in with no or bad make up?

"Are you ok?" "Is something the matter?" "You look tired" "Are you feeling sick?" "What's Wrong?" "Do you need to talk?"

That isn't self inflicted.

That there now is a culture that's grown out of this status ritual to a point where it's seen as normal (hence people get to sell products to a consistent customer base, which is safe for investors) isn't proof that this is the natural order of things but rather just one more facet of the thing I was talking about.

This is an extremely arbitrary thing that became the norm less than 100 years ago. Like for example, recently there was a japanese twitter campaign about allowing female office workers to come to work even without high heel shoes. Humans in nature didn't evolve with high heel shoes, it's just a recent cultural development with regards to the sort of attire that counts as "professional". I think the lot of this notion is rubbish. If just putting on a costume made you be professional then a lot of male strippers would be able to perform arrests.

Also, it's mainly women who would ask these questions of other women, a man half the time wouldn't even notice and the rest he'd think "wow, she looks much better without the clown paint!". This is mainly because they're feigning concern half the time and in truth are just reveling in their superior status as a makeuped person talking to a plain Jane. You don't get questioned cause women would think you'd think they're hitting on you if they did and guys just don't care how you look cause you're just a dude. This is one of the cases where masculinity is healthy and femininity is toxic and you have to actually acknowledge it.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

To me it sounds more like a self-inflicted, elaborate status ritual that's gone awry ever since capitalism got its hands on it. It's kinda like how valentine's day became a way for flower shops to make money, on a massive scale. It seems mainly unnecessary and excessive. Same thing with clothing and fashion and so on.


I care more about what's in people's head not what's on it or smeared around it.

You know what happens when I come in looking rough?

I'm a bigger guy than most people where I work, so no one says a thing.

You know what happens when a woman comes in with no or bad make up?

"Are you ok?" "Is something the matter?" "You look tired" "Are you feeling sick?" "What's Wrong?" "Do you need to talk?"

That isn't self inflicted.

That there now is a culture that's grown out of this status ritual to a point where it's seen as normal (hence people get to sell products to a consistent customer base, which is safe for investors) isn't proof that this is the natural order of things but rather just one more facet of the thing I was talking about.

This is an extremely arbitrary thing that became the norm less than 100 years ago. Like for example, recently there was a japanese twitter campaign about allowing female office workers to come to work even without high heel shoes. Humans in nature didn't evolve with high heel shoes, it's just a recent cultural development with regards to the sort of attire that counts as "professional". I think the lot of this notion is rubbish. If just putting on a costume made you be professional then a lot of male strippers would be able to perform arrests.

Also, it's mainly women who would ask these questions of other women, a man half the time wouldn't even notice and the rest he'd think "wow, she looks much better without the clown paint!". This is mainly because they're feigning concern half the time and in truth are just reveling in their superior status as a makeuped person talking to a plain Jane. You don't get questioned cause women would think you'd think they're hitting on you if they did and guys just don't care how you look cause you're just a dude. This is one of the cases where masculinity is healthy and femininity is toxic and you have to actually acknowledge it.

Wow. Did you just erase the history for the last 100 years and come to this conclusion? You do actually know why this is considered appropriate business attire don't you? First of all, women were not originally allowed in the workforce with men and it was men who determined what was appropriate where they worked in offices alongside men. That is how women were originally forced to work in heels, proper hair and makeup and skirts. This was something that actually was originally imposed upon them by men and has not fully changed yet. Women originally were expected to be "eye candy" as attractive secretaries and not seen as peers. Even now, women's appearance in the workplace is still very much policed by these existing policies, especially in business fields.

You really have no idea about how these things came to be do you?

The gender policing of clothes was even stricter before it was widely acceptable to have women in the workplace at all. In 1960, Lois Rabinowitz, a secretary who went to a courthouse to pay her boss?s speeding ticket, was ejected for wearing slacks and a blouse. As Gail Collins relates in When Everything Changed, women were arrested for walking around in slacks on the street at night. For any women who did work, the professional dress code was "stockings, heels, gloves, and hats." But really, women weren?t supposed to have careers, and they weren't supposed to wear pants: the lines were very clear.

