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Paragon Fury

The Loud Shadow
Jan 23, 2009
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As for that last line? I've said it once, I'll say it again and a dozen more times:

Bayonetta is one of the best female video characters we've had. Ever. Better than Vaynce. Better than any incarnation of Lara Croft. Hell, I'd say she is better than most characters you could name from movies and books.
 

Gorrath

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Feb 22, 2013
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canadamus_prime said:
Gorrath said:
canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why we should even give a shit whether or not we get the elusive and utterly arbitrary "art" label.
Luckily, we already have it. But as to why we need it, in the United States at least, it gives us protection against censorship due to being protected speech. That is a very, very important distinction. I actually do not at all agree with them that "art" is a label that is arbitrary, not when there are immense legal ramifications at stake.
Which raises a whole other issue. Why does something need to be considered art in order to be protected from censorship due to being protected speech? Shouldn't any form of self-expression qualify whether it be "art" or not?
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection. I actually think that any speech, so long as it does not create direct and unwarranted harm (yelling 'fire' in a theater, threatening to kill someone, libel/slander ect.) should be free speech. But, things being what they are it is good that games are recognized as art if for nothing else than to be granted that protection. Not all speech that is free is considered artistic expression of course, but all artistic expression is considered free speech, no matter who it might offend. Whether or not the art label means anything outside of that, I don't much care actually. I am just one who would hates censorship with a passion and am very glad that the status of games has been settled. As for expanding free speech to include things it does not right now, I am all for that, but that's a different fight.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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Come on fellas. Tetris is not art. It doesn't say anything about the nature of the world, about what is. Or does it? When you think about it, it probably does and on a deeper level than Forrest Gump saying "Life is like a box of chocolates". You've got someone sitting at their desk trying to fit different shaped blocks into lines, for no particular reason or reward at all except that they enjoy it. So yeah. I don't know where I'm going here but I'll stop.

I think what is more likely to happen rather than games being upgraded to art, is the university arts being downgraded, which has sort of been happening the last 50 years with music, writing and a few other areas. No one is going to accept anymore an Oxford professor's opinion that eastern music isn't skilled, which was quite common view in the first half of the 20th century because it was being judged by fixed western standards.

Of course I may be wrong because I see courses like "game design" entering the curriculum, but that was bound to happen anyway. A dude with a Bachelor of Jazz isn't necessarily better at playing Jazz than someone who's been busking his whole life.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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I just realized that one of the tags is "ARE VIDEO GAMES ART ARE THEY ARE THEY REALLY CRITICAL MISS"

Not sure if funny or just baffling.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Paragon Fury said:
As for that last line? I've said it once, I'll say it again and a dozen more times:

Bayonetta is one of the best female video characters we've had. Ever. Better than Vaynce. Better than any incarnation of Lara Croft. Hell, I'd say she is better than most characters you could name from movies and books.
Bleg. If she's the best we can come up with, maybe it's time we admit video games aren't art.
 

Requia

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Gorrath said:
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection.
Yes it is. Hell, there are critical pieces of free speech case law (Hustler Magazine vs Falwell) that are based on porn.
 

lacktheknack

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Elate said:
All those games mentioned, are shit. No way about it, they're boring and dull.

You want a good compelling game, with a strong, well told narrative, and engaging GAMEplay, and a good matching aesthetic? Bastion. I say it every time, and it's 3000x more fun than Dear Esther will ever be, games like that, to me are what some would consider "modern art". You know the kind, a black square painted on a white canvas which people stare at thoughtfully rubbing their chins as they come up with contrived reasoning behind it, and the social message it is trying to convey from the artist, when really, it's a black square on a white canvas. I feel that is what Dear Esther is trying to be, in short, pseudo-high brow bullshit.
Says you.

As a modern art fan, it's not really too hard to spot what is "troll-art" and what actually has artistic merit. Black square on white canvas with no other context? Pure laziness, and it annoys me to see it in my art gallery. Giant cage containing staircase, strung with needles and thread? That's interesting to see, and actually appears to be trying to say something (probably about the artist's barriers in their attempts to advance as a person, but that's not really relevant to this thread).

