Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism

[PaintedDeath]

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I'm not the typical guy to browse forums unless I'm looking for some kind of solution to a problem I'm having, but this one was on the front page, and I just had to read it, and after reading, just had to register and post.

I was brought up kind of strangely. My parent's are not religious, if anything my father is one of these "Anti-Theists". I spent allot of time with my uncle though, who was paraplegic. He was very relgious, but also very insane. I learned allot from him regarding christianity and the lack of belief.

I consider myself an "agnostic-Theist", or an agnostic who leans more toward the existence of a higher power, rather than the non-existence of one. Religion is a GREAT topic, that I love to discuss with EVERYONE because I love hearing everyones take on it. I always approach it with the attitude to change people's viewpoint's to not be so hard-lined. You can do this with both the very religious, to those who want to spit venom all over religion. You have to understand a few things....

If you are a hardcore christian who wants to convert everyone, you need to seriously look at the flaws of your religion. Aren't you taught that humans are inherently sinful? That we sin all day, every day without even a thought about it? And isn't that also the reason that your Savior Jesus died on the cross? So that you, and ALL of mankind could be washed of their sins?

And then their are the hardcore atheists that will spout scientific data disproving the existence of god, and all of that will always all boil down to, "You can't prove that god exists!", and I always tell them, prove to me he doesn't. You cannot. The same way you cannot prove to me that you are standing there right in front of me. This could all be a dream I'm having.

I like to look at the teachings of the bible and documents of other faiths, simply as being guidelines. Like, these are the guidelines to living. The golden rule if you will. If you are a hardline Atheist who hates religion, what exactly is it that you hate? If you try to disprove the existence of a god, if your so sure that God doesn't exist, why are you trying so hard to disprove it? What are you scared of? Why do you need concrete evidence?

If you think people coming together every Sunday inside of a church to praise something they truely believe in, and doing it in a peaceful way that is doing nothing more then bringing people together for a common cause, is that so wrong? What exactly is wrong with that? What's wrong with people caring a, moral fiber, that makes it so that they live their lives the best that they can, doing the best they can for other people?

As I said, I love to have conversations with people about religion, just in an attempt to get them to view it in a different light. I don't feel that my little post here really managed to expand on all of my thoughts and concepts, but I'll close it with this. Nothing really irks me more than people just straight up dismissing the possibility of a higher power, or intelligent creation.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I like him, can we keep him?

 

[Ultrajoe]

I like him, can we keep him?

I saw him first.

Excellent first post, a breath of reason in a shitstorm i had written off as unsalvageable.

 

[SecretTacoNinja]

I am a bit of an anti-theist, I hate religion. I turn nasty when they say "I believe in god and my saviour... blah blah blah", then I have to tell them my 'Mistranslation in the Bible' argument.

They still don't listen...

 

[Ultrajoe]

I am a bit of an anti-theist, I hate religion. I turn nasty when they say "I believe in god and my saviour... blah blah blah", then I have to tell them my 'Mistranslation in the Bible' argument.

They still don't listen...

I don't think it's the argument they ignore such as the person espousing it.

Not to offend, but if your first move is on the offensive its very easy to be written off as someone not to listen too.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Painted death, while I agree with most of your post, there's one paragraph which I just can't agree with.

And then their are the hardcore atheists that will spout scientific data disproving the existence of god, and all of that will always all boil down to, "You can't prove that god exists!", and I always tell them, prove to me he doesn't. You cannot. The same way you cannot prove to me that you are standing there right in front of me. This could all be a dream I'm having.

Yes, we can't prove that he doesn't exist. However, that doesn't mean we should act as though it does. Allow me to conduct a simple thought experiment.

If I told you that a invisible, tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in a invisible pink mini cooper was heading right for you, would you jump out of way? I mean, that would be the logical thing to do if you knew it was there. However, we can't prove it's existence, and I'm fairly certain you wouldn't jump out of the way.