Today, clothing companies seem to have figured out how to design suits and work clothes for women?s bodies. But women?s choices still come fraught with tripwires they might not even know are there. Is your clothing too brightly colored? Do you leave the collar of your shirt out of the suit jacket or tucked in? Skirt or pants? You should wear heels, but not stilettos. You shouldn't look frumpy, but don?t dare show cleavage. Don't "dress like a mortician," but also avoid your "party outfit." Wear a nice suit, but not always an Armani one.

The perception of a woman in her workplace can be influenced by everything from how much makeup she wears to her hair length.

https://www.thenation.com/article/womens-office-wear-whos-making-rules/

These thing are holdovers from previous times and have not yet disappeared. I do find it odd though that you assumed this was primarily done by women when it was men who created this dress code for women in the first place. If you have ever watched the BBC documentary, " the century of self" you would see how this came about in the 50's with the promotion of what it means to be a " lady". This advertising that forced this image of women to be generally accepted by the public was the same media that promoted people to be married with diamond rings. Prior to this heavy advertising campaigns in the 50's people didn't generally do that either. It wasn't women who imposed this upon "other women" it was actually men who determined that this is what a woman should look like, women complied because it was still socially acceptable for women to never challenge a man or there would be severe repercussions.

It is actually men, not women who run the cosmetic industry FYI:

Meet George, Jean Paul, Alan, Lorenzo, Fabrizio, and John. They are the CEOs of L'Oreal, Revlon, Est?e Lauder, OPI Nail Polish, and MAC Cosmetics. Remember their faces. These men essentially run the $50 billion beauty industry.

http://www.beautyliestruth.com/blog/2015/2/why-do-men-run-the-beauty-industry

Then when you go back to how they used actresses to send the makeup industry mainstream, they were extremely harsh and violently and sexually abusive to the actresses and frequently forced them to use products that were extremely harmful. When you learn about the lives of the most famous actresses of the times, it is honestly horrific. They were groomed by predators from childhood and abused in every way possible. For example:

https://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/167269/Dark-side-of-Oz-The-exploitation-of-Judy-Garland

This was not a matter of "free will" and Women choosing these things for themselves, these things were decided before we were born and we were just born into a world where these things were what was " expected of us". For girls, it starts in grade school, you either comply or are left out and girls are taught at a young age that this is how they are accepted. Boys often don't tend to notice the "tomboy" girl who isn't as feminine as the other girls and often tomboys are accused of being lesbians and excluded further. When you grow older, you either comply or you don't do well on your "interview" and you don't get the job. This is reinforced all throughout a girls life, not just get to the point where you are self sufficient enough to make any decision for yourself.

And no, this is not a case where "Masculinity is healthy and femininity is toxic" as this really has little to do with actual femininity, it has to do with social conditioning imposed on women by men that has not yet faded. I am not even sure where you get your reasoning from tbh.

Women are judged so very harshly for their appearance due to how they are perceived by men and that is what lead to this, this did not come to be due to how women view each other. Men are who decided what was and was not attractive and women conformed to that standard through both physical and economic force.

Girls were expected to be married young or they would not be able to survive due to sexism in the workforce. The men who made this marketing of cosmetics to women focused on the fact that women would not be able to find a husband if they did not conform to this " beauty standard", thus leaving them destitute. They focused on making women feel ugly if they did not use their products. These are social norms that still exist now that have not yet faded. You want to claim this to be " femininity" but how can it actually be feminine if it was created and imposed upon them by men in the first place? Women forced this upon their daughters because they wanted their daughters to survive and this is how women have been forced to survive due to the lack of social safety net in the US. Women cannot support themselves or a family on their own easily without a husband in the US, thus the "pressure" for them to find a husband was passed down through generations to ensure their survival. It is also noticeable that women in countries with a stronger social safety net where they are less dependent on men to survive also have women wearing less makeup as a social norm as well. That is not a coincidence, as these go hand in hand. What you have to acknowledge here is that this is actually just another social norm that was imposed upon women that hasn't changed yet. Sadly, just one of many.