Also, Bastion was a bit meh. I had more fun with The Path.

Yes.

I had more fun with The Path than Bastion.

Explain that.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Blood Brain Barrier said:
I think what is more likely to happen rather than games being upgraded to art, is the university arts being downgraded, which has sort of been happening the last 50 years with music, writing and a few other areas. No one is going to accept anymore an Oxford professor's opinion that eastern music isn't skilled, which was quite common view in the first half of the 20th century because it was being judged by fixed western standards.
They've been "downgrading" practically constantly. Remember, there was a time when Gothic architecture was derided. Hell, even the term arose out of negativity.
 

Requia

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Elate said:
All those games mentioned, are shit. No way about it, they're boring and dull.

You want a good compelling game, with a strong, well told narrative, and engaging GAMEplay, and a good matching aesthetic? Bastion. I say it every time, and it's 3000x more fun than Dear Esther will ever be, games like that, to me are what some would consider "modern art". You know the kind, a black square painted on a white canvas which people stare at thoughtfully rubbing their chins as they come up with contrived reasoning behind it, and the social message it is trying to convey from the artist, when really, it's a black square on a white canvas. I feel that is what Dear Esther is trying to be, in short, pseudo-high brow bullshit.
I do not get the Bastion obsession. Unlike the high brow games, I've actually played it, and its well done but nothing about it is actually exceptional from a gameplay standpoint except that it adopts modern game conventions to an old genre. From an art standpoint, its got a really shitty plot, no character development in 3 of the 4 named characters, great 2D visuals, bad narration, and an interesting thing where it gives story justification for New Game+.
 

mfeff

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Nov 8, 2010
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The comic strip points at the fundamental issue with the discussion of the "high art" or "work of art" as composition status with so called video games.

Like a lot of polemic rubbish in the academic and pseudo academic circles the discourse of this comic starts with a statement rather than an argument and then engages in an exercise of re-framing or re-contextualization. This is accomplished by introducing some form of relativism such as, the academic has no experience with "video games" and as such he or she's opinion is invalid. If this is not an outright straw man it is an unjustified assumption.



Just as "Critical Miss" calls into question the educational/experiential status of the academic on the subject of "video games" the same is said by the academic (especially the art history professional) as to the knowledge possessed by the "video game" consumer as it relates to literary theory, art history, art as a practiced and studied skill, serious study of art movements, and last but not least, the artist or lay person's ability to discuss those movements. Additionally due to the tremendous amount of technology that is leveraged in these software installations a question can easily be begged as to "what extent" the artist or lay consumer is capable of discussing or even understanding the very formal systems in which their work is being created on.

Art, begs an Artist, so who are these artist of these works? Are you able to name them, are you able to name the people responsible for the particular bits you found particularly interesting in a particular title?

The discussion then falls into an appeal to "reason" or "reasonable" definition of "art". This is fine, assuming that one has bothered to provide a definition without appealing to "common sense". This simple mechanism works in that by declining to accept the "appeal" to an undefined definition or appeal to an unqualified authority, "Critical Miss" takes the high road of the rational and sensible and as such dismisses the discourse out of hand in much the same fashion as the original unjustified assumption or straw man did.

The trouble is the academic perceives this lazy appeal for what it is a lazy appeal paving the red carpet road into the conformation bias.

The academic, heavily schooled in the polemic, will consistently undermine all attempts by the pseudo academic to establish some form of ontological primacy leveraging any particular game as being art. This continues ad absurdum until the discussion tangents into the "value" of art. Now that the boundaries of the term have been expanded to the absurd and everything has becomes art the term becomes cognitively meaningless as it relates to the statement "video games = art".

Video Game "Art" is now linguistically categorized as Artifice, essentially products produced by the hard working indigenous people of "wherever", crafted products specifically designed to market at the mass audience consumer level.

