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[Owyn_Merrilin]

You guys best not be mocking obtuse indie title #44384.

So, who is ready for another rousing forum discussion of games and art? I know I'm not, so I'm gonna go get a waffle. Let me know how it plays out.

A bunch of people shout at each other and nothing is resolved.

Luckily, we already have it. But as to why we need it, in the United States at least, it gives us protection against censorship due to being protected speech. That is a very, very important distinction. I actually do not at all agree with them that "art" is a label that is arbitrary, not when there are immense legal ramifications at stake.

A legal or constitutional label is far from the designation of Roger Ebert or anyone else of his ilk.

And if they were serious, they'd go after it on commerce grounds.

Besides, that law doesn't protect art. It protects things with "artistic value," among other things like scientific and political value. It's not about whether a medium counts as art, it's about whether a specific piece of art really is art, or if it's just porn. In other words, it doesn't protect all videogames -- how could it? The law that was used in that decision was written to ban pornographic movies. If it worked the way gamers seem to think it did, either all movies would be banned under it, or it would be illegal to ever ban one. Neither option matches the reality.

Here's the list of things that have to be checked for on a case by case basis for something to be declared "obscene" and banned:

Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law,
Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

All three requirements have to be met. I don't know of any games not made either in Japan or by 4chan that wouldn't get past the second part of the test, let alone needing to actually get to the third part and find out if it has "serious... artistic... value."

 

[Jessta]

I always figured video games were just an art that was just hyper commercialized in order to adapt to being born into a capitalistic world.
Although somewhere in me want's to say video games aren't an art but rather a compilation of all the art's (Music, literature, painting, drawing, acting, 3D modelling) that have come before bound together using computer sciences (programming) and psychology (game design) in order to form something that can only be describe as an interactive experience.

 

[Seventh Actuality]

That's mostly spot on, and how I wish gamers (and people in general) would react to most things, but there is one area where "games=art???" becomes an actual issue with, like, consequences and shit. In America and a few other countries people have tried to subject games to laws or restrictions that would never fly with other art forms. 'Arbitrary' can be kind of important when it comes to legal issues and if games were accepted as art they could be guaranteed protection under freedom of speech/expression laws.

That said, that level of acceptance is still more likely to come with time than internet shitfits, so maybe you're right either way.

 

[captainballsack]

If they aren't art, what are they?

This strip does raise a good point. While videogames can be great pieces of literature or aesthetically appealing, the craft is ultimately based on the core idea of gameplay. This is something we are very quickly forgetting, as we're so focused on improving graphics, A.I, physics, stories and not on the simple, necessary game design/theory REQUIRED to make a game last long, play well and be ultimately enjoyable.

The great graphics fade, the awesome A.I devolves into just being a toy, the brilliant twists only surprise us once, but the game design is what keeps us playing, whether we realise it or not.

This is why Nintendo has my money this generation. Bring Pikman 3 the fuck on.

 

[Pinkscare]

Video games are art. They used to say the same thing about comic books. However, this critic is no different from any other type of critic. That's just critical analysis. Deal with it.

 

[xplosive59]

Do we even need to dig up this old argument? It just seems like pandering now. Everything that was created to be a certain way is art, the quality of art is subjective and is what really this argument should be about.

 

[McMarbles]

I don't know why we keep trying to get the approval of people who don't care about games in the first place.

It's like trying to convince someone who has no interest in football that it's not just a pasttime to yell at the screen for a couple of hours.

The same reason that these days, the highest praise we can give to a game is that it's "cinematic".

This is a medium that is, on some level, deeply ashamed of its roots.

 

[JEBWrench]

The most amusing thing was the Braid's gameplay was lousy.

I digress!

The same reason that these days, the highest praise we can give to a game is that it's "cinematic".

This is a medium that is, on some level, deeply ashamed of its roots.

And the longing for a comparable game to a certain film that most people who talk about it never watched. Don't forget that.

I mean, http://thecitizenkaneofvideogames.tumblr.com/ exists.

 

[themilo504]

I dislike using literature as a means of telling a story and prefer video games over movies , so this comic speaks to me.

 

[Dango]

I was kind of expecting a really artsy Fist of the North Star parody.

Fortunately what I got was also good.

 

[Lightknight]

I always figured video games were just an art that was just hyper commercialized in order to adapt to being born into a capitalistic world.
Although somewhere in me want's to say video games aren't an art but rather a compilation of all the art's (Music, literature, painting, drawing, acting, 3D modelling) that have come before bound together using computer sciences (programming) and psychology (game design) in order to form something that can only be describe as an interactive experience.

It's no less commercialized than movies are anymore. You have to commercialize projects that require many hands to make as opposed to just one (usually). Video Games, much like movies, are a compilation of multiple works of art. For example, a movie may have a sculpture in it that was made specifically for that movie. Both the design of the sculture itself and the way it is filmed are considered art.

In the same way, a video game may have a statue in it that was designed specifically for the game. It's just a different medium. If we throw in animated films we get even closer to it. I'd say animated films are closer to traditional art than live action.

 

[Erttheking]

I don't know why we keep trying to get the approval of people who don't care about games in the first place.

It's like trying to convince someone who has no interest in football that it's not just a pasttime to yell at the screen for a couple of hours.