EDIT: and before you go on about "women's agency" understand that women have been denied " agency" in the same manner that men have used physical, propaganda and economic force to crush entire nations. Women were never given the option to not have this done to them in the first place, nor have we had access to the capability to stop it.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Also, it's mainly women who would ask these questions of other women, a man half the time wouldn't even notice and the rest he'd think "wow, she looks much better without the clown paint!". This is mainly because they're feigning concern half the time and in truth are just reveling in their superior status as a makeuped person talking to a plain Jane. You don't get questioned cause women would think you'd think they're hitting on you if they did and guys just don't care how you look cause you're just a dude. This is one of the cases where masculinity is healthy and femininity is toxic and you have to actually acknowledge it.

Lil Devils X put a lot on you to reply to, more eloquently than I. So I'm just going to address just this part.

This sentiment isn't based in the real world. It isn't even adjacent.

Do you know when I got my worth as a Man? When I finished growing at 6'2, when I just started to be able to bench 225 pounds, and when I started to walk around like a Brick house.

Because I gave off a constant air of "Fuck off, I can change your life with a punch, son."

And that's the male equivalent to Make Up

If you look like you can do labor, you're accepted. If you look like you can fuck someone up, you're revered. Before I got into personal bodybuilding, I was into Martial Arts. I had a lean frame. And even then, I'd get checked by other men. And if you're American, you know the definition of 'checked'. Am I someone to fear, respect, or dominate. I would constantly have to show I could punch faster than people would react (thank you, Jeet Kune Do) before word spread about me.

But word only matters for those who heard. When I packed on the muscle, no one even tried to check. They wouldn't look at me and went on with their business. Ironically, as my fellow martial artists here will tell you, the more bodybuilding muscle (slow, show hypertrophy), the slower you'll start to become. My martial art ability was hindered, but people didn't care. I looked dangerous. Therefore I was in the best option of men: 'Feared'.

Hell, it's still socially acceptable to body shame men to this day. "You're Chubby/Scrawny. Do something about that if you want to be a real man".

Patton Oswalt isn't bringing in millions upon billions of butts into theaters with his clever, thought provoking comedy. The Rock is with his really dumb, 'high action' set pieces that creates nothing of value in this world.

And which one of these do people more try to emulate? The smart one? Or the one who seems like he can destroy you if you shook his hand?

Masculinity is no where near healthy. We have hang ups for days. We still struggle on whether our Gay Brothers can be considered true men just because they might like Cock. Or God Forbid, they prefer receiving anal sex. God, No man would ever do that, right?!

... Even though there's an entire culture of straight men who like receiving anal sex, but the idea of receiving and being passive is so beyond most people that a majority of people believe they are closeted gay people.

Masculinity looks at me different because I like the idea of being a father. I would baby sit if it was socially acceptable. I have fun with my little cousins all the time and I honestly prefer it than talking to my adult cousins. But.. men don't act that way, right?

Masculinity looks at me different because I don't chase everything that has a vagina. That I value my body and my time and that just adding to the sexual score card means nothing to me. That I've turned down offers because I don't believe in a one night stand. Again, the gay thing is brought up because I don't debase myself enough chasing around for women all the time. Because if I was straight, I would just be a mindless animal always cruising for sex.

Masculinity likes my body, my ability to hurt people, and my voice that's apparently deep (I sound like I'm five years old). But I can't be anything but that vision of what they think I am just due to how I look. I can't be excited that my redownload of Shadowrun Hong Kong happened because I fucking love Cyberpunk mixed with Magical elements. The fact that I can out quote you in Calvin and Hobbes is uncomfortable because I'm supposed to be able only to quote sports scores... Oh, and I hate sports.

