Asturiel's Weekly: Judgement

[Asturiel]

And now back to where I belong[sub]Hell was full shaddup![/sub]

I came to think of this when I read through the comments of the Facebook story (about the mother getting her kidnapped kids back). I was curious as to why some people were quick to judge weither this was right or wrong, when no description of either parent was given. Even then the description is likely to be bull, one story up here was a stabbing at a local high school, the victim was portrayed as the complete victim that never saw this coming and that everybody at the school was shocked about this. The last part was true, they were shocked, but that was because they were surprised somebody did something finally to this guy. The kid who got stabbed was apparently the terror of the school, students terrified of him, teachers too scared to do anything about it and so on. The person who stabbed him apparently just came back from being hospitalized by the guy. Yet the stabber is the bad guy and the victim the victim right? [sub]Still is but there is more to the story.[/sub]

Which brings me to this, why do people feel the need to pass their judgement on something, when they are uncertain of the variables that are inside it?

 

[Scde2]

I say because people use what they are given, even though they probably shouldn't.

 

[delet]

When something breaks from the normal, it's easier to make said thing outcast rather than accept it. It's a sad truth about human nature methinks.

 

[Asturiel]

When something breaks from the normal, it's easier to make said thing outcast rather than accept it. It's a sad truth about human nature methinks.

I suppose it is true, as soon as things stray from the norm they are out of the group, and the group is an unforgiving mistress aint she?

I say because people use what they are given, even though they probably shouldn't.

Very true, really wish people would wait for some more givens/truths.

 

[delet]

When something breaks from the normal, it's easier to make said thing outcast rather than accept it. It's a sad truth about human nature methinks.

I suppose it is true, as soon as things stray from the norm they are out of the group, and the group is an unforgiving mistress aint she?

Until the 'odd' people break out and join together to create a group themselves. That reinforces their oddities and gives them more a sense of belonging, strengthening them so they can be proud of their odd-ness. I'd much prefer to be in that kind of group than those who start the shunning process.

 

[Irridium]

Not quite sure.

I find it interesting. And I've seen many who suggested in that thread that perhaps reuniting them with their mother wasn't the best solution for the children, get shunned for it. They didn't suggest letting the kids stay with their father who kidnapped them, but that we shouldn't immediately jump onto the mothers side without any solid facts about the parents.

Interesting nonetheless.

 

[Yureina]

Because sometimes people just like to get someone else hanged just for the fun of it, if only because its something different from their typical experiences.

 

[Asturiel]

Until the 'odd' people break out and join together to create a group themselves. That reinforces their oddities and gives them more a sense of belonging, strengthening them so they can be proud of their odd-ness. I'd much prefer to be in that kind of group than those who start the shunning process.

Then the original group gets threatened and attacks the new group, they fight until the odds lose. Then the odds get persecuted again until they branch off and make their group and the rest is rinsing and repeating...

Not quite sure.

I find it interesting. And I've seen many who suggested in that thread that perhaps reuniting them with their mother wasn't the best solution for the children, get shunned for it. They didn't suggest letting the kids stay with their father who kidnapped them, but that we shouldn't immediately jump onto the mothers side without any solid facts about the parents.

Interesting nonetheless.

I thought the general consensus on that thread was, it's a moral grey area but perhaps it wasn't the best for these kids to be in some strangers care (the mother in this case could arguably be a stranger).

Because sometimes people just like to get someone else hanged just for the fun of it, if only because its something different from their typical experiences.

No skin off your back right? Crying shame, but I would say it's more a sense of belonging, you stick with people of similar nature and tendencies and get rid of the others to create a better place for your group, sometimes this is just shunning and secret shunning sometimes it becomes national policy...

 

[Yureina]

Because sometimes people just like to get someone else hanged just for the fun of it, if only because its something different from their typical experiences.

No skin off your back right? Crying shame, but I would say it's more a sense of belonging, you stick with people of similar nature and tendencies and get rid of the others to create a better place for your group, sometimes this is just shunning and secret shunning sometimes it becomes national policy...

I was saying that more in the context of people just liking to beat people up for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. People who are looking for someone else to smack around, and so they are willing to pass out a judgment and go after them for the smallest of reasons because that reason is good enough for them to start some fun.

Alas, this is an attitude I have had in the past at a few points. I hope i've grown out of it though.

 

[Irridium]

Not quite sure.

I find it interesting. And I've seen many who suggested in that thread that perhaps reuniting them with their mother wasn't the best solution for the children, get shunned for it. They didn't suggest letting the kids stay with their father who kidnapped them, but that we shouldn't immediately jump onto the mothers side without any solid facts about the parents.

Interesting nonetheless.

I thought the general consensus on that thread was, it's a moral grey area but perhaps it wasn't the best for these kids to be in some strangers care (the mother in this case could arguably be a stranger).