A. We're tired of being blamed every time a shooting happens. Christ I'm surprised that video games didn't get blamed for the Boston bombing.

B. It's less we want people to appreciate video games as art, and more we want them to get off of our ass and stop censoring them, or preaching that they should be banned.

Then again I suppose at the end of the day it's a little pointless. I mean the US Supreme Court ruled that video games are legally art.

 

[punipunipyo]

Digital-Games are the next level form of art, we knew this years ago, the movie/book critics are just holding on to their dying thrones, by denying our massive crowd; even at this day and age, still trying to put us down as "minority" even when we have their moms/grandmas in our mass, playing "Farmvill", and other casual games...

We ARE the next gen entertainment, media, leisure supreme, they won't denied us; they can't denied us. our industry is making projects with scopes larger than movie industries, we seen great actors being castes to voice/mo-cap in OUR games, the wave is changing, our ripples from the 90's is coming back like a tsunami, it is now consider "trendy" and soon, it will be THE STANDARD!

There is an image in my head, of a gate, with the critics on one side pushing, and us on the other side holding them back. However, as the camera zoom out, we see further back of the two masses... our masses is getting reinforced, and the mass on the critics' side is actually scattering in fear the more we see towards the back. We are NOT defending. We are invading, and with our growing numbers, we are taking down the gate, and we are the invaders, there is no stopping us. As we see the edges of the whole image, on their side, standing, their leaders with the people running pass them, some have fallen to their knees and their eyes wide open staring at the unavoidable coming of the new era, that will crush them, tread over them and use their dying(yes, dying; not dead) bodies as our foundation; on the other side, our leaders, and the rest of our growing masses come charging in, the gramps/toddlers/stay-home-moms/dads...etc they come charging in on war horses, looks on their faces like child seeing ice-cream cone, about to receive.

"I've seen that movie/book stuff, highly scripted, leaner, narrow scoped, short timed, and almost always, low(or no) re-play value..."

 

[Mister Chippy]

Someone once told me that video games couldn't be art because Call of Duty was so dumb. I then proceed to bring up the wikipedia articles for Transformers:WOTF, 50 Shades of Gray, and Ecce Homo in separate windows on my computer. I just turned the screen towards them after that. They shut up pretty fast.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Wooo! Another 'Games are art too!' message that every gamer worth his/her salt already knows. Furthermore, I may not be looking in the right places but I haven't seen an actual critic put down gaming, saying it isn't a true work of art. Ever. I'm sure it's for the same reason that book critics don't criticize films and art critics don't criticize books.

 

[Baresark]

Videogames are a massive and expensive pastime. That is the very reason that no one should care so much about what critics of movies think about videogames. I attended school for Fine Arts, and while most game couldn't possibly be considered art in the sense that there is some deep emotional impact or even some sort of meaningful message about the times we live; there certainly are games that fall into that description. I don't care if an art critic likes videogames. Just like most artists could not care less if a gamer finds deep meaning in his work. Hell, most artists don't care if anyone finds meaning in their work at all, as they don't do it for other people, they do it for themselves. Games should be the same. They should be made to fill the niche that people use them for. Some will turn out to be art, most will not. I feel that gamers go out of their way for the thing they enjoy doing to be legitimized. I say stop doing that because it's already legitimate in a lot of ways. But it will never be legitimate to the Ebert's of the world because they don't actively participate in their use or enjoyment.

 

[Pyrian]

Still, if you think that's a massive improvement, you should see some of the webcomics that I've seen.

"Questionable Content" springs to mind:

From: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=4
to: http://www.questionablecontent.net/

 

[Darth_Payn]

Holy shit, Cory's art has come a long way since those days

He's gotten really good, the improvement is astounding.

Well, that was one of his first strips. It's fairly common to see a wast difference between early strips and the newest one in a comic that's been consistently maintained for years.

Still, if you think that's a massive improvement, you should see some of the webcomics that I've seen.

It's still good, though. He's clearly become better at it.

I'm aware that it's one of the earlier comics, I've been reading them since day 1 after all

This sort of thing happens to all webcomics I read. I've seen it with PvP Online and Penny Arcade. Go back to their archives and you will start asking yourself if you're reading the same strip at all.

 

[Ferisar]

I don't think it's a question of whether or not it's art at this point, but rather if its artistic merit and narrative is worthwhile. Entertainment and actual insight are two different things.

What I'm trying to get at, while video games are art, not that many are worth remembering, and that bugs me.

WHAT AHM SAYING IS

Like a pretty poster, it's not something that I feel I'm going to refer back to three or four decades down the line. I doubt it's ever going to be examined in a school course or have lasting societal impact. There just hasn't been anything of that magnitude (at least seemingly).

And that's FINE. I like games. But it's, well, games. It's not an "interactive experience" it's "video game".

you know, it's in the title.

My guess is the best of this medium is still ahead.

 

[Elyxard]

I remember reading about people sending copies of Shadow of the Colossus to Roger Ebert and thinking to myself, "How the hell is someone who hasn't played videogames since the arcade days going to pick up one of the most difficult to control videogames of our time?". I certainly agree that it's a work of art, but that's just silly, desperate, and ineffective way to convince Mr. Ebert of our medium's strengths.