Masculinity is as rigid and inflexible as you say femininity is. And as a ex-fitness professional, I can tell you that Rigidness and inflexibility are never good indicators of Health.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Also, it's mainly women who would ask these questions of other women, a man half the time wouldn't even notice and the rest he'd think "wow, she looks much better without the clown paint!". This is mainly because they're feigning concern half the time and in truth are just reveling in their superior status as a makeuped person talking to a plain Jane. You don't get questioned cause women would think you'd think they're hitting on you if they did and guys just don't care how you look cause you're just a dude. This is one of the cases where masculinity is healthy and femininity is toxic and you have to actually acknowledge it.

Lil Devils X put a lot on you to reply to, more eloquently than I. So I'm just going to address just this part.

This sentiment isn't based in the real world. It isn't even adjacent.

Do you know when I got my worth as a Man? When I finished growing at 6'2, when I just started to be able to bench 225 pounds, and when I started to walk around like a Brick house.

Because I gave off a constant air of "Fuck off, I can change your life with a punch, son."

And that's the male equivalent to Make Up

If you look like you can do labor, you're accepted. If you look like you can fuck someone up, you're revered. Before I got into personal bodybuilding, I was into Martial Arts. I had a lean frame. And even then, I'd get checked by other men. And if you're American, you know the definition of 'checked'. Am I someone to fear, respect, or dominate. I would constantly have to show I could punch faster than people would react (thank you, Jeet Kune Do) before word spread about me.

But word only matters for those who heard. When I packed on the muscle, no one even tried to check. They wouldn't look at me and went on with their business. Ironically, as my fellow martial artists here will tell you, the more bodybuilding muscle (slow, show hypertrophy), the slower you'll start to become. My martial art ability was hindered, but people didn't care. I looked dangerous. Therefore I was in the best option of men: 'Feared'.

Hell, it's still socially acceptable to body shame men to this day. "You're Chubby/Scrawny. Do something about that if you want to be a real man".

Patton Oswalt isn't bringing in millions upon billions of butts into theaters with his clever, thought provoking comedy. The Rock is with his really dumb, 'high action' set pieces that creates nothing of value in this world.

And which one of these do people more try to emulate? The smart one? Or the one who seems like he can destroy you if you shook his hand?

Masculinity is no where near healthy. We have hang ups for days. We still struggle on whether our Gay Brothers can be considered true men just because they might like Cock. Or God Forbid, they prefer receiving anal sex. God, No man would ever do that, right?!

... Even though there's an entire culture of straight men who like receiving anal sex, but the idea of receiving and being passive is so beyond most people that a majority of people believe they are closeted gay people.

Masculinity looks at me different because I like the idea of being a father. I would baby sit if it was socially acceptable. I have fun with my little cousins all the time and I honestly prefer it than talking to my adult cousins. But.. men don't act that way, right?

Masculinity looks at me different because I don't chase everything that has a vagina. That I value my body and my time and that just adding to the sexual score card means nothing to me. That I've turned down offers because I don't believe in a one night stand. Again, the gay thing is brought up because I don't debase myself enough chasing around for women all the time. Because if I was straight, I would just be a mindless animal always cruising for sex.

Masculinity likes my body, my ability to hurt people, and my voice that's apparently deep (I sound like I'm five years old). But I can't be anything but that vision of what they think I am just due to how I look. I can't be excited that my redownload of Shadowrun Hong Kong happened because I fucking love Cyberpunk mixed with Magical elements. The fact that I can out quote you in Calvin and Hobbes is uncomfortable because I'm supposed to be able only to quote sports scores... Oh, and I hate sports.

Masculinity is as rigid and inflexible as you say femininity is. And as a ex-fitness professional, I can tell you that Rigidness and inflexibility are never good indicators of Health.

That is not even getting in to how men talk about and culturally view women. Men value women based on their appearance rather than what they are capable of doing. How many men care what the women in the sport's illustrated swimsuit issue think and do? The women in Playboy or Hustler? For the most part, men view women as "eye candy" and value them as such. In cultures where this is not as acceptable, or the social norm, you also do not have women trying to look like playboy models as the social norm either.

