Atheist Bible

[NeverAiling]

Before I get any more into this insanity that i already am, let me make 3 quick points.

First, you are misunderstanding me on purpose, there is no way a rational person would interpret my comments as proporting to relate the quantitative value of observation to facts as if they were inches and miles. I was making a qualitative comparison based in order to illustrate a point that you ALSO purposefully misconstrued. That it is possible to observe that a period of time, in which no degree of life exists, directly proceeds the present.

Second, I am sick and tired of religious apologetic that want to go back and 'reinterpret' the bible. You either ask us to treat it as a transcendent text, or to care how highly motivated, highly biased people contemporarily interpret it. This fails because the bible is a work of many authors, aggregated and modified over many years, like any other large work. Its history, and the non-canonical works of its authors offer non-biased insights into the intended interpretation and they rarely support the "symbolic" "non-literal" view point, although I will concede that in the instance of the creation examples I provided, they have somtimes supported symbolic views.

And finally, don't talk about straw man attacks if you don't understand the logical arguments and fallacies that the name refers to. I was not using a logical argument at all, because I was directly describing the assertions of the bible. I did not state "Study B suggest Christians are dumn, therefor the bible is false."

I stated, the bible asserts a. A is not true. If you want to contest the validity of a, or my interpretation of the assertion, see above.

Goodbye.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

But where is our moral tome, our compendium of all that we believe?

Dr. Seuss

 

[BNguyen]

Not really, no. I have degrees of belief in things based on how well they fit my observations. Its only when I have no observations that questions cannot be answered. There is always some probability that the answer will be wrong, but we can make that probability arbitrarily small by having lots of evidence. It doesn't ever go to 0, because that would require perfect knowledge about the universe which is unobtainable from within the universe.


We can only believe that we are making the probability small because we believe that our systems are correct. We invented these systems so it is correct in assuming that they are highly probable to be incorrect. No system can be sure of itself because we only base them from observations and not actual truths, we can't understand the truth because we did not create those truths.

 

[Legion]

If you were God, do you think that you would need to prove yourself to someone when there is evidence all around them?

What evidence? Suffering, starvation, rape, torture, mutilation, suicide bombings, public executions, Holy Wars?

Of course there is good in the world, but there is just as much cruelty and hatred. Not at all "evidence" of a benevolent God.

If you were God, don't you think that someone would acknowledge you for the life you live, your friends and family, the food you eat, the clothes on your back and the shelter over your head. Without God, none of this would even be.

According to your beliefs.

I will not be so rude as to ask you to "prove it" but you cannot claim it as absolute fact either.

God worked the world into such a way so that you could exist. You exist because he desired you to exist. So why not thank somebody for your existence this day, and it really can't be your parents because think of the chances that it could not of been you to be born.

If God is all knowing and powerful then he created me knowing I would not be thankful to him for the life I was given. Therefore I cannot be expected to be so.

If God is all knowing and all powerful then free will cannot exist. Otherwise how could God know what people will do?

Either:

God is powerful and knows a lot, but cannot see the future so free will exists.

or

God is all powerful and knowing and it does not.

 

[kaziard]

I'm make a guess that wikipedia is probably the densest, best organized, collection of human knowledge. But in a sense, any scientific text is a bible. The only difference is that it is true.

....you really want a flame war dont you?

 

[BNguyen]

I don't have to give you an answer. I have no evidence to favor one conclusion over any other. There are an infinite number of ways the universe could have started. I don't know which way it was. I wasn't there. Maybe somebody has some evidence to suggest a way, but I don't know of anyone who can look beyond the beginning of time.

What you refuse to do is your problem. Bold text doesn't trump Bayesian epistemology.

There are an infinite number of ways to be wrong, only one way to be correct. You'd be a fool to make a claim you don't have any evidence for.

And if you insist, I will insist you tell me how God began. Its just as useless a question.

After reading many of your remarks, I've come to realize how stupid you truly are. You claim to understand this and that and that this is more likely to happen/exist/etc. than that, but you can't see yourself for how little you know. Just because you've studied this or that you immediately think you know it all, but the truth is that almost nothing in science or these studies is correct because we go by human standards, which are the way they are because we believe them to be true. Wisdom and intellect are illusions.
And by the way, if you can't prove that the universe began because of God, then you can't mark it out as an impossibility.