Right back to the syllogistic merry go round, one finds oneself looking at the art of video games rather than any specific product or work as "a work of art compositionally".

Once the term has become meaningless it becomes impossible to establish an epidemiological structure to evaluate a work critically. If the work cannot be evaluated by any sort of studied measure there will emerge no legitimate critic of the works.

To answer Warren Spector on the subject, no video game has yet to have been devised that could withstand the rigor of a critical analysis.

As Ebert conceded, they are "art" in the sense that they are kitsch and camp, mired in the dada movement and suffering from all the same syllogistic problems of that movement. Postmodern art has yet to get out of it... Eventually Ebert noted that most "films" where not (high/composition works) of art as well... go figure.

If the audience has no experience outside of a comic book and video game popular culture then video games are "art" (in that limited context) but the ability by those consumers to articulate a convincing argument within the greater context of human arts is seriously lacking.

My provisional hypothesis is that the vast majority of consumer and fan of "video games" simply do not command a useful knowledge beyond that limited perception and experience that they have grown up on for the last 100 years in dada.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_games_as_an_art_form

In a 2006 interview with US Official PlayStation 2 Magazine, well-known game designer, Hideo Kojima announced that he agreed with Ebert's assessment that video games are not art. Kojima acknowledged that games may contain artwork, but he stressed the intrinsically popular nature of video games in contrast to the niche interests served by art. Since the highest ideal of all video games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction whereas art is targeted to at least one person, Kojima argued that video game creation is more of a service than an artistic endeavor.

If Kojima (and others) put this to bed back in 2006 (and this discussion is old), one has a lot of work to do if one plan to "actually" make an argument to the contrary.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Requia said:
Gorrath said:
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection.
Yes it is. Hell, there are critical pieces of free speech case law (Hustler Magazine vs Falwell) that are based on porn.
Hustler v Falwell was about a parody Falwell didn't like in Hustler magazine, not about pornography. I just looked it up to double-check.
 

Requia

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mfeff said:
*snip, cause this is incredibly long winded*
It's funny that you post the strawman pic, because you open by blatantly misrepresenting the comic, the comic is pointing out that the critics are applying standards that were made for different medium than games ("They lack the visual cohesion of films or the insight of literature"), and that held up to the standard of games, other mediums would also come out terrible.
 

Requia

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Requia said:
Gorrath said:
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection.
Yes it is. Hell, there are critical pieces of free speech case law (Hustler Magazine vs Falwell) that are based on porn.
Hustler v Falwell was about a parody Falwell didn't like in Hustler magazine, not about pornography. I just looked it up to double-check.
Oh, damn, I thought it was one of those parody porn pieces.
 

Ferisar

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Requia said:
mfeff said:
*snip, cause this is incredibly long winded*
It's funny that you post the strawman pic, because you open by blatantly misrepresenting the comic, the comic is pointing out that the critics are applying standards that were made for different medium than games ("They lack the visual cohesion of films or the insight of literature"), and that held up to the standard of games, other mediums would also come out terrible.
Except video games still apply narrative structure, visual cohesion, and social insight into that narrative. The only new thing among video games is interaction, which we most generally just call "gameplay". Oftentimes the other three elements take up such a huge chunk of the interactivity that it's hard to judge based on the actual playing of any game. I'd say it's entirely fair to judge based on some of the same standards for other mediums, because games constantly borrow from them to have a more stable foundation to work from.

What the comic applies to is, maybe, the enjoyment of the medium, more so then anything else. Video games are not in the same league as, well, anything (yet). I'm not going to say more because I don't have a fully formed opinion on the matter, but it's going somewhere.

Again, that doesn't bring quality into question, it's just a question of artistic integrity. Two different things.