How women are valued based on their appearance is not actual femininity at all, it is another extension of masculinity and the women being " kept in their place" by expectations set by men. The way Trump talks about and views women and his hosting of miss universe pageants is "the social norm" for how many men viewed and treated women for ages now. Women have also enforced these standards due to the need to survive rather than it actually being a feminine trait due to lack of viable options for women to succeed. "Beauty standards" are not even universal, although American culture has spread globally, different cultures do not always view women the same. Hell in Hopi culture they want women to be plump and without any makeup at all to be considered attractive and I was always told I was too skinny.

EDIT:If we take a woman who was not dressing to conform to men's standards and wore what she liked and was comfortable with such as Sybil here:

What would men say about her? How many men would want to date her? Would men want her to be the "face to the public of their office or business"? Buy magazines just because she is on the cover? Not very likely, thus her opportunities to survive in life would be greatly limited. That is how this works in reality.

Keeping in mind this woman is not actually considered "unattractive" according to male standards, her opportunities are determined by her willingness to conform to male standards of beauty.

Spoiler: same woman conforming to male standards of beauty

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

That is not even getting in to how men talk about and culturally view women. Men value women based on their appearance rather than what they are capable of doing. How many men care what the women in the sport's illustrated swimsuit issue think and do? The women in Playboy or Hustler? For the most part, men view women as "eye candy" and value them as such. In cultures where this is not as acceptable, or the social norm, you also do not have women trying to look like playboy models as the social norm either.

How women are valued based on their appearance is not actual femininity at all, it is another extension of masculinity and the women being " kept in their place" by expectations set by men. The way Trump talks about and views women and his hosting of miss universe pageants is "the social norm" for how many men viewed and treated women for ages now. Women have also enforced these standards due to the need to survive rather than it actually being a feminine trait due to lack of viable options for women to succeed. "Beauty standards" are not even universal, although American culture has spread globally, different cultures do not always view women the same. Hell in Hopi culture they want women to be plump and without any makeup at all to be considered attractive and I was always told I was too skinny.

EDIT:If we take a woman who was not dressing to conform to men's standards and wore what she liked and was comfortable with such as Sybil here:

What would men say about her? How many men would want to date her? Would men want her to be the "face to the public of their office or business"? Buy magazines just because she is on the cover? Not very likely, thus her opportunities to survive in life would be greatly limited. That is how this works in reality.

Keeping in mind this woman is not actually considered "unattractive" according to male standards, her opportunities are determined by her willingness to conform to male standards of beauty.

Spoiler: same woman conforming to male standards of beauty

Well, beauty standards are always going to be a mire due to unfathomable ideals. I'm a semi decent looking guy. On a good day, I'll say I might even be a seven, using that scale. But due to certain people's perceptions of things as blithe as my skin color, a white male '5' can beat me any day of the week due to just pigmentation.

A female's beauty is still her most important resource in this day and age. Juxtapose that with a male's worth being above 6 feet, strong, commanding, good job, good status... we're playing a dumb game on both sides. My worth as a male has to basically go through a credit check, an obstacle course that says "You must be this tall to enter", and an ink blot test. A female's worth is a cup size and a waist size.

We work too hard to demean each other and then focus on the ways we ourselves are demeaned. I wish we could just stop. It's why for a time, I tried the online dating thing. I didn't put up a picture. I just wanted my opinion and thoughts to matter. Not one response.

I put up a picture... gah. "Mmm, I need me some of that chocolate*", "Hey sexy, whatchu doing", and other things not to be shared in mixed company.

And let's be honest. I'm guilty in wanting beauty. We all are. I just claim some kind of Hipster Superiority due to actually liking how that Sybil character looks more than Emma does. I'm a geek. I will always be a geek. I like my geek women. That's my standard of beauty.

In short, beauty is stupid and I wish I could become asexual.


*I'm Caramel, I'm not chocolate. Idris Elba is chocolate. I'm more of a Lenny Kravitz.