Wow,way to be respectful. To be honest,I thought you would have been banned or suspended by the time I got back from school,because of your clear lack of respect for anyone with a different opinion and obvious hypocricy.

I find it truly hard to respect anyone who does not respect me on the same level.
If you've read this persons posts, they continuously go against what they said just a minute ago and sometimes in the same post the go against the point that they are trying to make, I was just pointing that out, that this person continues to say that he/she has proof, but then that there is essentially no proof at all for any answer. I just find it hard to respect those who think of themselves as all-knowing but then say that there is no evidence of data to prove that I know it all.

I'm sorry but,thats the same thing you have been doing.

I never really gave any proof to what I said and went against it by saying that there is no proof. I never considered myself all-knowing in any way shape or form. I don't have any such evidence to prove anything and I will not say that there is evidence to support this or that as fact.

 

[caross73]

I don't have to give you an answer. I have no evidence to favor one conclusion over any other. There are an infinite number of ways the universe could have started. I don't know which way it was. I wasn't there. Maybe somebody has some evidence to suggest a way, but I don't know of anyone who can look beyond the beginning of time.

What you refuse to do is your problem. Bold text doesn't trump Bayesian epistemology.

There are an infinite number of ways to be wrong, only one way to be correct. You'd be a fool to make a claim you don't have any evidence for.

And if you insist, I will insist you tell me how God began. Its just as useless a question.

After reading many of your remarks, I've come to realize how stupid you truly are. You claim to understand this and that and that this is more likely to happen/exist/etc. than that, but you can't see yourself for how little you know. Just because you've studied this or that you immediately think you know it all, but the truth is that almost nothing in science or these studies is correct because we go by human standards, which are the way they are because we believe them to be true. Wisdom and intellect are illusions.
And by the way, if you can't prove that the universe began because of God, then you can't mark it out as an impossibility.

Wow,way to be respectful. To be honest,I thought you would have been banned or suspended by the time I got back from school,because of your clear lack of respect for anyone with a different opinion and obvious hypocricy.

I find it truly hard to respect anyone who does not respect me on the same level.
If you've read this persons posts, they continuously go against what they said just a minute ago and sometimes in the same post the go against the point that they are trying to make, I was just pointing that out, that this person continues to say that he/she has proof, but then that there is essentially no proof at all for any answer. I just find it hard to respect those who think of themselves as all-knowing but then say that there is no evidence of data to prove that I know it all.

Ummm.. I respect YOU. I just think your ideas are dumb.

 

[BNguyen]

If you were God, do you think that you would need to prove yourself to someone when there is evidence all around them?

What evidence? Suffering, starvation, rape, torture, mutilation, suicide bombings, public executions, Holy Wars?

Of course there is good in the world, but there is just as much cruelty and hatred. Not at all "evidence" of a benevolent God.

If you were God, don't you think that someone would acknowledge you for the life you live, your friends and family, the food you eat, the clothes on your back and the shelter over your head. Without God, none of this would even be.

According to your beliefs.

I will not be so rude as to ask you to "prove it" but you cannot claim it as absolute fact either.

God worked the world into such a way so that you could exist. You exist because he desired you to exist. So why not thank somebody for your existence this day, and it really can't be your parents because think of the chances that it could not of been you to be born.

If God is all knowing and powerful then he created me knowing I would not be thankful to him for the life I was given. Therefore I cannot be expected to be so.

If God is all knowing and all powerful then free will cannot exist. Otherwise how could God know what people will do?

Either:

God is powerful and knows a lot, but cannot see the future so free will exists.

or

God is all powerful and knowing and it does not.

God is all powerful and planned the world to act in such a way, we are all simply beings with free-will that act during these events and he observes us as we act. So God is all-knowing and all powerful but lets us act individually, besides, if he truly is all-knowing and all powerful then you would not now have the freedom to act against me and would most likely do nothing. We cannot abandon the possibility that both an all powerful all knowing God exist alongside free-will.