And yes, while this thought experiment is a bit flawed, you should be able the understand the point I'm trying to make.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Yes, we can't prove that he doesn't exist. However, that doesn't mean we should act as though it does. Allow me to conduct a simple thought experiment.

If I told you that a invisible, tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in a invisible pink mini cooper was heading right for you, would you jump out of way? I mean, that would be the logical thing to do if you knew it was there. However, we can't prove it's existence, and I'm fairly certain you wouldn't jump out of the way.

And yes, while this thought experiment is a bit flawed, you should be able the understand the point I'm trying to make.

Reductio Ad Absurdum. Bad argument.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Reductio Ad Absurdum. Bad argument.

Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to the absurd"), also known as an apagogical argument, reductio ad impossibile, or proof by contradiction, is a type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument and derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original claim must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result.

It might be that there might be a kink in my train of thought, but I don't see a reductio ab absurdum in it.

However, I tried to say that it's a bad counterargument to say we can't prove it doesn't exist. The appropriate response would be to hit the person on the head with the nearest blunt object, because frankly, it's not much of an argument.

 

[Simski]

I'd have to say that I'm an anti-theist.
However I strongly disagree that I should not be referred to as an atheist, I'm simply both of them.

I have a strong belief in that if you have a religion, you should be able to defend it in an argument.
If you can not defend your religion, you are ignorant and not worthy of your religion.

I believe it is right of me to do this, much like how a religious person may question my beliefs (or rather the lack of them).

 

[Alreka]

i'm sorry but i just can't call someone stupid because they beleive in something different to what i do, yes i am an atehist and i do so much so luv getting into arguments with my friends to pass the time, but it is unfair to call them "unintelligent" because they have a different beleif to what u do

 

[Simski]

i'm sorry but i just can't call someone stupid because they beleive in something different to what i do, yes i am an atehist and i do so much so luv getting into arguments with my friends to pass the time, but it is unfair to call them "unintelligent" because they have a different beleif to what u do

I can defend my beliefs.
If they can't, they and their beliefs are stupid :/

 

[NeroScuro]

There is no such thing as 'anti-theists'. There are atheists, and there are atheists who are jerks. Being intolerant of other's beliefs isn't a philosophical choice, it's a personality trait. Christians who are intolerant of Atheists aren't anti-atheists, they're still Christians who just happen to be jerks. Simple.

Also, for all the Atheists acting like intellectually superior beings taking the 'scientific' choice - you're just as unscientific as the Christians. Scientifically, we can theorise that no God took part in the creation of life on Earth, but as to what created the universe itself and defined the universal constants that make life here possible, we have no idea. That isn't any indication that a God exists, but it isn't proof that one doesn't either.

In such a situation, the scientific response would be observe the events preceding and following the big bang and come up with a theory which postulates why such events occured and thus why the universe started. Since we can not observe the events leading up to the big bang, and the events following it were in no were affected by the prior state of the universe (in theory), it is currently impossible to say what or who created the universe.

No, it is not 'more likely' that no God took part in creating the universe, that isn't scientific. At all. Occum's razor is only a scientifically acceptable means of determining cause when you have several theories that fit the evidence, and we don't have any evidence (and thus no theories).

Agnosticism would be the 'intelligent' choice, for now.

 

[Dahemo]

Gentlemen, when we conduct the big-boy arguements can we please use the correct terminology and definitions?

Atheists do not subscribe to any standardised religious format. That is all it means. Agnostics do not believe in anything other than the natural world, although Theistic Agnostics subscribe to a religion morally without accepting or believing the central spiritual premises (such as God, reincarnation etc). Atheists believe many varied things but are joined by this one commonality.

That said, anti-theism (a non-existent term) could fall into either camp, though traditionally, the tendency is to refer to agnostics using you definition. So what you meant was Atheists vs. Agnostic, thought really the discussion is more to do with religious entitlement, in which case as Westerners we are fundamentally entitled to our religious beliefs, and the concept of the poster above who believes we have to justify our beliefs is talking nonsense.