There were quite a few saying that since the father kidnapped the kids when they were young, he was an ass with no redeemable qualities. I and many others brought up that he could have taken them because the mother wasn't the best parent, and didn't want to have to go through the long, costly legal battles for it. Battles in which he could have lost since from what I've seen, the courts will try their hardest to give the kids to the mother.

I've seen plenty of mothers who are awful parents, who's (ex) husbands were far better people.

 

[delet]

Until the 'odd' people break out and join together to create a group themselves. That reinforces their oddities and gives them more a sense of belonging, strengthening them so they can be proud of their odd-ness. I'd much prefer to be in that kind of group than those who start the shunning process.

Then the original group gets threatened and attacks the new group, they fight until the odds lose. Then the odds get persecuted again until they branch off and make their group and the rest is rinsing and repeating...

I've been lucky enough to be part of a group with people who are odd and all, but aren't completely socially ignorant. We're on friendly terms with the 'normal' people, but we stick with out own. No needless wars for us!

 

[Bellvedere]

I would say it's more the fault of the person telling the story - in most cases the media. It's about profit so telling a story that will provoke public interest is better for them. Telling a story about an bully that got stabbed is interesting but it's something people will read and then forgot about. No one can sympathise with a bully or someone that goes about knifing people. You can't right an indepth article about it. If not for the angle they chose it would just be a footnote somewhere.

I can think of a similar incident a little while back here in Australia where a man was found not guilty of rape because the woman was wearing skinny jeans that could not be removed without collaboration. Everyone was in an uproar insisting that he must be guilty. However there was also the fact that she was an unreliable witness who made stuff up and the man who was accused of raping her was her bestfriends ex. That the skinny jeans was even an argument is pretty ridiculous but it wasn't the whole case.

So I would say it's just people responding to how they've been positioned. Some people are susceptible to it and some people just like to argue. The real story comes out eventually if anyone still cares about it. The truth behind it is, no one's ever in a position to judge, but people like to get involved and express opinions.

 

[arsenicCatnip]

I would say it's more the fault of the person telling the story - in most cases the media. It's about profit so telling a story that will provoke public interest is better for them. Telling a story about an bully that got stabbed is interesting but it's something people will read and then forgot about. No one can sympathise with a bully or someone that goes about knifing people. You can't right an indepth article about it. If not for the angle they chose it would just be a footnote somewhere.

Yeah, I agree. Most of the time, storytellers aren't objective. Authors, journalists, even people you just talk to... they put a spin on things to make the story either self-serving or more interesting to the audience. And if the story you're hearing isn't told from an objective viewpoint, you're even more likely than you were to make a judgment about what you've heard, and decry/support it.

 

[Asturiel]

I was saying that more in the context of people just liking to beat people up for the sheer enjoyment of doing it. People who are looking for someone else to smack around, and so they are willing to pass out a judgment and go after them for the smallest of reasons because that reason is good enough for them to start some fun.

Alas, this is an attitude I have had in the past at a few points. I hope i've grown out of it though.

So your saying we judge to give a reason to hurt others because we like to hurt people because it makes us feel stronger and better?

There were quite a few saying that since the father kidnapped the kids when they were young, he was an ass with no redeemable qualities. I and many others brought up that he could have taken them because the mother wasn't the best parent, and didn't want to have to go through the long, costly legal battles for it. Battles in which he could have lost since from what I've seen, the courts will try their hardest to give the kids to the mother.

I've seen plenty of mothers who are awful parents, who's (ex) husbands were far better people.

Regardless, without knowing these people personally we cannot formulate an opinion since there are a million and one scenarios that could be played out here. Half with the father as the hero and the other as the mother, with a few with a dog as the hero who sniffed them out of a cave filled with dragons.

I've been lucky enough to be part of a group with people who are odd and all, but aren't completely socially ignorant. We're on friendly terms with the 'normal' people, but we stick with out own. No needless wars for us!

Mostly just went abstract there since most odd people hold it in and don't let those "normies" see why we aren't a part of them.

So I would say it's just people responding to how they've been positioned. Some people are susceptible to it and some people just like to argue. The real story comes out eventually if anyone still cares about it. The truth behind it is, no one's ever in a position to judge, but people like to get involved and express opinions.

Ahh the fabled "opinion" I forgot about that. The thing the cool kids have so therefor we need one on everything, thats a good point.

 

[delet]

I've been lucky enough to be part of a group with people who are odd and all, but aren't completely socially ignorant. We're on friendly terms with the 'normal' people, but we stick with out own. No needless wars for us!

Mostly just went abstract there since most odd people hold it in and don't let those "normies" see why we aren't a part of them.

Yea, we're lucky. I'm glad I don't live in certain other counties where I'd be all alone without any support of my fellow odd-men-out.