 

[BNguyen]

I don't have to give you an answer. I have no evidence to favor one conclusion over any other. There are an infinite number of ways the universe could have started. I don't know which way it was. I wasn't there. Maybe somebody has some evidence to suggest a way, but I don't know of anyone who can look beyond the beginning of time.

What you refuse to do is your problem. Bold text doesn't trump Bayesian epistemology.

There are an infinite number of ways to be wrong, only one way to be correct. You'd be a fool to make a claim you don't have any evidence for.

And if you insist, I will insist you tell me how God began. Its just as useless a question.

After reading many of your remarks, I've come to realize how stupid you truly are. You claim to understand this and that and that this is more likely to happen/exist/etc. than that, but you can't see yourself for how little you know. Just because you've studied this or that you immediately think you know it all, but the truth is that almost nothing in science or these studies is correct because we go by human standards, which are the way they are because we believe them to be true. Wisdom and intellect are illusions.
And by the way, if you can't prove that the universe began because of God, then you can't mark it out as an impossibility.

Wow,way to be respectful. To be honest,I thought you would have been banned or suspended by the time I got back from school,because of your clear lack of respect for anyone with a different opinion and obvious hypocricy.

I find it truly hard to respect anyone who does not respect me on the same level.
If you've read this persons posts, they continuously go against what they said just a minute ago and sometimes in the same post the go against the point that they are trying to make, I was just pointing that out, that this person continues to say that he/she has proof, but then that there is essentially no proof at all for any answer. I just find it hard to respect those who think of themselves as all-knowing but then say that there is no evidence of data to prove that I know it all.

Ummm.. I respect YOU. I just think your ideas are dumb.

And I respect you and think that there is the possibility that your ideas may be true. Don't you think that there might be the possibility that you or I might be false or my ideas might be correct. Respect possibility alongside the person.

 

[Legion]

God is all powerful and planned the world to act in such a way, we are all simply beings with free-will that act during these events and he observes us as we act. So God is all-knowing and all powerful but lets us act individually, besides, if he truly is all-knowing and all powerful then you would not now have the freedom to act against me and would most likely do nothing. We cannot abandon the possibility that both an all powerful all knowing God exist alongside free-will.

If God knows what I am going to say before I even say it then how can I have free will?

God created Hitler KNOWING the monstrosities he would cause, and yet he created him nonetheless. How can he be punished when God was the one who created him? If God didn't create him then he wouldn't have done it and therefore wouldn't need to be punished for it.

It's like me breeding a dog to create puppies, training them to kill humans on sight knowing that the next human they saw would be killed, and then having the dogs put down as punishment for doing something so vicious.

It doesn't make any sense.

 

[caross73]

I don't have to give you an answer. I have no evidence to favor one conclusion over any other. There are an infinite number of ways the universe could have started. I don't know which way it was. I wasn't there. Maybe somebody has some evidence to suggest a way, but I don't know of anyone who can look beyond the beginning of time.

What you refuse to do is your problem. Bold text doesn't trump Bayesian epistemology.

There are an infinite number of ways to be wrong, only one way to be correct. You'd be a fool to make a claim you don't have any evidence for.

And if you insist, I will insist you tell me how God began. Its just as useless a question.

After reading many of your remarks, I've come to realize how stupid you truly are. You claim to understand this and that and that this is more likely to happen/exist/etc. than that, but you can't see yourself for how little you know. Just because you've studied this or that you immediately think you know it all, but the truth is that almost nothing in science or these studies is correct because we go by human standards, which are the way they are because we believe them to be true. Wisdom and intellect are illusions.
And by the way, if you can't prove that the universe began because of God, then you can't mark it out as an impossibility.

Wow,way to be respectful. To be honest,I thought you would have been banned or suspended by the time I got back from school,because of your clear lack of respect for anyone with a different opinion and obvious hypocricy.