Faith extends beyond the bounds of intellectual debate, at it's root it is a state of mind where we accept things which we cannot prove, and the differences grow from here. As a practising buddhist I resent the idea that I don't deserve to practice my religion because I cannot prove to someone that when i die I will be reincarnated in another form...


EDIT: For the gentleman above, it's Ockam's Razor...

 

[m_jim]

EDIT: Sorry, I'm a bit late to the party...
I go back and forth in believing in a very uninvolved higher power and not believing at all, but I do have some grasp on Christian theology, so I'm going to pick on everyone.

I'm... highly outnumbered.

Christian, believe in a higher power, but won't give anyone any evangalism/flack but a "If you want to talk, I'm cool to" about religion. Frankly, I believe in the "Do unto others" rule. It's a golden rule, even among Bible-thumpers, but it's a rule that's most often ignored.

Your choice in religion, is just that, yours. If I start shoving my religion down your throat, am I any better then a "godless heretic who cuts down Christians in the street"? They're both sins, and they're both in the Ten Commandments.

So you think that spreading the word of God is a sin? If anything, that sort of view point is borderline blasphemy (not by my standard, but by biblical standard).

When the praying was done she sat down next to me and asked why I hadn't stood up. When I replied that I was an atheist and that praying would have been very hypocritical of me, she seemed shocked and even slightly offended that I didn't share her Cristian beliefs. Needless to say, we didn't exchange numbers.

This was not a one time thing, and I'm sure it's happened to others of you who are atheists (Or even have different religions and have been turned away because of it.)

I've been trying for quite some time now to understand what it is about religious people (Predominantly Christians, because where I'm from is a mostly Christian society and I don't know of many people of other faiths) that makes them so closed minded, and so disrespectful toward other people's beliefs. After some serious thought and looking into this, I came across what I believe to be the reason:
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Why can't we all just get along?

I hate to tell you this, Jobz, but it's part of their religion why you can't get along. Technically, they are supposed to treat you with a modest amount of respect, even though you are a "heathen," but for her, it would be a sin to develop any sort of close relationship with you. And again, part of their religion, if followed strictly, is to more or less shove "The Word" down your throat.
To the folks spouting the "love thy neighbor" or "judge not lest yee be judged" defense, you really misunderstand that passage. It's not saying let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya; as scholar interpret it, I think it's more along the lines of "don't think of yourself as The Judge" or else you're going to get some holy smackdown. There is nothing in Christian theology that I am aware of that is against speaking against an "evil" person, and if you anti-theists are ranting and raving, you would qualify under their definition of "evil."

I was an atheist for a substantial proportion of my life, and I found that if you don't WANT to get into a discussion, it's usually pretty easy to get out of it. Most atheists and anti-theists, as I see it, are just itching for a fight because they think that their views make them superior.

 

[Legendel]

I'm a Roman catholic who have unfortunately met afew of these anti-theists you speak of ^^ I have neither told anyone their beliefs are wrong or stupid, infact I like to listen to my friends views on their religions (as we all beileve in different things from being muslim to believing that everything has combined spirits), and I feel this mutal understanding of well, "thats not what I believe personally but your ideas are interesting" makes things highly entertaining. Haha, even religious jokes aren't offensive amoung friends =P just as long as it is a joke. Anyway The Anti-theist, I have met some and they aren't pleasent people, narrow minded, and insulting. But I suppose there are their kind who do believe (called extremists) their religion is the only true way. It's not set to just non-believers.

I just would like to see them all in a no rules cage match ^^

 

[savandicus]

If I told you that a invisible, tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in a invisible pink mini cooper was heading right for you, would you jump out of way? I mean, that would be the logical thing to do if you knew it was there. However, we can't prove it's existence, and I'm fairly certain you wouldn't jump out of the way.

Heres a question for you, if you told someone that and they dont jump out the way and then seconds later they get knocked down to the ground and there is evidence for them having been hit by a mini would you start to consider the possiblity of an invisible, tuxedo-wearing rhinoceros in an invisible pink mini copper?

