Armed civilian, 17, shoots 2 dead during Kenosha happening

Status
Not open for further replies.

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,178
6,433
118
And of course, because he's white, he gets 30 days before extradition to Wisconsin to stand trial so that his family can pick him out a private defense attorney rather than relying on the public defender.
He's also likely to have an extremely high quality legal team.

There are tens of millions of Americans who effectively support what this kid did, with big media support from the likes of Tucker Carlson. If there aren't already donations coming in to pay for his legal expenses, there will be soon.
 

Chimpzy

Simian Abomination
Legacy
Escapist +
Apr 3, 2020
12,751
9,140
118
Or "the pedophile"
Something I have questions about, because I've been completely unable to find any source of Joseph Rosenbaum being a registered sex offender outside of the image in that tweet from Andy Ngo

One thing that also struck me was that this says Joseph Rosenbaum was registered as a sex offender in Wisconsin in august 2017, but all reporting about him that talks about his origins indicates he's a Texas native who moved to Kenosha in the last year. Seems odd, though not impossible.
So I had the idea to look up the Wisconsin Sex Offender Registry, search his name.
Unfortunately, I've as yet been unable to access the site. Always times out. However, there is also a national site which allows a search across all states and territories.
Entering Joseph Rosenbaum or any of the aliases mentioned in that tweet produced no results. By means of test I searched articles for other names of people conviced and registered as sex offenders in Wisconsin. Entered those into the national site. Got hits for all of them. Spent a good while trying to find an alternative means of verifying Joseph Rosenbaum is indeed a sex offender. Nothing outside of rightwing sites all touting that one image.

Is it cuz the dude's dead? Anyone able to access the Wisconsin registry to check there?
 
Last edited:

Chimpzy

Simian Abomination
Legacy
Escapist +
Apr 3, 2020
12,751
9,140
118
I think your extremely overestimating a governments ability to process things, let alone a US government
That seems probably. Just bothers me that the only source is one image from a guy with connections to far-right groups, and that all other means of potentially verifying this information are either currently inaccessible or return no results.
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,914
1,781
118
Country
United Kingdom
I dunno anything about guns or bullets, but that gun website says that .223 is "safer for home defense", compared to pistols and shotguns, so says the FBI.
I don't know a huge amount of guns and bullets, but I did grow up around guns in a country where you are legally required to know about gun safety in order to own a gun. The actually important part of that website is when they point out that any gun powerful enough that you might consider using it for "home defence" can easily penetrate a door or interior wall. Guns in general have a lot of penetrating power, that is literally how they work.

So, I actually went and checked the sources on that website. It's interesting. Firstly, I don't get where the FBI comes in. There's a broken link to another gun article published by someone who apparently claimed to be a retired FBI agent, but the article doesn't seem to exist and the name doesn't produce any meaningful search results. Even if it did exist and this person is who they claim to be, that's not the FBI. All the other links are just tests by random gun owners who often openly admit they have little knowledge of ballistics and are generally using a similar setup of spaced drywall sheets to represent the interior of a house. Many of these "tests" are carried out using ammunition specifically created and marketed for its low penetration qualities or high fragmentation, which in many cases don't live up to expectation. In the tests with standard full metal jacket .223 rounds, they typically penetrate all the layers of drywall used in the test despite tumbling.

So, tumbling happens because when the bullet strikes an object, it forms a bubble of pressure that deforms the front of the bullet and thus creates uneven drag. This makes the bullet tumble. But the bullet doesn't stop tumbling once it exits whatever it was fired at, it continues to tumble through the air, encountering more air resistance and slowing down faster. That is why .223 rounds are relatively good at not penetrating multiple layers of spaced drywall, because between those layers of drywall are large gaps of air. Again though, the sheer amount of energy the bullet starts with is so much greater that it can still penetrate several walls before being stopped completely, but if you live in a big house and you don't want to injure someone three rooms away, .223 may be relatively safer because it will slow down quicker after penetrating the first wall. Again though, the flipside of this is that the trajectory of the bullet becomes erratic once it starts tumbling, and you cannot predict where it will end up.

But this doesn't equate at all to penetration of a human body, because a human body doesn't contain large gaps of air in which the tumbling bullet can slow down. To test how projectiles penetrate a human body, you'd need to do a ballistic gel test. After looking up ballistic gel tests for .223 ammo, I've learned that the amount of penetration actually varies hugely depending on the precise make and composition of the ammunition, with some being similar to pistol ammunition and others being far more penetrating, so in conclusion there is no way to tell from the calibre and model of the firearm how much danger there was of over-penetration.

But, since we're talking about the FBI, let me quote Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, an actual FBI report detailing what should be looked for in a handgun cartridge, on the subject of overpenetration of a living body.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely

You cannot safely shoot someone in a crowd without the risk of hitting other people. Even if we put aside the penetration characteristics of the bullet itself, or assume the shooter is deliberately using less penetrating ammunition, it is not possible even for a highly trained person to guarantee all shots will safely hit their target centre mass, let alone some sperm playing dress-up as a cop.
 