I find it truly hard to respect anyone who does not respect me on the same level.
If you've read this persons posts, they continuously go against what they said just a minute ago and sometimes in the same post the go against the point that they are trying to make, I was just pointing that out, that this person continues to say that he/she has proof, but then that there is essentially no proof at all for any answer. I just find it hard to respect those who think of themselves as all-knowing but then say that there is no evidence of data to prove that I know it all.

Ummm.. I respect YOU. I just think your ideas are dumb.

And I respect you and think that there is the possibility that your ideas may be true. Don't you think that there might be the possibility that you or I might be false or my ideas might be correct. Respect possibility alongside the person.

If I didn't have SOME respect for your ideas, I wouldn't bother debating them. You'll notice I don't reply to many of your posts, such as why would God deign to give us proof of his existence, and why same invisible God deserves thanks for Malaria and Cancer.

Come on. No, I don't think there is the slightest chance you are correct. I could be wrong, that doesn't mean you are right.

 

[Kandon Arc]

God is all powerful and planned the world to act in such a way, we are all simply beings with free-will that act during these events and he observes us as we act. So God is all-knowing and all powerful but lets us act individually, besides, if he truly is all-knowing and all powerful then you would not now have the freedom to act against me and would most likely do nothing. We cannot abandon the possibility that both an all powerful all knowing God exist alongside free-will.

If God knows what I am going to say before I even say it then how can I have free will?

God created Hitler KNOWING the monstrosities he would cause, and yet he created him nonetheless. How can he be punished when God was the one who created him? If God didn't create him then he wouldn't have done it and therefore wouldn't need to be punished for it.

It's like me breeding a dog to create puppies, training them to kill humans on sight knowing that the next human they saw would be killed, and then having the dogs put down as punishment for doing something so vicious.

It doesn't make any sense.

Why should it?

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

Well I'm an atheist humanist, and I'd state the principles of humanism as my "bible". According to this philosophy human life is, for want of a better word, sacred. Individuals have a responsibility to act in the best interests of others as well as themselves. My principles are based on acting in a way that has a positive effect on those around me - whatever that way may be.

I do NOT believe that it is justified to arbitrarily take life out of misguided principles of revenge; or that I have the right to stop people from acting as they see fit, provided that in doing so they're not destroying or negatively affecting the lives of others unreasonably.

(One has, of course, to define "unreasonably", but in the end it's difficult to make moral absolutes when it comes to personal circumstances. You have to make the best judgement possible given the information that you have. If you live your life trying to affect the people and society around you in a positive way, and not deny their rights or freedoms, I would consider you a moral person.)

I don't believe in a God, but I would never deny someone's right to preach or practice religion, unless by doing so they're hurting others.

 

[BNguyen]

God is all powerful and planned the world to act in such a way, we are all simply beings with free-will that act during these events and he observes us as we act. So God is all-knowing and all powerful but lets us act individually, besides, if he truly is all-knowing and all powerful then you would not now have the freedom to act against me and would most likely do nothing. We cannot abandon the possibility that both an all powerful all knowing God exist alongside free-will.

If God knows what I am going to say before I even say it then how can I have free will?

God created Hitler KNOWING the monstrosities he would cause, and yet he created him nonetheless. How can he be punished when God was the one who created him? If God didn't create him then he wouldn't have done it and therefore wouldn't need to be punished for it.

It's like me breeding a dog to create puppies, training them to kill humans on sight knowing that the next human they saw would be killed, and then having the dogs put down as punishment for doing something so vicious.

It doesn't make any sense.

He knows what you will say but that doesn't mean that you don't have free will. He just simply knows that doesn't mean that he is controlling.
God created Hitler, but he knew Hitler would turn out this way, but all through life he gave him the chance to change his ways yet he did not, he did not control him. Hitler refused to ask for another chance to mend his ways and so was punished.
For your dogs statement, you trained them to be that way but the dogs attacked independently from your will, killing a person, so you punished them because you wanted them to be something better but instead they turned out to be something else.

If you created someone, gave them free will, and they acted bad, would you give them one more chance to mend their ways? Everyone deserves a second chance, but when someone doesn't use that chance, then they deserve punishment.