Although alot of people say that there is no evidence for a higher power there are alot of unexplained things that happen relating to religion. I wont claim its just christianity that has slightly unusually things happening round it because there was that milk hindu thing, where some guy heard ganash ( i think) tell him that he wanted milk and suddenly statues around the world started making milk dissapear from a teaspoon. I wont say thats definately an act of god or that it is definately a hoax because i wasnt there to actually witness it myself i only know that alot of people were around.

As for things that i have witnessed myself, i've known many friends who have been 'healed' by God and although you may say they just happened to get better at the time that they were prayed for it is definately evidence. There are only 3 ways to explain healings from God, either someones lying about being ill/injured (which does happen), however the people i've known were definately not lying, either its a coincidence that it happened and by nice timing a luck they were healed when they prayed, or there is something beyond ourselfs.

So for people saying that they is no evidence for or against the exsistance of God there is, however it isnt certain evidence by any means and shouldnt be something to base a belief system in. And for those that say that miracle healings just dont happen then i'll give you a story in the times a month or two ago (although i cant find the link so you'll have to find it yourself or trust me). A lady had been disabled for many years and had been put on disability benifits for the rest of her life, and she had been healed of her disability (I think she was in a wheelchair). She had then contacted the disability benifits service to tell them that she no longer needed benifits because she was perfectly healthy again however the only way to remove someone from lifelong benifits is if they die so she was still being paid benifits which the times was complaining about and hence the article. The fact that she can walk now is true, noone can disprove that, and the fact that she couldnt walk before was medically proven by multiple doctors who can general tell someone whos faking and by the fact that she spent half her life unable to walk. So it is proven that someone couldnt walk and now she can. I could quote afew more stories like an atheist guy (who i've met) who was stung by jellyfish, was pronounced medically dead, and woke up in the mortary without any medical aid suddenly a believer in God, to the great surprise of a nurse and the mortitioner (or whatever the job name is).

Anyway something for people to think about, that although science does explain alot there are also alot of explained things that happen in the world. And for someone who is considering whether or not their is a god then they do need to consider an explination for these events for themselves. Chance or something very dramatic about the things the human body can do that has yet to be discovered or some sort of higher power.

On a side note (since i like side notes) - I do not base my own faith on the unexplained events that i have seen or heard about, nor on my background or upbringing. Certainly for me i find that when i look at the world i see something logical, incrediblely complex and when you actually accept the scientific view of how the universe came to be (which i do) to me it screams of a creator, the balance of the fundemental forces, the immensely small size of an atom compared to the mind blowing size of the universe, the beauty of maths, how something some complex that millions of people throughout the years have tried to grasp and expand on for thousands of years and yet there are still things we've yet to explain in maths. Only recently were we able to prove that there is no integer answer for a^n + b^n = c^n for n > 2. A problem so simple lasted almost 3000 years and the proof to it is pages and pages long. Dark matter and the higs boson are more complexities that we still search for answers to, a unified theory of physics. The universe is incredible in its diversity and complexity and when i really think about it, i can only stand in awe at the creator God who made it all.

Edit - Once again if you want to comment please read my entire post

 

[Ultrajoe]

I think we've had all of the points on this page on the pages past.

i'm sorry but i just can't call someone stupid because they beleive in something different to what i do, yes i am an atehist and i do so much so luv getting into arguments with my friends to pass the time, but it is unfair to call them "unintelligent" because they have a different beleif to what u do

I can defend my beliefs.
If they can't, they and their beliefs are stupid :/

No, you cannot defend your beliefs, nobody can.

Thats the whole thing about a universe we have no chance of fully comprehending, saying there's no god is as ignorant as saying there is one in the long run.

And yes, you can defend facets of your 'belief' quite easily, as can any religion you care to name. Just as there are facets both sides cannot explain there is much both sides can defend with certainty.

Calling others stupid because they cannot defend facets of their beliefs is like me calling others fat because they cannot fly.

Now, if i could do that while screaming down from the heavens as i flew loops through clouds, it would be fair.

 

[Uncompetative]

I don't believe in Santa Claus.