Last edited:

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,053
3,781
118
So, tumbling happens because when the bullet strikes an object, it forms a bubble of pressure that deforms the front of the bullet and thus creates uneven drag. This makes the bullet tumble.
Erm, not because the bullet has more mass at the rear than the front? Which you can increase by using light material (aluminium, or even sometimes wood or just an empty space) towards the front.

But this doesn't equate at all to penetration of a human body, because a human body doesn't contain large gaps of air in which the tumbling bullet can slow down. To test how projectiles penetrate a human body, you'd need to do a ballistic gel test. After looking up ballistic gel tests for .223 ammo, I've learned that the amount of penetration actually varies hugely depending on the precise make and composition of the ammunition, with some being similar to pistol ammunition and others being far more penetrating, so in conclusion there is no way to tell from the calibre and model of the firearm how much danger there was of over-penetration.

But, since we're talking about the FBI, let me quote Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, an actual FBI report detailing what should be looked for in a handgun cartridge, on the subject of overpenetration of a living body.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely
To add to that, over penetration of human is a problem because the murder victim is human, and if the bullet is still moving once it leaves them it's got energy that didn't go into the murdering, which is inefficient. Having the bullet tumble inside the victim decreases the chances of that, and increases the permanent cavity. Tumbling is often very desirable, and munitions are often made with that in mind.

And you seem to have linked to your hard drive there.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,178
6,433
118
Something I have questions about, because I've been completely unable to find any source of Joseph Rosenbaum being a registered sex offender outside of the image in that tweet from Andy Ngo
Personally, I think there's a significant chance that these stories of the shooting victims having criminal records is made up or exaggerated - not least because it was all three of them, and the crimes seemed unusually emotive or serious. If so, someone wanted to sway public opinion in favour of the accused, and was happy to lie to do so. There are always a bunch of desperate chuckleheads who latch onto these rumours and struggle to let go even when the truth emerges: that's why people spread misinformation.

My suspicions are greater when we have people like Andy Ngo, who from what I can tell (this is the first time I've encountered him) is one of many social media activists who masquerade as a "journalist", despite zero to minimal adherence to journalistic standards of fact-checking, neutrality, etc. He doesn't care if he's lied, he's just in the business of throwing red meat to his audience.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
19,053
3,781
118
Personally, I think there's a significant chance that these stories of the shooting victims having criminal records is made up or exaggerated - not least because it was all three of them, and the crimes seemed unusually emotive or serious. If so, someone wanted to sway public opinion in favour of the accused, and was happy to lie to do so. There are always a bunch of desperate chuckleheads who latch onto these rumours and struggle to let go even when the truth emerges: that's why people spread misinformation.

My suspicions are greater when we have people like Andy Ngo, who from what I can tell (this is the first time I've encountered him) is one of many social media activists who masquerade as a "journalist", despite zero to minimal adherence to journalistic standards of fact-checking, neutrality, etc. He doesn't care if he's lied, he's just in the business of throwing red meat to his audience.
Second that. I'd imagine by the time that's been disproved, though, the victims past will have been gone over in great detail, and photos of them walking next to someone who once said drugs aren't that bad or whatever will be brought up.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,856
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Personally, I think there's a significant chance that these stories of the shooting victims having criminal records is made up or exaggerated - not least because it was all three of them, and the crimes seemed unusually emotive or serious. If so, someone wanted to sway public opinion in favour of the accused, and was happy to lie to do so. There are always a bunch of desperate chuckleheads who latch onto these rumours and struggle to let go even when the truth emerges: that's why people spread misinformation.

My suspicions are greater when we have people like Andy Ngo, who from what I can tell (this is the first time I've encountered him) is one of many social media activists who masquerade as a "journalist", despite zero to minimal adherence to journalistic standards of fact-checking, neutrality, etc. He doesn't care if he's lied, he's just in the business of throwing red meat to his audience.
Arizona prison records.

 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
He's also likely to have an extremely high quality legal team.

There are tens of millions of Americans who effectively support what this kid did, with big media support from the likes of Tucker Carlson. If there aren't already donations coming in to pay for his legal expenses, there will be soon.
Eh, it's the other way around. More help for the victims.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,856
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Eh, it's the other way around. More help for the victims.
Apparently several funding sites have struck down attempts to raise funds for Rittenhouse.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
Please do not use ablelist language.
Apparently several funding sites have struck down attempts to raise funds for Rittenhouse.
Happens all the time, I read autists screeching about it in /pol/. Private business etc. I don't mind.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
Is it cuz the dude's dead? Anyone able to access the Wisconsin registry to check there?
I'm gonna Ocham's razor this shit and say Ando Ngo is a lying piece of shit.

Happens all the time, I read autists screeching about it in /pol/. Private business etc. I don't mind.
Hi. As someone on the high-functioning end of the autistic spectrum, I am politely asking you not to use autism as a slur.
 

Iron

BOI
Sep 6, 2013
1,741
259
88
Country
Occupied Palestine
B just ignore me if you can't take bantz
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
B just ignore me if you can't take bantz
It's a fucking slur. I'm asking you to stop. I will not ask again. This isn't a chan board. There are rules here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Avnger

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,856
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Further updates.




My interest is specifically with the quotes from his lawyer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.