 

[Bellvedere]

So I would say it's just people responding to how they've been positioned. Some people are susceptible to it and some people just like to argue. The real story comes out eventually if anyone still cares about it. The truth behind it is, no one's ever in a position to judge, but people like to get involved and express opinions.

Ahh the fabled "opinion" I forgot about that. The thing the cool kids have so therefor we need one on everything, thats a good point.

Hmm yeah opinions who can be bothered with those...

Seriously though what's the point of anything if you don't have an opinion about it. Some people react more strongly to some things than others. Just because you don't care doesn't mean others shouldn't.

Yes some things seem or probably are trivial and unimportant, such as what everyone on facebook thinks of Justin Bieber but it's something to talk about and something people have a right to express. Who can go through life liking nothing, hating nothing, liking what people do, hating what people do. Your allowed to say what you think.

The problem you're having methinks is that now everyone's opinion can be expressed in a public forum not just with their friends?

Sometimes we only get part of the story. While we should always be aware of this, it's not directly the fault of those that get caught up in the sensationalism of a good story. Misjudgement is rife, people are directed to believe what will cause the most interest, the most expressing of these 'fearsome' opinions. That's the aim.

 

[Asturiel]

Hmm yeah opinions who can be bothered with those...

Seriously though what's the point of anything if you don't have an opinion about it. Some people react more strongly to some things than others. Just because you don't care doesn't mean others shouldn't.

Yes some things seem or probably are trivial and unimportant, such as what everyone on facebook thinks of Justin Bieber but it's something to talk about and something people have a right to express. Who can go through life liking nothing, hating nothing, liking what people do, hating what people do. Your allowed to say what you think.

The problem you're having methinks is that now everyone's opinion can be expressed in a public forum not just with their friends?

Sometimes we only get part of the story. While we should always be aware of this, it's not directly the fault of those that get caught up in the sensationalism of a good story. Misjudgement is rife, people are directed to believe what will cause the most interest, the most expressing of these 'fearsome' opinions. That's the aim.

True, opinions of things are important, but basing them on things as thin and breakable as paper is what I don't like. The lack of a basis to your opinion just means that you shouldn't go around saying it like its nothing. Only publicize your opinion if you can defend it, thats what I would like in a perfect world.

 

[Blueruler182]

I don't judge people in news stories. I make jokes, the worse making me feel like less of a human being, or I speculate based on what I know. I never make a definitive judgment simply because I know that I don't know everything.

That being said, we're in a cynical age. People pass judgments fast because they automatically assume the worse. That's a generalization, but it happens a lot. The facebook story was a good example of bait for these people. It seemed like it was trying to be pro-mom while giving few pro-mom facts. And, as mentioned above, the fabled "opinion" seems all important for some reason. Enough so that people are going to make one and state it based on little to no information.

Some would argue forums are made on this.

 

[Bellvedere]

snip

True, opinions of things are important, but basing them on things as thin and breakable as paper is what I don't like. The lack of a basis to your opinion just means that you shouldn't go around saying it like its nothing. Only publicize your opinion if you can defend it, thats what I would like in a perfect world.

Haha, definitely would have to be a perfect world. In addition you would have to add that people can't lie through omission.

You could probably defend most opinions through omission. For example there's this bloke, Dr. Walter Stark, he wrote this magnificent report called 'Threats to the Great Barrier Reef [http://www.ipa.org.au/library/IPABackgrounder17-1.pdf]. This guys a Ph.D and it's a published report. In this report he 'debunks' threats to the Great Barrier Reef. I think my favourite argument of his was the one against oil spills causing any damage because "oil floats and reefs don't". Technically true, oil does float, reefs don't float but he's kind of missing some details.

Same is true of the news stories you talked about in the original topic. Omitted that the guy was a bully, omitted whether the mom was even a good mom. Considering the writers of the news stories had more exposure to the actual events than me reading it on the internet, technically they would be in a better position to defend their opinion or rather the opinion they're selling.

 

[Waif]

People pass judgement, it's what they do. It seems to be ingrained in the human psyche in many ways. Perhaps evolution has some part in this, but what we do know is that people pass judgments every day. Though usually with innocuous things, like what to eat for breakfast, or what clothes they may be wearing. Judging comes naturally, and is usually based on details known to the person at the time. The more they know, the more they can make an "Informed Judgement". Most judgments aren't this, but most judgments don't affect other people in a negative way even though they aren't informed. They usually deal in the personal, or super-personal of the individual making the judgment. People make judgments about others everyday, just as easily as they make judgments about themselves (for better or worse). So it only comes naturally to judge others with such ease as we are used to making judgments all the time. Though "enlightened" people tend to think deeply on subjects before making a judgment call. Sadly, many of us just don't have the time to make well-thought out judgments. So the quick and uninformed judgments tend to take priority. At least this is how I see it.