The debate can go a long ways, but what mfeff posted is actually fairly valid. (and long-winded)

Anyway, this whole debate is taking too much kind-of effort to actually become anything worthwhile. "nu-uh" "UH-HUUUUH" aren't really all that interesting to read back to back
 

Gerishnakov

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Jun 15, 2010
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It's as if a theatre critic were to complain that film is not an art form. The latter is derived from the former, as modern games are, to an extent, derived from film, but this does not prevent it from being an art form itself. An art form that critics of other mediums do not have much worth saying about.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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Gerishnakov said:
It's as if a theatre critic were to complain that film is not an art form. The latter is derived from the former, as modern games are, to an extent, derived from film, but this does not prevent it from being an art form itself. An art form that critics of other mediums do not have much worth saying about.
It's not a level playing field. A game of Civilization simply doesn't provide the same commentary on what is the way a painting or novel does. Heck, it would be hard to argue it does so in any way.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, only what you said was wrong. Imagine if I were to say as a critic "science is not art". You could not expect to say "An art form that critics of other mediums do not have much worth saying about" with impunity the way you are doing with games. You have to make an argument for it.
 

Gorrath

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Feb 22, 2013
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Requia said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Requia said:
Gorrath said:
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection.
Yes it is. Hell, there are critical pieces of free speech case law (Hustler Magazine vs Falwell) that are based on porn.
Hustler v Falwell was about a parody Falwell didn't like in Hustler magazine, not about pornography. I just looked it up to double-check.
Oh, damn, I thought it was one of those parody porn pieces.
Indeed, if pornography were protected speech then the government could not regulate its sale to children. That's what the big case in California was all about, restricting the sale of certain games to kids. Since games were ruled to be free speech, it rendered California's regulation on sale to minors unconstitutional. This is also why pornography creators can be arrested and charged with crimes under certain local decency laws if the material they produce is too extreme. Additionally, pornography has its own legal definition, that way film makers have a clear way of knowing what does and does not constitute porn. Even owning things like hentai manga can get you charged with a crime if said manga is deemed indecent and pornographic.
 

Gorrath

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mfeff said:
If I take the bulk of your argument correctly, you are saying that because no game has jumped the critical analysis hurdle, as determined by academics and trained critics, that no game can be considered art without appealing to such a broad definition of art that the term is meaningless. If that is your meaning, then I contest it outright. Even in academic circles there are now classes dedicated specifically to studying games as a form of art. If no games passed the academic and critical criteria to be considered art, then are all such University level classes nothing more than faffing about?

The argument, "Can you name the artist?" is absurd on its face. Being able to name the creator of a piece of art has nothing at all whatsoever to do with a things status as art. Even the most cursory examination of this argument renders it laughable. Is any piece of art for which we don't know the creator rendered not art? If I can't name the lighting effects guy from The Godfather does that create doubt of its status? Art begs no artist, art begs only an observer to be touched and moved. Certainly art would not exist without an artist, but knowing the artist is not a criteria for a things status as art.

Your argument that the pseudo academic will throw up examples of specific games while the academic shoots them all down until the pseudo academic resorts to a 'value' argument is indeed something that happens, but only because the pseudo academic doesn't know enough to call out the academic's assumptions about those specific examples as the BS that they are. The claim that no game can withstand critical analysis is blatantly false (in my opinion) or at least a matter of academic debate that is no where near settled.

I also take extreme opposition to your use of Kojima's comments as having laid things to rest. This strikes me as an appeal to authority. His argument that the highest ideal of games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction is backed by nothing more than his own claim. Certainly, Spec Ops: The Line was not devised with this supposedly 'highest' ideal in mind. It is hardly the only game who's structure, narrative and otherwise, is not made to appeal to the broadest possible audience or to achieve any predetermined percent of player satisfaction. Certainly games are a business and that has an effect on a great number of games and how they are devised, but dismissing the whole medium because of that would be like dismissing literature or films for exactly the same reasons.

What's more, whether something is niche or created for the masses is in no way a good determinant as to whether that thing is art or not. Frigging Shakespeare was created for penny theaters and made to appeal to the masses of the time. Whether a game is made to serve a niche or a mass has no bearing whatsoever on its status as art and to claim otherwise strikes me as highly pretentious and logically flawed.

