ace_of_something said:
Ragdrazi said:
Here's another one. So, this patty wagon PA system tells us to keep on the sidewalk or we'll be arrested. Cops form a line that's a good two feet back from the sidewalk. Something like that. A good fair distance. Many of us who'd brought bikes assumed that was there so that people could legally ride them (illegal to ride on the sidewalk here). Right in front of me, two guys have pulled their bikes off the sidewalk, and were starting to get on them. An officer suddenly grabbed one of them and tossed him over his shoulder. It was pretty impressive. And so suddenly that guy was being hogtied on the pavement. Second guy, the guy right behind the first guy, another officer just shoves him backwards knocking him into the crowd and almost knocking his bike into me.
Why'd that happen?
I know Seattle has had some pretty serious problems with protesters getting out of hand but I?ve never had to deal with a protest that got out of control (although, the KKK one mentioned earlier was pretty scary). If I could take a guess the PA said ?get on the sidewalk? not ?get on the sidewalk unless you?re on a bike.? Sounds like the officers got a bit amped up and carried away, at least from what you said. I would?ve said to the guys not on the sidewalk ?Hey, that means you too!? If it seemed like they heard me or understood but choose to ignore it that?s when I?d have to use force. Not sure what throwing the guy accomplishes though other than being an impressive display of force.
Got off on a tangent there; Protests are really actually legally? kind of weird ? laws that normally aren?t enforced or prosecuted are at a protest because often all it takes is one guy, or one incident to cause a full scale riot. So, police are quite a bit more touchy about what you do at a protest; because those cops want to go home when they get off work; not a hospital.
You know, you're coming really close to giving me the answer I had thought you were going to give me, but had hoped you would not. You say Seattle has had some pretty serious problems with protests getting out of hand, and yet I can relate these stories to you and have you not question ~who~ at these protests was getting out of hand.
Here's another story. I had a crush on a girl. She was really short. She was really cute. She was an activist, like me, but she was a little more passionate. Iraq War sequel talk was getting underway. Previous to this point, all anyone had focused on was the WTO. Protests tend to be clearing houses of like minded political messages, sure. But, around this time, protests seemed to be losing a cohesive single point. I stopped going to them for a while. She did not. There was one protest. It wasn't a permitted protest, and more than anything, that alone seemed to be its point. Is a city's ability to withhold a permit a de-facto quashing of the First Amendment. I didn't think that was reason enough to go to a protest, she did. So, she was at this protest, standing next to a person video taping it, and that's how I know everything I'm going to tell you. I watched the tape.
So it was late in the day and people were braking up and going home. They were on the sidewalk. Tape shows that. They were obeying police orders. Tape shows that. Suddenly, an officer lunged forward and grabbed her around the chest. She's short, so if you wanted to grab her really the only thing you could grab would be the chest. She reacted because suddenly there was a man grabbing at her. Two officers came up on either side and literally doused her with pepper spray. She was knocked down and hit her head on the curb. She was then dragged into the intersection by her hair and knelt on by two officers. With the combination of the pepper spray and the two large men kneeling on her four-foot-nothing frame, she stopped breathing mid-"arrest." She was revived at a near by ambulance, still in plastic wrist cuffs, and taken to a hospital. There she was released from custody without being charged with anything.
I came to see her about a week later and she showed me the tape. She said she wasn't going to press charges. I asked her why. She said, "Truth is stranger than fiction." I can only assume that means she was intimidated by the police in the hospital. She left town shortly there after.
Yeah, so protests getting out of control then, huh. Let's go back. WTO. Worst example from that time you can find. Number of officers reporting injuries: 56. Three quarters of the injuries were caused by police mishandling their own weapons and equipment. Of the 15 that can be blamed on protesters the most common complaint is back injury from lifting. About 100 protesters were confirmed in hospital (and that's likely an underreporting due to the people who were too scared to go to hospital), with reports from medics relating broken limbs, compound fractures of the jaw, and rubber bullets imbedded in skin. That's what happens when you shoot point blank. Not supposed to do that. At WTO, protesters where generally locked down. Physically restrained to the place they were stranding. They couldn't have attacked an officer if they had wanted to. And even with over 600 people arrested, and even with all this media coverage, the number of cases that went to trail was 14. And out of those there were only two convictions.
Now, you seem like a reasonable person, and I'm sorry if I'm coming across as attacking you. But I've never met a police officer who has acted in a logical and reasonable manner. You're the first... so you're hearing it. I can understand the idea that officers might want to keep a tight rein on protests to keep things safe. That's reasonable. Same reason we had our orange vest squads. Ok, but here's another story... you know, in case this post wasn't too long enough.
Iraq War 2 was getting underway. People from the suburbs were starting to protest. Families with kids always were at our protests, but now they were starting to be the majority. So, one protest, the cops go further. Not only do they shove the people onto the sidewalks and make random arrests, they brake the protest into about 5 groups and force each group to take different routes out of Downtown. They separated parents from their children. A lot of crying kids faces ended up plastered on the front pages. The protest community, itself, had to take charge of making sure these kids found their way home. So, in your approximation, were the officers worried that if they left the kids with the families there would be a riot?
See, I'm worried you're giving me the answer to the question "Why did that happen" I didn't want you to give. I'm relating to you what I've seen. Cops acting like thugs. Stepping way out of line. And you're telling me this was done because officers were worried about their safety? That you "know Seattle has had some pretty serious problems with protesters getting out of hand?" Again, you seem like a reasonable person, but, apparently, you didn't even know these things were common place at the time.
I'm worried that the answer to the question of "Why did that happen" is because good officers such as yourself simply assume that other members of their profession are right, and don't take the time to question what happened. I'm worried that things like this have kept happening because good officers are compliant or complacent. Am I wrong?