 

[BNguyen]

I don't have to give you an answer. I have no evidence to favor one conclusion over any other. There are an infinite number of ways the universe could have started. I don't know which way it was. I wasn't there. Maybe somebody has some evidence to suggest a way, but I don't know of anyone who can look beyond the beginning of time.

What you refuse to do is your problem. Bold text doesn't trump Bayesian epistemology.

There are an infinite number of ways to be wrong, only one way to be correct. You'd be a fool to make a claim you don't have any evidence for.

And if you insist, I will insist you tell me how God began. Its just as useless a question.

After reading many of your remarks, I've come to realize how stupid you truly are. You claim to understand this and that and that this is more likely to happen/exist/etc. than that, but you can't see yourself for how little you know. Just because you've studied this or that you immediately think you know it all, but the truth is that almost nothing in science or these studies is correct because we go by human standards, which are the way they are because we believe them to be true. Wisdom and intellect are illusions.
And by the way, if you can't prove that the universe began because of God, then you can't mark it out as an impossibility.

Wow,way to be respectful. To be honest,I thought you would have been banned or suspended by the time I got back from school,because of your clear lack of respect for anyone with a different opinion and obvious hypocricy.

I find it truly hard to respect anyone who does not respect me on the same level.
If you've read this persons posts, they continuously go against what they said just a minute ago and sometimes in the same post the go against the point that they are trying to make, I was just pointing that out, that this person continues to say that he/she has proof, but then that there is essentially no proof at all for any answer. I just find it hard to respect those who think of themselves as all-knowing but then say that there is no evidence of data to prove that I know it all.

Ummm.. I respect YOU. I just think your ideas are dumb.

And I respect you and think that there is the possibility that your ideas may be true. Don't you think that there might be the possibility that you or I might be false or my ideas might be correct. Respect possibility alongside the person.

If I didn't have SOME respect for your ideas, I wouldn't bother debating them. You'll notice I don't reply to many of your posts, such as why would God deign to give us proof of his existence, and why same invisible God deserves thanks for Malaria and Cancer.

Come on. No, I don't think there is the slightest chance you are correct. I could be wrong, that doesn't mean you are right.

So according to you, only you are actually correct in any sense and that there is absolutely zero chance of anybody even having the possibility of being correct.
You might be wrong, I might be wrong, you might be right or I might be right, we have no way of knowing until after we die. This means that I have as equal a chance as anybody of being correct.
And think about this, maybe Malaria or Cancer are just tests sent by God to test us and see our reactions. Read the Book of Job, the devil wanted to test a man's faith in God and so put these plagues upon him. Cancer and Malaria are tests of our faith, but we have the ability to prevent these plagues from reaching everyone.

 

[caross73]

So according to you, only you are actually correct in any sense and that there is absolutely zero chance of anybody even having the possibility of being correct.

No, there is very nearly zero chance of YOU being correct about this particular thing.

You might be wrong, I might be wrong, you might be right or I might be right, we have no way of knowing until after we die. This means that I have as equal a chance as anybody of being correct.

When you die, there is no YOU left to be right. All these wonderful ideas you have? See, I can map them on an fMRI. I know exactly what is causing them. And when you die, poof, they don't happen any more. So unless my eyes are lying to me (it IS possible, but then its also possible that you aren't even real), what you are describing is nonsense.

And think about this, maybe Malaria or Cancer are just tests sent by God to test us and see our reactions. Read the Book of Job, the devil wanted to test a man's faith in God and so put these plagues upon him. Cancer and Malaria are tests of our faith, but we have the ability to prevent these plagues from reaching everyone.

Why would a perfect God need to test us? He would already know who would pass and who would fail. And what kind of asshole makes a test that causes people to suffer through the actions or inactions of other fallible individuals, when he has the power to do otherwise? Job is a very bad argument for God. After all, who created the Devil in the first place?

 

[BNguyen]

So according to you, only you are actually correct in any sense and that there is absolutely zero chance of anybody even having the possibility of being correct.

No, there is very nearly zero chance of YOU being correct about this particular thing.

You might be wrong, I might be wrong, you might be right or I might be right, we have no way of knowing until after we die. This means that I have as equal a chance as anybody of being correct.