Please excuse me if I have unintentionally misrepresented or misunderstood any of your points or if I've missed responding to anything that you stated that was a core part of your argument.
 

Bunnymarn

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klaynexas3 said:
ticklefist said:
Would you feel like an artist if you were told exactly what to make comics about, how they are to be scripted and exactly how to draw them? I wouldn't. Same applies to games.
Do...do you not know how most comics are done? Because most comics have a bunch of different people working together to make them, not just one guy that draws, writes, produces, and everything with it. Very few major works of art are actually made by one man alone, and quite frankly collaborative projects tend to be the best. If each musician in an orchestra just decided to do whatever the fuck they felt like doing while paying now mind to the other people in the orchestra, I'm afraid to say it will sound like utter shit. It might be art, but that doesn't make it any less shit. That's how games work, someone has an idea, and they work with multiple people to help them flesh it out. That one person does NOT call all the shots, because I'm doubting one man can be a brilliant writer, programmer, animator, musician, voice actor, tester, and mass producer. If that's what you define as art, you have the most superficial standards I've ever seen.
I'm not 100% certain as to exactly what ticklefist's point is, but with all those things that you mentioned, about writing, programming, etc. I see no reason to claim that they're all artists. They're closer to craftsmen than to artists. I'm not trying to say that movies or comics are not flat out not artworks, but it seems obscure to call someone an artist just because they are 'brilliant' at what they do. By that reasoning, a brilliant brick-layer is also an artist. And, if we follow that reasoning further, then there is no real distinction between art and craft. The problem, however, is that there are some works that are not created from skill, but are nevertheless considered art (I'm not saying that something can't be art and craft, but rather that it seems absurd to call something like Duchamp's Fountain a work of craft).

Also, I don't mean to be rude, but you contradicted yourself with your orchestra example and your condemnation of ticklefist's 'superficial standards'. If you are judging an orchestra to be shit where every musician is doing their own thing because it sounds bad, then you are only judging it on aesthetic grounds (even though it's probably clear they had other intentions).

This kind of brings me to my second point about how people view modern/post-modern art, in particular.

Elate said:
All those games mentioned, are shit. No way about it, they're boring and dull.

You want a good compelling game, with a strong, well told narrative, and engaging GAMEplay, and a good matching aesthetic? Bastion. I say it every time, and it's 3000x more fun than Dear Esther will ever be, games like that, to me are what some would consider "modern art". You know the kind, a black square painted on a white canvas which people stare at thoughtfully rubbing their chins as they come up with contrived reasoning behind it, and the social message it is trying to convey from the artist, when really, it's a black square on a white canvas. I feel that is what Dear Esther is trying to be, in short, pseudo-high brow bullshit.
Before I start, I'm going to say I'm sorry, but this is the kind of view that really does my head in when it comes to modern art. Can everyone please stop trying to analyse every single work based on its appearance as an object? Art, and modern art particularly, does not come with some neat little package where you look at it and say "Oh, I get that". Something like Malevich's Black Square does, you know, require some effort on the part of the audience. People seem to expect art to be like a prostitute where you pay the entrance fee to the gallery and then get to just understand all the works of art in there. Art is not there to spoon feed you its meaning. Yes it's a black square on a white canvas; that's the point. Malevich was trying to completely abstract painting from the real world and from representation to test the limits of where painting ceased to be art. Why is it that when people have to actually properly engage with a work of art, they revert to slandering and (essentially) bitching that because they don't get it, then it must be some "pseudo-high brow bullshit". Christ, put in some bloody effort when you look at art.

Can everyone please spend a few minutes going through a couple of the movements on here: http://www.theartstory.org/section_movements.htm - I promise you'll all be better for it. Reading Joseph Kosuth's Art After Philosophy would not go astray either.

I'm sorry for derailing the discussion from games as art; on that I will say that games are not art, just as paintings or sculptures are not art. Games CAN be art, in the same way that a painting CAN be a work of art. What exactly is art is where the proper discussion should be.