When you die, there is no YOU left to be right. All these wonderful ideas you have? See, I can map them on an fMRI. I know exactly what is causing them. And when you die, poof, they don't happen any more. So unless my eyes are lying to me, what you are describing is nonsense.

And think about this, maybe Malaria or Cancer are just tests sent by God to test us and see our reactions. Read the Book of Job, the devil wanted to test a man's faith in God and so put these plagues upon him. Cancer and Malaria are tests of our faith, but we have the ability to prevent these plagues from reaching everyone.

Why would a perfect God need to test us? He would already know who would pass and who would fail.

Well, If I'm wrong, then you are just as wrong. According to me, you are wrong and everybody is wrong, including myself. There is no correct answer and no atheist can make me feel any different.
Free will is our gift from God, he tests us to see how we will act using our free-will. We are not being controlled, we act.
And just because you can explain something doesn't mean it isn't the will of God. You only understand as far as he allows you to understand, you are not perfect but you act as though you are.

 

[caross73]

Well, If I'm wrong, then you are just as wrong. According to me, you are wrong and everybody is wrong, including myself. There is no correct answer and no atheist can make me feel any different.

If you say so.

Free will is our gift from God, he tests us to see how we will act using our free-will. We are not being controlled, we act.
And just because you can explain something doesn't mean it isn't the will of God. You only understand as far as he allows you to understand, you are not perfect but you act as though you are.

Thats nice that you feel that way. I see no reason to think that that hypothesis is correct over any of the other stories people have made up to escape responsibility for their own situation and actions, or to justify and comfort themselves at the universe's indifference to them.

That thought provides no benefit to me for holding it, makes no testable predictions, its an unthought; there is nothing tying it to reality. It can't be verified in any way, and there are an infinite number of other unthoughts just like it that have just as much supporting them, ie., nothing.

 

[BNguyen]

Thats nice that you feel that way. I see no reason to think that that hypothesis is correct over any of the other stories people have made up to escape responsibility for their own situation and actions, or to justify and comfort themselves at the universe's indifference to them.

That thought provides no benefit to me for holding it, makes no testable predictions, its an unthought. It can't be verified in any way, and there are an infinite number of other unthoughts just like it that have just as much supporting them.[/quote]


I don't lie to hide my life, you dilude yourself into believing that only you are correct so you are actually hiding. And your story has just as much chance of being false as any other.
I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree with it.

 

[caross73]

Thats nice that you feel that way. I see no reason to think that that hypothesis is correct over any of the other stories people have made up to escape responsibility for their own situation and actions, or to justify and comfort themselves at the universe's indifference to them.

That thought provides no benefit to me for holding it, makes no testable predictions, its an unthought. It can't be verified in any way, and there are an infinite number of other unthoughts just like it that have just as much supporting them.

I don't lie to hide my life, you dilude yourself into believing that only you are correct so you are actually hiding. And your story has just as much chance of being false as any other.
I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree with it.

Who is hiding my life? I have examined a great number of religions, and find all of them to be lacking in justification for belief save (perhaps) Zen Buddhism, and its arguable if that is even a religion. I already said I could be wrong and there could be SOMETHING out there. My eyes could indeed be lying to me and you could indeed have found the true church, the one with the right idea.

You can tell yourself whatever you want so that you can live with your tortured and unverified conjecture about reality. I hope it gives you great comfort to know that YOU are the one who is really right, who is put upon by know-it-alls that say that all other such untestable conjectures have ultimately turned out to be false, like all the times a cult has claimed the apocalypse was about to occur. You know that deep down that there is a purpose to your life; you will live eternally in paradise and don't have to actually face the idea that maybe, just maybe, this is all you get.

The Greeks and Romans once felt as you do. How could someone not believe in mighty Zeus. The Egyptians, how could someone not believe in Mighty RA! But your belief is different. I'm very sorry to have troubled you about it.

Edit: I really actually am sorry. I wish that the universe were a more forgiving place and there actually were entities that watched over us and took care of us. And I hate that ultimately I am telling people bad news that they really don't want to hear.